PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[mih216]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

The town homes fronting Columbus Blvd. and facing the Delaware River and Camden are elevated off the street level. I would say 12 ft off street level. Also, these homes were pre-fabricated in a warehouse and literally stacked on top of each other. The town homes in the rear of the property were built on site with lumber and framed out. In any case, I'm under impressed by them. They are bisected on one side by I-95 and the other by Columbus Blvd. I assumed it will be noisy unless there were sound mitigation done with the type of insulation and windows installed.

The first floor is 12' above the street because of flood plain regulations. The wall along Delaware Ave will have a couple of levels of landscaped terraces and steps. It should look pretty nice along the street. A section of Fitzwater Street extends E-W through the site and Swanson is extended N-S. The site plan calls for a landscaped walking path and a couple of small parks.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by Philly Fan

Indeed!

Anything we can do to help?

Change.org petition? Lol. Couldn't hurt to write Alan Greenberger, Philly's Deputy Mayor for Economic Development and urge them to push and make it worthwhile for Chemours.

[iheartphilly]

Originally Posted by mih216

The first floor is 12' above the street because of flood plain regulations. The wall along Delaware Ave will have a couple of levels of landscaped terraces and steps. It should look pretty nice along the street. A section of Fitzwater Street extends E-W through the site and Swanson is extended N-S. The site plan calls for a landscaped walking path and a couple of small parks.

More details...thanks!

[iheartphilly]

Originally Posted by jsbrook

I think so too. Getting another large corporation and hundreds of jobs would be so huge for the City. I hope that the people who matter listen to me! And that Tronox doesn't screw things up. As the article notes, Tronox probably wants to acquire Chemours. It is headquartered in Stamford Connecticut, and if Chemours loses its identity as an independent company shortly after it gets one, it's not really going to have much say as to where it ultimately ends up. (At the same time, Tronox itself may be a hot takeover target)

Isn't one of the reason Chemours is leaving DE is because of the 1.25% wage tax. Playing devils's advocate, how is the move to Philly good for the employees with a higher city wage tax?

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

Isn't one of the reason Chemours is leaving DE is because of the 1.25% wage tax. Playing devils's advocate, how is the move to Philly good for the employees with a higher city wage tax?

Chemours has not [yet] confirmed that it is leaving Delaware. Maybe you mean, DuPont, which is moving from Wilmington to its suburban campus in Chestnut Run (still Delaware). Wage tax might be some piece of the puzzle there, but I don't think it's a big factor in DuPont's decision. If you've been in the DuPont building, which DuPont is exiting and Chemours is inheriting, it is a dump. In serious need of renovation. By that same token, inheriting it is not such a prize for Chemours. Also, DuPont's operations, outside of its executive and middle management workforce, are largely based in Chestnut Run. Many of DuPont's employees live in the suburbs and a not insignificant portion actually live in Philadelphia (thus hit by Philly's wage tax already). There are a lot of other reasons why a move makes operational sense for DuPont.

Philly's wage tax is a problem and a sure disincentive for Chemours. But it didn't stop Axalta when it was spun off from DuPont from relocating from Wilmington to Philly, where it is incurring a much higher wage tax for all its employees. The desire to tap into the talent in the University market and youth market as well as move into new offices in an up-and-coming city to cement its independence and new identity was enough of a draw. They've basically confirmed that in their press releases. And the City and State provided significant financial and other incentives for the relocation, which would [need to] happen in this case too. I also wouldn't discount proximity to existing location. Most of those currently employed really wouldn't need to move. A suburban office park is one thing. But aside from Camden (I hope they don't get them...), there can't be many other cities that would offer as little disruption to management and employees' lives as Philadelphia.

[iheartphilly]

Originally Posted by jsbrook

Chemours has not [yet] confirmed that it is leaving Delaware. Maybe you mean, DuPont, which is moving from Wilmington to its suburban campus in Chestnut Run (still Delaware). Wage tax might be some piece of the puzzle there, but I don't think it's a big factor in DuPont's decision. If you've been in the DuPont building, which DuPont is exiting and Chemours is inheriting, it is a dump. In serious need of renovation. By that same token, inheriting it is not such a prize for Chemours. Also, DuPont's operations, outside of its executive and middle management workforce, are largely based in Chestnut Run. Many of DuPont's employees live in the suburbs and a not insignificant portion actually live in Philadelphia (thus hit by Philly's wage tax already). There are a lot of other reasons why a move makes operational sense for DuPont.

Philly's wage tax is a problem and a sure disincentive for Chemours. But it didn't stop Axalta when it was spun off from DuPont from relocating from Wilmington to Philly, where it is incurring a much higher wage tax for all its employees. The desire to tap into the talent in the University market and youth market as well as move into new offices in an up-and-coming city to cement its independence and new identity was enough of a draw. They've basically confirmed that in their press releases. And the City and State provided significant financial and other incentives for the relocation, which would [need to] happen in this case too. I also wouldn't discount proximity to existing location. Most of those currently employed really wouldn't need to move. A suburban office park is one thing. But aside from Camden (I hope they don't get them...), there can't be many other cities that would offer as little disruption to management and employees' lives as Philadelphia.

Thanks for catching that...I meant Chemours is considering to move out of DE. I agree with your points, especially a financial incentive from the State and City. University City would be my first choice if they decide to make the move to Philly. Navy Yard might be Chemours' choice if pitch to them. Either way, it's a win for PA in the long run.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

Thanks for catching that...I meant Chemours is considering to move out of DE. I agree with your points, especially a financial incentive from the State and City. University City would be my first choice if they decide to make the move to Philly. Navy Yard might be Chemours' choice if pitch to them. Either way, it's a win for PA in the long run.

Got it. University City would be good. Close proximity to Amtrak and Septa (read easy walking distance to 30th Street Station) would probably work well for their workforce. I'd also be happy to see them in one of these lots that everyone thinks is going to house a third Comcast tower. Or 22nd and Market where that building collapsed or one of the vacant lots/parking lots near that. Navy Yard, meh. But ok. Really anywhere. Let's just get them here!

[josef]

I was in Chinatown this morning for the lion dance parade and I got a good shot of this mystery building being added on to on Arch between 9th and 10th.



Also got a picture of the Project HOME thing going up just off the corner at 9th & Race 810 Arch.

[Larry King]

that construction on arch between 9 and 10 is taking foreverrr

[br323206]

Originally Posted by josef

Also got a picture of the Project HOME thing going up just off the corner at 9th & Race.

Project HOME is 8th and Arch.

[josef]

Originally Posted by br323206

Project HOME is 8th and Arch.

Ah yeah, it is Arch. I know the address is 810 Arch, but it looks closer to 9th to me. I think people get it, but I'll update for posterity.

[br323206]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

Isn't one of the reason Chemours is leaving DE is because of the 1.25% wage tax. Playing devils's advocate, how is the move to Philly good for the employees with a higher city wage tax?

A couple of points:

1. There is a lot of hemming and hawing on here about the Philly wage tax (and I agree it should be reduced) but there is a lot of evidence from economists that local taxes do not really play a large role in decisions about where to locate. There are a lot of factors that are more important.

2. Delaware has a top marginal state income tax rate of 6.6%. So someone would pay a combined state and local rate of 7.85% on income over $60,000 in Wilmington. In Philly, that rate would be 7% (3.93% Phila tax for residents, and 3.07% state tax). Not sure exactly at what income Phila becomes more favorable, but for example:

A person making $200,000 per year would pay $14,506 in state and local taxes in Wilmington, but only $14,000 in Philadelphia. This is because PA's flat tax rate is favorable to high income earners.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by br323206

A couple of points:

1. There is a lot of hemming and hawing on here about the Philly wage tax (and I agree it should be reduced) but there is a lot of evidence from economists that local taxes do not really play a large role in decisions about where to locate. There are a lot of factors that are more important.

2. Delaware has a top marginal state income tax rate of 6.6%. So someone would pay a combined state and local rate of 7.85% on income over $60,000 in Wilmington. In Philly, that rate would be 7% (3.93% Phila tax for residents, and 3.07% state tax). Not sure exactly at what income Phila becomes more favorable, but for example:

A person making $200,000 per year would pay $14,506 in state and local taxes in Wilmington, but only $14,000 in Philadelphia. This is because PA's flat tax rate is favorable to high income earners.

This. For all of the handwringing about how high our taxes are...here's the big secret.

They're not.

And Delaware's are not nearly as low as everyone assumes. It has much higher (state) income tax rates than PA...sure, it typically has lower property and sales taxes, but not across the board.

There are many things you don't pay sales tax on in PA. Plus, if you really care that much, you can always drive to DE to get it. Again, as is the case for all people...how it affects you individually will vary...but it's not the panacea that everyone thinks it is.

Further complicating things, DE and PA do not have tax reciprocity (as do PA and NJ), so if you work in DE but live in PA (as many people do, especially the executives (in Southern Chester County)), you pay the higher of the two rates...for them, moving the company to PA (even if in Philly) is a wash, if not a small net gain (compared to DE).

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

This. For all of the handwringing about how high our taxes are...here's the big secret.

They're not.

And Delaware's are not nearly as low as everyone assumes. It has much higher (state) income tax rates than PA...sure, it typically has lower property and sales taxes, but not across the board.

There are many things you don't pay sales tax on in PA. Plus, if you really care that much, you can always drive to DE to get it. Again, as is the case for all people...how it affects you individually will vary...but it's not the panacea that everyone thinks it is.

Further complicating things, DE and PA do not have tax reciprocity (as do PA and NJ), so if you work in DE but live in PA (as many people do, especially the executives (in Southern Chester County)), you pay the higher of the two rates...for them, moving the company to PA (even if in Philly) is a wash, if not a small net gain (compared to DE).

Some people will just keep screaming "lower taxes" no matter what the facts are.

You do have to keep in mind though, it's not just all about the total tax burden. I mean, logically, that's all that should matter, but people are often illogical so perception is a big deal. Wage taxes are extremely unpopular, poll after poll shows this. And even though strides have been made to fix our real estate tax system, vacant and underused properties are still vastly undervalued disincentivizing redevelopment and construction and making it easy for owners to sit on vacant lots for decades.

So while I mostly agree that taxes in Philadelphia aren't nearly as high or nearly the problem that many make them out to be, they're still a total mess and would benefit from major changes even if in the end the tax burden to each person, landowner or corporation doesn't end up going down at all.

[Parkway]

The wage tax isn't the job killer, I don't think it ever really was it's just the one that individuals hate the most because it's the one that you pay.

The real job killer is the Gross Receipts Tax, where a business is taxed on their gross income not their profit. This means that you can lose money in a year and still owe a huge tax bill. This is particularly problematic for small and midsized businesses as they typically lose money in their first year or two and don't have as many ways to defray that burden.

[josef]

Originally Posted by Parkway

The wage tax isn't the job killer, I don't think it ever really was it's just the one that individuals hate the most because it's the one that you pay.

The real job killer is the Gross Receipts Tax, where a business is taxed on their gross income not their profit. This means that you can lose money in a year and still owe a huge tax bill. This is particularly problematic for small and midsized businesses as they typically lose money in their first year or two and don't have as many ways to defray that burden.

Right, I thought that was real problem. The taxes seem almost comically set up to punish businesses, especially the small, local businesses you really want in your city. This is recognized and acknowledged by the city, given this legislation from a few years ago that exempted the first few tens of thousands of dollars a business takes in so as not to punish smaller outfits. It's a positive start, but I don't know way it shouldn't be taken to the next level. It just doesn't seem to do anyone any favors.

[Philly-Drew]

Originally Posted by br323206

A couple of points:

1. There is a lot of hemming and hawing on here about the Philly wage tax (and I agree it should be reduced) but there is a lot of evidence from economists that local taxes do not really play a large role in decisions about where to locate. There are a lot of factors that are more important.

2. Delaware has a top marginal state income tax rate of 6.6%. So someone would pay a combined state and local rate of 7.85% on income over $60,000 in Wilmington. In Philly, that rate would be 7% (3.93% Phila tax for residents, and 3.07% state tax). Not sure exactly at what income Phila becomes more favorable, but for example:

A person making $200,000 per year would pay $14,506 in state and local taxes in Wilmington, but only $14,000 in Philadelphia. This is because PA's flat tax rate is favorable to high income earners.

This is some interesting information and provides an interesting view. How would this look for subrubs like King Of Prussia or Cherry Hill?

[cafeguy]

Originally Posted by Philly-Drew

This is some interesting information and provides an interesting view. How would this look for subrubs like King Of Prussia or Cherry Hill?

I met Pierre Robert once and asked why they moved WMMR out to Bala cynwyd. He said taxes. Both the wage and the business tax. My guess is that a company first considers the business tax... Then, uses the wage tax as a backup to the decision to not locate in the city.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by br323206

A couple of points:

1. There is a lot of hemming and hawing on here about the Philly wage tax (and I agree it should be reduced) but there is a lot of evidence from economists that local taxes do not really play a large role in decisions about where to locate. There are a lot of factors that are more important.

2. Delaware has a top marginal state income tax rate of 6.6%. So someone would pay a combined state and local rate of 7.85% on income over $60,000 in Wilmington. In Philly, that rate would be 7% (3.93% Phila tax for residents, and 3.07% state tax). Not sure exactly at what income Phila becomes more favorable, but for example:

A person making $200,000 per year would pay $14,506 in state and local taxes in Wilmington, but only $14,000 in Philadelphia. This is because PA's flat tax rate is favorable to high income earners.

Yeah, well, aren't you assuming everyone lives in Pennsylvania? They don't and that's one reason why the wage tax is a problem. (Notwithstanding the fact that we've done pretty well in regard in recent years, it also helps promote a shift of business out to the PA suburbs from Philly

Workers who live elsewhere (such as DE or NJ) get hit by their higher state income tax AND the wage tax. It's especially problematic for a state like Delaware that does not have reciprocity with PA. It's a disincentive for companies currently located in neighboring states and with much of their current workforce residing in such states from relocating here. If the wage tax (and the business tax) were not so high, Philly would be a tax friendly place given the favorable tax situation at the state level. Perhaps we have gone a bit afield, but Philly's tax structure certainly doesn't do us any favors with respect to attracting business. It's a city issue. Not a state one.

That said, I do agree that there are other more important factors that dictate where a company will locate its business.

[summersm343]

3rd and Market update
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