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  #21  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2022, 7:00 PM
jd3189 jd3189 is offline
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Originally Posted by craigs View Post
I wish one of the smaller municipalities in the metropolis would go ahead and up-zone its residential areas to allow for construction of thousands of new housing units--Culver City, San Fernando, Inglewood, or wherever--and beef up transit, pedestrian & bicycling infra, etc. to serve as a model and convince Angelenos that new construction isn't the end of the world.
Yes to this. Just increasing density, mixed use development, and cycling/walkable infrastructure within a mile of LA Metro and/or Metrolink stations would help put a significant dent on the housing crisis.

Most people are never going to own a home in LA. But they could own or rent apartments in the core on reasonable rates that don’t eat up their wages. I would like to live in LA without paying an arm and a leg, enjoying all the amenities while having the ability to save some cash. I know I’m far from being alone in this matter.
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  #22  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2022, 7:00 PM
Emprise du Lion Emprise du Lion is offline
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Originally Posted by sopas ej View Post
From the Los Angeles Times:

They made good money but left L.A. because it didn’t go far enough. Are they gone for good?

BY SUMMER LIN | STAFF WRITER
OCT. 26, 2022 UPDATED 12:36 PM PT

Bethany Jansen and her husband, Andrew, decided to pack up their 500-square-foot Venice apartment and move to Bethany’s hometown near St. Louis and start a new life and business.

Jansen, who was working in downtown Los Angeles before the COVID-19 pandemic, commuted two hours a day. Jansen, 32, and her 34-year-old husband were making about $150,000 combined a year, but they felt it was not enough to afford a house in neighborhoods where they wanted to live.

Now in St. Louis, the couple make less money but said it goes much further — and without the intense commute.

“We’re getting more out of our paycheck, and the quality of life is better because we’re not sitting in a car all day in traffic,” she said. “Working from home let me set my own schedule, and my mental health is a lot better. We’re not making six figures like we were, but it doesn’t matter as much because we can pay for rent and do the things we need to do.”

The Jansens represent one part of the exodus from Los Angeles and other major cities that took place during the pandemic, which opened many opportunities for remote work, as well as sparked deep conversations about what they wanted out of life.

For people of fairly high incomes who left L.A., a big factor was housing prices, which continued to explode during the pandemic and left them wondering whether they would ever be able to buy a home here.

“It was a factor knowing we were never going to be able to afford a house,” she said. “People are buying a shack in L.A. for $700,000, renovating it and selling it for $1.5 million. No matter how hard we work, we’ll never be able to afford that.”

The couple now pay $1,300 a month to live in a three-bedroom house that she said felt like a “mansion” compared to their one-bedroom L.A. apartment, which costs about $1,800 a month to rent.
Obviously metro St. Louis is going to be far cheaper than metro Los Angeles, but I am curious where they actually ended up. The article at first says, “near St. Louis,” but then switches to, “in St. Louis,” and you can barely rent a SFH with at least three bedrooms in St. Louis proper for $1,300 or less per month. I put the criteria into Zillow and I got all of three matches in the city. My guess is that they’re in an even less expensive suburb somewhere in Missouri or Illinois.
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  #23  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2022, 8:38 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Originally Posted by LosAngelesSportsFan View Post
We have no need for more people, especially in the US, considering how Americans are horrible for the planet in regards to resource usage. Enough is enough
That makes no sense. If the problem is Americans consuming too many resources, the solution is to reduce consumption, not to stop minting Americans.
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  #24  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2022, 8:40 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Originally Posted by bossabreezes View Post
Crazy how to some think just because you're an immigrant means you support illegal and/or mass immigration.
If you're an immigrant, you should absolutely support immigration. It would be pretty much insane to say "yes I'm an immigrant, and I oppose immigration".

Actually, it's much simpler. Given the nature of the American experiment, where immigration is the nation's lifeblood, it's insane to be American and to oppose immigration.

The terms "illegal" and "mass" are just alt-right buzzwords. The issue is immigration. Should it be frozen or not? Very clear policy differences here in the U.S. Mass is a completely subjective term, and bizarre in the context of minimal immigration relative to other first world nations, illegal is strictly due to one party's intentional policy measures, where illegals are simultaneously encouraged and excoriated, and all attempts at immigration reform are blocked.
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  #25  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2022, 8:46 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Originally Posted by bossabreezes View Post
I am. I came here before the housing crisis and before borders were completely open for people to come illegally and disrespect the process and the law.
So you came prior to 1492? Wow.

There weren't even immigration visas until the Great Depression. There weren't even formal border controls until a generation ago. The concept of a militarized border began under Clinton, more or less. There has probably never been a time in recorded history when the U.S. had fewer undocumented immigrants as right now.
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  #26  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2022, 9:54 PM
FromSD FromSD is offline
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Meh, I read the LA Times every day and articles like this one are merely a part of the mix--and appropriately so. As the recently departed public historian Mike Davis correctly noted over the last four decades, the Los Angeles dialectic is one of boosterism versus a darker realism about the fundamental forces that shape this place. For example, for many longstanding reasons, there aren't enough homes for everyone who wants to live here, so prices are inflated--which prices lots of people out. We cannot begin to fix that problem if we ignore it because it isn't boosterish enough.
Sorry if I came off as wanting the LA Times to return to its early 20th century role as a civic booster and shill for LA developer interests. I only mentioned the boosterism to contrast it with recent barrage of negative stories about people who have left the city for greener pastures elsewhere. And I agree that we shouldn't ignore LA's housing issues, or the state's as a whole. I just don't think a story like this sheds much light on the problem. It is at best analysis by anecdote. Contact a bunch of people who left LA and ask them why they left. To me it's obvious that the major issue is the cost of housing, though people in other stories may also cite guns, woke culture and the state's slide into socialism. But this story really doesn't address how the housing became so expensive, or what the city and the state can realistically do to make it cheaper.

Other recent LA Times stories have taken a less anecdotal approach and have done a better job analyzing root causes. A series of stories a week ago showed how LA was both the most over-crowded and most sprawling metro in the country. These stories cited the prevalence of single family zoning, the hostility to public housing that grew after WWII, the move to downzone in the 70s and 80s, and the fact that LA is a city with both high and very low paying jobs. Median household income in LA County is slightly lower than Cook County's while housing costs in the latter are 60% cheaper.

https://www.latimes.com/california/s...ng-los-angeles

https://www.latimes.com/california/s...-united-states

These stories, especially when they detail the real effects of decisions made decades ago, are more useful than interviews of LA expats living in the Salt Lake City suburbs.
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  #27  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2022, 9:55 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by LosAngelesSportsFan View Post
We have no need for more people, especially in the US, considering how Americans are horrible for the planet in regards to resource usage. Enough is enough
Americans are specifically horrible for the planet? Something tells me the planet is going to be just fine but hey if you want to reduce your lifestyle and remove yourself from the gene pool I will not stop you.
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  #28  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2022, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
That makes no sense. If the problem is Americans consuming too many resources, the solution is to reduce consumption, not to stop minting Americans.
The easiest way to reduce consumption is to not mint new people
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  #29  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2022, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by FromSD View Post
Sorry if I came off as wanting the LA Times to return to its early 20th century role as a civic booster and shill for LA developer interests. I only mentioned the boosterism to contrast it with recent barrage of negative stories about people who have left the city for greener pastures elsewhere. And I agree that we shouldn't ignore LA's housing issues, or the state's as a whole. I just don't think a story like this sheds much light on the problem. It is at best analysis by anecdote. Contact a bunch of people who left LA and ask them why they left. To me it's obvious that the major issue is the cost of housing, though people in other stories may also cite guns, woke culture and the state's slide into socialism. But this story really doesn't address how the housing became so expensive, or what the city and the state can realistically do to make it cheaper.

Other recent LA Times stories have taken a less anecdotal approach and have done a better job analyzing root causes. A series of stories a week ago showed how LA was both the most over-crowded and most sprawling metro in the country. These stories cited the prevalence of single family zoning, the hostility to public housing that grew after WWII, the move to downzone in the 70s and 80s, and the fact that LA is a city with both high and very low paying jobs. Median household income in LA County is slightly lower than Cook County's while housing costs in the latter are 60% cheaper.

https://www.latimes.com/california/s...ng-los-angeles

https://www.latimes.com/california/s...-united-states

These stories, especially when they detail the real effects of decisions made decades ago, are more useful than interviews of LA expats living in the Salt Lake City suburbs.
Yes, that was my point--the LAT covers various aspects of problems like LA's high housing costs, including analysis of the causes (the articles linked in your post) of insufficient new housing construction as well as interviews with people who have been severely impacted by high housing costs and moved out of Southern California entirely as a result.
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  #30  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2022, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
Americans are specifically horrible for the planet? Something tells me the planet is going to be just fine but hey if you want to reduce your lifestyle and remove yourself from the gene pool I will not stop you.
Do you realize how much higher the typical carbon footprint of Americans is compared to the rest of the world? Things like online shipping, over eating, etc? It's not rocket science. The planet absolutely does not need more people.
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  #31  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2022, 11:35 PM
MAC123 MAC123 is offline
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The planet is a gigantic rock. It doesn't really care.
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  #32  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2022, 3:35 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by LosAngelesSportsFan View Post
Do you realize how much higher the typical carbon footprint of Americans is compared to the rest of the world? Things like online shipping, over eating, etc? It's not rocket science. The planet absolutely does not need more people.
FWIW, I suspect we actually reduced our carbon footprint with online shopping.
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  #33  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2022, 3:45 PM
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FWIW, I suspect we actually reduced our carbon footprint with online shopping.
Possibly, but I don't think so. Shipping these products from Asia to the US via ship then truck to a warehouse, then plane to the destination region, then truck again to a warehouse and then another truck to the final destination doesn't seem very carbon friendly.
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  #34  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2022, 3:45 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Originally Posted by LosAngelesSportsFan View Post
The easiest way to reduce consumption is to not mint new people
That's fine, but has nothing to do with immigration. Those aren't new people.

If you want fewer births, don't have kids. But existing people should have opportunities for a secure and prosperous life. And the U.S. should obviously be self-interested in maintaining its dynamism and historical advantages.
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  #35  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2022, 4:19 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by LosAngelesSportsFan View Post
Possibly, but I don't think so. Shipping these products from Asia to the US via ship then truck to a warehouse, then plane to the destination region, then truck again to a warehouse and then another truck to the final destination doesn't seem very carbon friendly.
I don't think the supply chain has really changed, so that's the same as it has been for about the past 30 years. What has changed is that goods are being shipped to consumers in bulk instead of consumers traveling to physical stores in their personal automobiles (at least in car centric cities). In places that were more mass transit oriented we probably have increased the carbon footprint. But 95% of America is auto-centric so whatever increase did come from NYC and Chicago was definitely offset by fewer trips in the medium density areas.
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  #36  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2022, 9:44 PM
ocman ocman is offline
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I don’t know what more can be said about this subject. But LA Times just had a piece that should be really enlightening for people to understand the political culture of LA. I bolded some parts for a condensed read, but the story is too good not to read the whole thing.

Column: A $2-million ‘bike lane to nowhere’ symbolizes L.A.'s outrageous dysfunction
Quote:
On a short stretch of Santa Monica Boulevard in Hollywood is a sidewalk cutout that was billed as a bike lane.

A short half-block long, it took about 18 months to complete and cost roughly $2 million, and yet it is not marked as a bike lane and does not connect to one.
“It’s a bike lane to nowhere,” said Stephen Burn, general manager of building services at the Los Angeles LGBT Center, which was required to complete and pay for the project as a condition of approval.

Burn apologized for calling it a stupid waste of time and money that delayed the opening of badly needed supportive housing and social services, but no apology was necessary. He said he honestly wanted to pull his hair out at times when dealing with various government agencies, and after he shared the details, I wanted to pull my hair out.

I’m bringing this up now, on the eve of elections, for a reason.
The campaign focus on strategies around homelessness, crime and housing in the mayoral and City Council elections is certainly warranted. But let’s not forget that L.A. is desperate for a mayor and other leaders who will crack down on ineptitude, call out nonsense, and deliver basic services.

I hear frequently from frustrated taxpayers who get the runaround, or no response at all, when they try to get attention for various municipal breakdowns.
In recent days, a North Hollywood resident complained of encampments multiplying despite the promise of relief after the opening of a tiny home village she supported, and she asked, “When did our city officials become indifferent to their constituents’ pleas for help?”
A Venice resident sent me photos of knee-high trash on Lincoln Boulevard and said he’d made multiple efforts to get someone to clean it up. Finally, it was cleared. But 24 hours later, another landfill appeared. “The lack of attention, basic services and sanitation continues to be untenable,” he said.

In a city that has paid out tens of millions of dollars in settlements for injuries caused by ruptured sidewalks, I pulled up to a doozy a few days ago on Vineland Avenue in North Hollywood. The sidewalk looked like a skateboard ramp in a “Jackass” movie.
I could go on and on, but let’s get back to Santa Monica Boulevard and the LGBT Center, which I first toured a few weeks ago with mayoral candidate Karen Bass. She sighed and shook her head when staffers told her about the headaches and mounting costs involving the carved-out lane that fronts the building’s property, and she asked if anyone at City Hall had come to their rescue.
There was a bit of help, but not enough. I was curious to find out more, so I later returned to the center to hear the details.

A lot of new buildings in Los Angeles are set back farther from the street, but not necessarily for the sake of bikes. Critics, in fact, have said the real goal is to make more room for vehicles.
At the center, though, Burn was told from the beginning by public officials that his building’s sidewalk carve-out was part of a long-term bike lane project, and a long trail of documents back him up. By the way, I think the city needs more bike lanes, but design and location are key, and this project flunks both tests.
Burn and I paced off the supposed bike lane, which is about 150 feet long, starting mid-block and ending at McCadden Place. There’s no bikeway just east of there, outside a 7-Eleven strip mall, and no bike lane just west of there, where there’s a pawn shop and a doughnut shop.
There weren’t many cyclists in sight — possibly because it’s dangerous to pedal along a busy thoroughfare with a stop-and-go shoulder. The carve-out appears to be used more as a right-turn lane for cars and trucks, which makes it all the more dangerous for bikes.

But the larger point, aside from the absurdity of considering that location for a bike lane, is the rigmarole the center was subjected to.
Burn told me the land for the center was purchased in 2012, with full support from local officials and the community, and yet 10 years later, the paperwork is not complete. The first snag was a zoning change requirement, and Burn said that turned into a $1-million process.
Construction didn’t begin until 2016, and that’s when the bike lane came up. Burn said that stretch of Santa Monica Boulevard is technically a state road, and he was told that Caltrans and the city wanted a bike lane there, and that the property owner would have to foot the bill.
Center officials sought help from then-Councilman David Ryu, whose chief of staff, Sarah Dusseault, recalls thinking it was inappropriate to demand that a nonprofit provider of urgently needed services be on the hook for a bike lane in the midst of a humanitarian crisis.

“Why is this not a state infrastructure issue?” said Dusseault, who called both the demands and the design “all sorts of wrong.”
Dusseault went to work hunting for money to help out, but costs only grew when the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power got involved. Two wooden utility poles, with overhead lines, stood in the center of the proposed lane and had to be removed.
Power would have to be run underground, Burn was told, and the center would have to pay for a backup power line to serve the evolving needs of the surrounding neighborhood. Dusseault says that seemed to be an unfair burden, but there was no getting around it.

So the DWP went to work, but the madness did not end.
“The actual work of undergrounding the power didn’t take long,” Burn said. “But the poles didn’t get removed from the street, so we couldn’t complete the roadwork. … We didn’t know what the issue was and kept asking for them to come and take the poles away, but mostly our requests were unanswered.”
Burn was eventually told the overhead wires included “internet connectivity” lines and “DWP had nothing to do with it and couldn’t find anyone to say, ‘Those are our wires.’”

Months passed. Insurance costs rose. Financial juggling was required, even though Dusseault dug out some public money to help defray the cost of the project. Permits expired and applications had to be resubmitted. Aspects of the overall development of the center were delayed.
Dozens of housing units for seniors and youths, along with an array of social services, were finally in place by last year, and the LGBT Center is helping to save and rebuild lives on a daily basis. But full operation was delayed by close to a year, Burn said, and when people are shocked to hear the high cost of homeless housing units and how long it takes to put people into beds, it’s because of just what the LGBT Center has experienced.

The saddest thing is that these kinds of problems are not the exception in Los Angeles; they’re the rule. I hear about them all the time from service providers and developers who say it’s not this bad in other cities. They speak in tortured tones about what Burn called a “Kafkaesque” experience in managing the often conflicting demands of multiple agencies.
One inspector would say do it this way, another inspector would show up and contradict the other inspector. City electrical inspectors said they were available only after or before regular work hours, often at around 4 a.m., when overtime pay applies.

No fewer than nine funding sources were used in the LGBT project, each with its own attorneys and rules. Burn said two cutaway ramps for wheelchair access on McCadden have been ordered redone three times because of conflicting inspections and demands, adding about $100,000 in costs.

“This is not free money,” Burn said of cost overruns of at least $2 million on all aspects of the project. “It means not spending it on feeding people, on housing them, on helping them with legal issues or domestic violence, on teaching them to read.”

This villainous level of bureaucratic dysfunction and political impotence is stupefying, and over the years we’ve heard plenty of candidates vow to clear out the rot, streamline services, and finally make City Hall work for the people.
Karen Bass and Rick Caruso follow in that tradition of big promises, and whoever wins, we’ll be watching.

Last edited by ocman; Oct 30, 2022 at 11:27 PM.
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  #37  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2022, 10:03 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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That sounds like basically every project in the U.S. nowadays. Our level of national dysfunction re. getting anything done is shameful and absurd.

Advocates have tried to get a bike lane installed on the Verrazano Bridge (bridge connecting Brooklyn to Staten Island) since forever. In their 60's-era wisdom, they "forgot" to have any pedestrian or bike access in a city where most households don't have vehicles. Now the MTA claims that bike/pedestrian access will cost a cool $320-$370 million. For a freaking bike lane.

Can someone just go out in the middle of the night and repaint the lanes, please?
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  #38  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2022, 11:26 PM
mrnyc mrnyc is offline
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^ why bother? the bridge lanes are already closed for one reason or the other constantly.
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  #39  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2022, 2:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
That sounds like basically every project in the U.S. nowadays. Our level of national dysfunction re. getting anything done is shameful and absurd.

Advocates have tried to get a bike lane installed on the Verrazano Bridge (bridge connecting Brooklyn to Staten Island) since forever. In their 60's-era wisdom, they "forgot" to have any pedestrian or bike access in a city where most households don't have vehicles. Now the MTA claims that bike/pedestrian access will cost a cool $320-$370 million. For a freaking bike lane.

Can someone just go out in the middle of the night and repaint the lanes, please?

Is insanity and it's going to be the downfall of this country
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  #40  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2022, 3:08 AM
Shawn Shawn is offline
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Originally Posted by LosAngelesSportsFan View Post
The easiest way to reduce consumption is to not mint new people
Japan, Korea (take your pick of which), China, and Taiwan would love - love - to have a "too many people" problem.

Our inverted demo pyramids mean our versions of Social Security will necessarily become insolvent before most of the people paying into them will ever see money back, myself included.

There are wide areas of Japan depopulating so fast that local governments will give you free land and everything already built on it; you just need to commit to paying property taxes moving forward.

Native-born Americans, of every race, have below replacement-level birthrates. The only reason we are not in the same existential situation as East Asia is because of direct immigration and because of 1st-gen and some 2nd-gen birthrates being above replacement level.

If you enjoy living in a liberal market economy, population growth is a required input.
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