HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Global Projects & Construction > General Development


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #17661  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2022, 12:11 AM
summersm343's Avatar
summersm343 summersm343 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 16,405
^^jesus… soon there’s going to be nothing left on Walnut Street.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17662  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2022, 12:33 AM
mcgrath618's Avatar
mcgrath618 mcgrath618 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Powelton Village, Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 3,103
The market will adjust. Smart landlords will offer lower rent to attract tenants. As long as they don't take terrible tenants akin to Spirit Halloween Walnut will rebound in the next few years.

I don't know if anyone else felt like this, but I have always felt like the 1600 and 1700 blocks felt like a weird limbo between dead and alive--even before the pandemic. I am interested in how this will evolve and change as some of the tenants leave and new ones come in.
__________________
Philadelphia Transportation Thread: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=164129
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17663  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2022, 1:01 AM
cardeza cardeza is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 926
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17664  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2022, 3:20 AM
skyhigh07 skyhigh07 is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 428
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcgrath618 View Post
The market will adjust. Smart landlords will offer lower rent to attract tenants. As long as they don't take terrible tenants akin to Spirit Halloween Walnut will rebound in the next few years.

I don't know if anyone else felt like this, but I have always felt like the 1600 and 1700 blocks felt like a weird limbo between dead and alive--even before the pandemic. I am interested in how this will evolve and change as some of the tenants leave and new ones come in.
I sure hope so. This is starting to get ridiculous. Seems like developers are going gangbusters lately while retailers are fleeing. Weird.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17665  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2022, 4:57 AM
PurpleWhiteOut PurpleWhiteOut is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 406
[delete, double post]
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17666  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2022, 4:59 AM
PurpleWhiteOut PurpleWhiteOut is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyhigh07 View Post
I sure hope so. This is starting to get ridiculous. Seems like developers are going gangbusters lately while retailers are fleeing. Weird.
Honestly, they should start to divest from big brands. Local business corridors are doing much better, and younger people don't care as much for luxury brands you can find anywhere vs a unique experience. While the demographics of the neighborhood skew toward old school luxury brands, younger visitors and shoppers might be looking to have a local experience. Even just rebranding as a luxe diner/cafe corridor might be a good idea with some of the fashion mixed in. I don't know if they can pay the rent needed to cover the taxes, but I can't imagine empty storefronts are any better.

Walnut and Chestnut honestly were having problems before the pandemic as well, so maybe the problem is that it is out of step with the contemporary consumer, especially when fashion and goods have moved online. Maybe if it built off the success of Parc and became the strip of luxury dining it could do better. While food is oversaturated in general, I feel Philly lacks some truly high end food options that are still accessible street-side. Even a lot of places around Rittenhouse are more fast casual. No matter what, I think the landlords need to think outside the box, because on top of the pandemic, the Fashion District poached some of the fast fashion stores.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17667  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2022, 1:43 PM
Skintreesnail Skintreesnail is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 442
^^^ agree with that. Rent would need to come way down I assume. Which I guess would bring the real estate value down too. But assuming the office commuter population is permanently lower, which I really think it is, then it would need to. Unless the city can fill the gap with residents and tourism.

Honestly, I would rather that whole stretch be more diverse instead of just luxury fashion.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17668  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2022, 2:35 PM
Justin7 Justin7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcgrath618 View Post
I don't know if anyone else felt like this, but I have always felt like the 1600 and 1700 blocks felt like a weird limbo between dead and alive--even before the pandemic. I am interested in how this will evolve and change as some of the tenants leave and new ones come in.
1400 and 1500 aren't exactly in great shape either. It was kind of a mess before Covid and has obviously taken a huge hit since. Bank branches and cell phone stores are a plague, but at least there are low end national food chain options! Who actually wants to spend time there?

Still can't get my head around that Verizon/Cheesecake building.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17669  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2022, 4:02 PM
mcgrath618's Avatar
mcgrath618 mcgrath618 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Powelton Village, Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 3,103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin7 View Post
1400 and 1500 aren't exactly in great shape either. It was kind of a mess before Covid and has obviously taken a huge hit since. Bank branches and cell phone stores are a plague, but at least there are low end national food chain options! Who actually wants to spend time there?

Still can't get my head around that Verizon/Cheesecake building.
That corner is some of the most valuable real estate in the city. How is it that they built a 2 story building there solely for Cheesecake Factory? It should be a 200-300' residential building with ground floor retail!
__________________
Philadelphia Transportation Thread: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=164129
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17670  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2022, 5:11 PM
skyhigh07 skyhigh07 is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 428
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin7 View Post
1400 and 1500 aren't exactly in great shape either. It was kind of a mess before Covid and has obviously taken a huge hit since. Bank branches and cell phone stores are a plague, but at least there are low end national food chain options! Who actually wants to spend time there?

Still can't get my head around that Verizon/Cheesecake building.
If I recall correctly, the reason why Walnut has become “Bank Branch Row” over the last few years is that a ban that had prohibited them was recently lifted. I suspect we’ll be getting a few more before all’s said and done.

According to the Shakespeare & Co listing, rent there is $30,000/month. I’m not familiar with commercial real estate but that seems extremely high. Maybe landlords are still confident that if they wait long enough they can snag a high end retailer willing to pay that. I have a feeling more would come if prices dropped. Sugar Factory would have been a decent addition to Walnut but instead they chose the 1200 block of Chestnut, which has been rather dead as of late.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17671  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2022, 7:12 PM
TonyTone's Avatar
TonyTone TonyTone is offline
Low Life
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Philly Metro DE-PA-NJ
Posts: 735
Hey everyone Happy New Year. I wish everyone Big money and a great 2022. I haven't been on lately because I just moved into my new Apt in Fishtown and had no wifi, well I still don't but im using my hotspot till Friday.

Anyway while we are on Walnut St.

Im always confused when we are saying walnut is dead? it's one of the most retail oriented strips in the city I see few vaccines besides the demolished burnt down building that looks like its about to start construction.

Right now it's even decorated with the Christmas trees and lights all the way to Rittenhouse. it's probably the most taken care of strip in the city next to Chestnut and Broad.

Shit we even have a Apple store so that should be a great indicator of how good Walnut is even after the looting.
__________________
Promoting Cities since 1998!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17672  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2022, 7:56 PM
William Van Alen William Van Alen is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 33
Long time lurker, first time poster here. Took the name of the Chrysler Building's architect as my username because it's my favorite skyscraper and this is skyscraperpage lol.

I used to work in downtown economic development (can't say more than that) so I'd like to chime in with a few points re: West Walnut.

Somebody mentioned that there needs to be more collaboration between the various agencies/bids/interest groups. Couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, there is zero collaboration to speak of and there probably never will be as long as each stakeholder continues to see any other group as stepping on its toes. Each agency/group "stays in their lane" so to speak and they do not talk to each other much at all. It was honestly quite sad to see.

The Verizon/Cheesecake factory property is home to the most expensive retail lease in the city. That Verizon pays a lot of rent, which I suppose justifies the absurd underutilization of that prime corner.

Unfortunately, a lot of the luxury stores that some people would like to see in CC are already in KOP. Most of those retailers still don't see Philly as a two store market. That may change in the future with all the new luxury towers like Arthaus, Laurel, and potentially "Harper Square", but until they start to see more wealthy people in the Center City market, I really don't think we'll get any luxury retail any time soon. Frankly, I've never thought it's important. We could have a perfectly good retail scene without having a proper "high street", but everybody has a different opinion on this. I know the high street topic has been hashed out on here many times (like I said, long time lurker) so I won't say any more on that.

Most landlords, as has been mentioned, are holding out for something bigger and better in CC and seem to have enough capital to wait however long they need to. I remember speaking with some landlords who were so nonchalant about filling their retail spaces that I was genuinely kind of shocked, since they're losing tens of thousands of dollars in cash flow each year that those spaces sit vacant. I think part of the problem has been that for the last few years (before the pandemic, of course) the primary tenants looking for new space were food-related. Usually either fast casual lunch spots for office workers or more upscale restaurants. If your space isn't equipped for food service, that's an expensive fit-out that a lot of landlords aren't willing to take on if another massive corporation (like Verizon at 15th) is willing to come in a few years down the road and pay 2-3x market rent for your space. That's just a much better deal for the landlords in the long run so they're willing to make that bet and play the long game. Same thing seems to be happening a lot in other high end retail districts, especially in Manhattan.

Lastly, there used to be a zoning overlay that prohibited bank branches and several other types of uses on parts of Walnut (and maybe Chestnut?) in CC. When re-zonings were done under the Nutter admin., those were scrapped in favor of greater uniformity in the zoning code. Overlays seem to be back in style, for better or for worse, and I know there's some push from certain parts of the business community to get that overlay back. Not sure if any councilmembers feel that pressure enough to actually bring it up, but maybe somebody will eventually. Seemed to do a pretty good job of keeping CC strictly for retail/dining.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17673  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2022, 8:18 PM
TempleGuy1000 TempleGuy1000 is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Posts: 578
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Van Alen View Post
Unfortunately, a lot of the luxury stores that some people would like to see in CC are already in KOP. Most of those retailers still don't see Philly as a two store market. That may change in the future with all the new luxury towers like Arthaus, Laurel, and potentially "Harper Square", but until they start to see more wealthy people in the Center City market, I really don't think we'll get any luxury retail any time soon. Frankly, I've never thought it's important. We could have a perfectly good retail scene without having a proper "high street", but everybody has a different opinion on this. I know the high street topic has been hashed out on here many times (like I said, long time lurker) so I won't say any more on that.
Thanks for the insight W.V.A., it is as many of us have suspected. I also have never thought the lack of a "5th Ave." type stretch really mattered all that much. However, as more time goes on, I do believe it has a bit of a cascading effect on the whole retail landscape where middle-tier retailers don't even make the plunge and we are left with basically just outlets. I have made a conscience effort to buy more things in the city recently just because I worry more might close.

Not to bounce around topics too much too, because I do believe it's related, but saying "luxury brands don't think philly is a two store town" really makes me despise KOP even more and I truly believe the rail line to it is a net negative for the city and region as a whole (especially considering the price tag and what it could alternatively be used for).

Last edited by TempleGuy1000; Jan 4, 2022 at 9:21 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17674  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2022, 8:30 PM
iheartphilly's Avatar
iheartphilly iheartphilly is offline
Philly Rising Up!
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: motherEarth
Posts: 2,982
Boyds is still on 18th/Chestnut and they are high end.

I'm of the mindset Walnut from Broad St. to 21st should have luxury stores, but maybe other dynamics have changed this as previously mentioned. And, when did the Tiffany store leave the city location?

And I once heard Saks in Bala Cynwyd gets more than half their customers from Philly. So go figured...there's demand, but why Walnut is failing is weird.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17675  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2022, 9:15 PM
PHLtoNYC PHLtoNYC is online now
Chris
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: New York city
Posts: 1,018
Quote:
Originally Posted by PurpleWhiteOut View Post
Honestly, they should start to divest from big brands. Local business corridors are doing much better, and younger people don't care as much for luxury brands you can find anywhere vs a unique experience. While the demographics of the neighborhood skew toward old school luxury brands, younger visitors and shoppers might be looking to have a local experience. Even just rebranding as a luxe diner/cafe corridor might be a good idea with some of the fashion mixed in. I don't know if they can pay the rent needed to cover the taxes, but I can't imagine empty storefronts are any better.

Walnut and Chestnut honestly were having problems before the pandemic as well, so maybe the problem is that it is out of step with the contemporary consumer, especially when fashion and goods have moved online. Maybe if it built off the success of Parc and became the strip of luxury dining it could do better. While food is oversaturated in general, I feel Philly lacks some truly high end food options that are still accessible street-side. Even a lot of places around Rittenhouse are more fast casual. No matter what, I think the landlords need to think outside the box, because on top of the pandemic, the Fashion District poached some of the fast fashion stores.
What exactly do you mean by the bold part? Just curious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartphilly View Post
Boyds is still on 18th/Chestnut and they are high end.

I'm of the mindset Walnut from Broad St. to 21st should have luxury stores, but maybe other dynamics have changed this as previously mentioned. And, when did the Tiffany store leave the city location?

And I once heard Saks in Bala Cynwyd gets more than half their customers from Philly. So go figured...there's demand, but why Walnut is failing is weird.
Tiffany's moved to 1715 Walnut, the old Talbots or Loft space.

And while I agree Walnut should more high-end options, I look at Center City retail in general. Losing basic (yet solid) stores like Barbour, Zara, Banana Republic, potentially Free People and even Williams Sonoma (which I love) is disappointing. I am not asking for Gucci or Fendi, but a solid group of mid-level stores and more home stores would be nice.

Maybe it's just me, but I am at either Bloomingdales, Saks, Crate & Barrel, Williams Sonoma, Container Store, etc. every week lol. I'd be kinda lost without all the options a quick walk or subway ride away (granted I live in Manhattan and just moved to a new apt). But I would hate going to KoP all the time, and online is great, but I am a young person not reliant on online shopping (crazy I know).

But o well, Center City is doing great and still in recovery mode, and I love walking around Center City (and the food scene is better than Manhattan). I visit whenever I can and always volunteer to take on Philadelphia projects at my work, so I can visit, lol. And maybe the coming years will bring new commercial energy, especially as more apartments and condos come online.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17676  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2022, 9:26 PM
summersm343's Avatar
summersm343 summersm343 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 16,405
Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartphilly View Post
Boyds is still on 18th/Chestnut and they are high end.

I'm of the mindset Walnut from Broad St. to 21st should have luxury stores, but maybe other dynamics have changed this as previously mentioned. And, when did the Tiffany store leave the city location?

And I once heard Saks in Bala Cynwyd gets more than half their customers from Philly. So go figured...there's demand, but why Walnut is failing is weird.
Tiffany & Co. moved to the 1700 block of Walnut.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17677  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2022, 9:27 PM
summersm343's Avatar
summersm343 summersm343 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 16,405
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Van Alen View Post
Long time lurker, first time poster here. Took the name of the Chrysler Building's architect as my username because it's my favorite skyscraper and this is skyscraperpage lol.

I used to work in downtown economic development (can't say more than that) so I'd like to chime in with a few points re: West Walnut.

Somebody mentioned that there needs to be more collaboration between the various agencies/bids/interest groups. Couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, there is zero collaboration to speak of and there probably never will be as long as each stakeholder continues to see any other group as stepping on its toes. Each agency/group "stays in their lane" so to speak and they do not talk to each other much at all. It was honestly quite sad to see.

The Verizon/Cheesecake factory property is home to the most expensive retail lease in the city. That Verizon pays a lot of rent, which I suppose justifies the absurd underutilization of that prime corner.

Unfortunately, a lot of the luxury stores that some people would like to see in CC are already in KOP. Most of those retailers still don't see Philly as a two store market. That may change in the future with all the new luxury towers like Arthaus, Laurel, and potentially "Harper Square", but until they start to see more wealthy people in the Center City market, I really don't think we'll get any luxury retail any time soon. Frankly, I've never thought it's important. We could have a perfectly good retail scene without having a proper "high street", but everybody has a different opinion on this. I know the high street topic has been hashed out on here many times (like I said, long time lurker) so I won't say any more on that.

Most landlords, as has been mentioned, are holding out for something bigger and better in CC and seem to have enough capital to wait however long they need to. I remember speaking with some landlords who were so nonchalant about filling their retail spaces that I was genuinely kind of shocked, since they're losing tens of thousands of dollars in cash flow each year that those spaces sit vacant. I think part of the problem has been that for the last few years (before the pandemic, of course) the primary tenants looking for new space were food-related. Usually either fast casual lunch spots for office workers or more upscale restaurants. If your space isn't equipped for food service, that's an expensive fit-out that a lot of landlords aren't willing to take on if another massive corporation (like Verizon at 15th) is willing to come in a few years down the road and pay 2-3x market rent for your space. That's just a much better deal for the landlords in the long run so they're willing to make that bet and play the long game. Same thing seems to be happening a lot in other high end retail districts, especially in Manhattan.

Lastly, there used to be a zoning overlay that prohibited bank branches and several other types of uses on parts of Walnut (and maybe Chestnut?) in CC. When re-zonings were done under the Nutter admin., those were scrapped in favor of greater uniformity in the zoning code. Overlays seem to be back in style, for better or for worse, and I know there's some push from certain parts of the business community to get that overlay back. Not sure if any councilmembers feel that pressure enough to actually bring it up, but maybe somebody will eventually. Seemed to do a pretty good job of keeping CC strictly for retail/dining.
Thanks for the overview. Great post!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17678  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2022, 9:31 PM
summersm343's Avatar
summersm343 summersm343 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 16,405
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyTone View Post
Hey everyone Happy New Year. I wish everyone Big money and a great 2022. I haven't been on lately because I just moved into my new Apt in Fishtown and had no wifi, well I still don't but im using my hotspot till Friday.

Anyway while we are on Walnut St.

Im always confused when we are saying walnut is dead? it's one of the most retail oriented strips in the city I see few vaccines besides the demolished burnt down building that looks like its about to start construction.

Right now it's even decorated with the Christmas trees and lights all the way to Rittenhouse. it's probably the most taken care of strip in the city next to Chestnut and Broad.

Shit we even have a Apple store so that should be a great indicator of how good Walnut is even after the looting.
The 1500 and 1600 blocks of Walnut are actually in pretty good shape with only a few vacancies. The Apple store is on the 1600 block. The 1400 block is almost entirely empty. The 1700 block is half dead. The south side of the block has the huge empty lot now, and the old Wells Fargo space/nightclub space next to that is empty. On the north side of the block, every single space now is empty between Tiffany & Co and AKA Rittenhouse except for Steve Madden. There's 6 or 7 empty retail spaces on the North side of the block. The 1700 block of Walnut should be the nicest part of Walnunt Street being so close to the square.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17679  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2022, 9:31 PM
iheartphilly's Avatar
iheartphilly iheartphilly is offline
Philly Rising Up!
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: motherEarth
Posts: 2,982
Quote:
Originally Posted by summersm343 View Post
Tiffany & Co. moved to the 1700 block of Walnut.
Ah, I see...cool...went in where the old Zara use to be.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17680  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2022, 10:52 PM
Vince_ Vince_ is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 154
The massive vacant trash filled lot at 17th and Walnut where those buildings were lit on fire is not a good look. Also the city/neighborhood association should try and get a monthly event like First Friday in Old City. Imagine Walnut closed from 15th to 19th on the first Saturday of each month. Saturday makes most sense because that's when the vendors set up all around Rittenhouse Square. The sidewalks are pretty narrow and strolling in the street would be nice. But ultimately something has to give with the rents...
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Global Projects & Construction > General Development
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 6:05 PM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.