HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #81  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2023, 1:10 AM
eschaton eschaton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Yup. Aside from Lebanese as a nationality, they often refer to themselves as "Phoenicians" as their ethnicity.

They also tend to say they speak "Lebanese" as opposed to "Arabic".

It's a bit odd when you overhear them speaking their language and referring to God as "Allah". (Allah is the generic Arabic word for "God", and doesn't just apply to the Muslim God. When speaking their language, Lebanese Christians refer to their God as "Allah".)
Technically they are right, they are not Arab by ethnicity if they are Christian. There was not really any evidence of Muslim Arabs Chistianizing. Instead the Christian population of Lebanon shifted to speaking Arabic over time. There still are a handful of villages where people speak Aramaic instead.

Christian and Muslim populations in Lebanon are also genetically distinct. Christian's genetically cluster with Middle Eastern Jews and Cypriots, while Muslims are shifted towards Aeabs and have a low percentage of African DNA. The latter is not unexpected, given generally only Muslims owned slaves, and the children of slave women and Muslim men were free. Blacks in the Middle East thus always assimilated into the Muslim Arab majority, and not into religious or ethnic minorities.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #82  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2023, 1:15 AM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 7,364
Lebanese Canadians were 57% Christian and 32% Muslim according to the 2011 National Household Survey.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #83  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2023, 11:56 AM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is offline
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 67,773
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Technically they are right, they are not Arab by ethnicity if they are Christian. There was not really any evidence of Muslim Arabs Chistianizing. Instead the Christian population of Lebanon shifted to speaking Arabic over time. There still are a handful of villages where people speak Aramaic instead.

Christian and Muslim populations in Lebanon are also genetically distinct. Christian's genetically cluster with Middle Eastern Jews and Cypriots, while Muslims are shifted towards Aeabs and have a low percentage of African DNA. The latter is not unexpected, given generally only Muslims owned slaves, and the children of slave women and Muslim men were free. Blacks in the Middle East thus always assimilated into the Muslim Arab majority, and not into religious or ethnic minorities.
Quite a few Lebanese Christians have some Greek origins, though I wouldn't go as far as saying that overall they're "not Arab". There is a significant Arab admixture in the vast majority of them.

I know both Lebanese Christians and Muslims who look very "white", and lots of Christians are more brown and Arab-looking.
__________________
Amber alerts welcome at any time
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #84  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2023, 2:20 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Quite a few Lebanese Christians have some Greek origins, though I wouldn't go as far as saying that overall they're "not Arab". There is a significant Arab admixture in the vast majority of them.

I know both Lebanese Christians and Muslims who look very "white", and lots of Christians are more brown and Arab-looking.
It's not about being Greek, or "white" it's about not being Arab in the sense of not having an appreciable number of ancestors who came from Arabia.

Again, language shift happened independently of religious shift in the Middle East, with language shift generally happening first. Due to the way that Islam works as well (death penalty for apostasy, all children of Muslim men automatically being Muslim) there really wasn't much of a chance for any Muslims to assimilate into the Christian minority.

Prior to Islam, the Levant was Christian for centuries. Greek was held in high regard as the liturgical language, but the everyday language of speech was Aramaic, which became the lingua franca of the area back during the days of the Persian Empire (and it was the spoken language of Jesus). Aramaic was relatively closely related to Arabic, as both were Semitic languages, so the shift was relatively easy, which is why all the Christians in Lebanon and Syria (aside from a few villages) now speak Arabic, not Aramaic.

Aramaic is much more widely spoken these days by "Assyrians" - the Chaldeans and other related groups which were most heavily concentrated in Northern Iraq. Again, the Assyrians are not Arabs, but they are certainly middle easterners.

Or consider the Copts in Egypt. Copts kept their old language for religious purposes, but shifted to Arabic for everyday speech. Once again, the Copts are not Arab.

Anyway, not Arab does not equal "passing as white." It just means they're a non-Arabic group. Though by and large non-Arab minorities within the Middle East are a little lighter than their Muslim neighbors, due to to the dynamics I outlined above (decedents of black slaves assimilated into the Muslim Arab majority, not into religious minorities, and less frequently into minority ethnic groups like the Kurds, Berbers, etc.)
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #85  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2023, 6:15 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 7,364
Black Canadians

Total 1,547,870

Caribbean origins 548,060
West African origins 337,780
East African origins 263,840
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #86  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2023, 1:33 AM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 7,364
Toronto

Black population 488,155

Caribbean 216,610
West African 72,145
East African 68,575

Montreal

Black population 340,135

Caribbean 169,205
West African 84,255
East African 21,060

Ottawa

Black population 114,230

Caribbean 27,655
West African 32,680
East African 31,300

Edmonton

Black population 80,575

Caribbean 10,230
West African 17,260
East African 33,925

Calgary

Black population 75,650

Caribbean 9,750
West African 22,805
East African 24,245

Vancouver

Black population 41,180

Caribbean 8,555
West African 7,525
East African 11,890

Winnipeg

Black population 40,925

Caribbean 5,780
West African 14,205
East African 11,805
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #87  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2023, 1:40 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is offline
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 67,773
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
It's not about being Greek, or "white" it's about not being Arab in the sense of not having an appreciable number of ancestors who came from Arabia.

Again, language shift happened independently of religious shift in the Middle East, with language shift generally happening first. Due to the way that Islam works as well (death penalty for apostasy, all children of Muslim men automatically being Muslim) there really wasn't much of a chance for any Muslims to assimilate into the Christian minority.

Prior to Islam, the Levant was Christian for centuries. Greek was held in high regard as the liturgical language, but the everyday language of speech was Aramaic, which became the lingua franca of the area back during the days of the Persian Empire (and it was the spoken language of Jesus). Aramaic was relatively closely related to Arabic, as both were Semitic languages, so the shift was relatively easy, which is why all the Christians in Lebanon and Syria (aside from a few villages) now speak Arabic, not Aramaic.

Aramaic is much more widely spoken these days by "Assyrians" - the Chaldeans and other related groups which were most heavily concentrated in Northern Iraq. Again, the Assyrians are not Arabs, but they are certainly middle easterners.

Or consider the Copts in Egypt. Copts kept their old language for religious purposes, but shifted to Arabic for everyday speech. Once again, the Copts are not Arab.

Anyway, not Arab does not equal "passing as white." It just means they're a non-Arabic group. Though by and large non-Arab minorities within the Middle East are a little lighter than their Muslim neighbors, due to to the dynamics I outlined above (decedents of black slaves assimilated into the Muslim Arab majority, not into religious minorities, and less frequently into minority ethnic groups like the Kurds, Berbers, etc.)
I guess we need to stay away from the discussion or debate about how all of these people in the region (Jews, Arabs, etc.) are all "Semites" fundamentally!
__________________
Amber alerts welcome at any time
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #88  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2023, 1:46 PM
jtown,man jtown,man is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 4,144
Anyone else notice that we only talk about diversity in white countries? We never talk about the urgent need for diversity in Nigeria lol
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #89  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2023, 2:38 PM
Nite's Avatar
Nite Nite is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,986
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtown,man View Post
Anyone else notice that we only talk about diversity in white countries? We never talk about the urgent need for diversity in Nigeria lol
Nigeria is more diverse than any white country i know of.
For an American imagine if ever state had its own language and culture traditions that were completely different from any other state, then you will get an idea of how diverse Nigeria is.
Another way to think about it was if the Eruopean Union was forced to be one country by an outside force 100 years ago, then you get the idea of what Nigeria is like.

Last edited by Nite; Jan 13, 2023 at 2:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #90  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2023, 2:46 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,551
Right, Nigeria is super-diverse.

And Nigeria obviously doesn't have immigration bc it's poor and has a crazy-high birth rate. And no one here is saying immigration or diversity is inherently desirable; however it's needed in developed countries, unless you're open to demographic decline, given birth rates are now below replacement level basically everywhere. You can either have large-scale immigration or be resigned to a slow demographic death.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #91  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2023, 3:02 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is offline
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 67,773
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Right, Nigeria is super-diverse.

And Nigeria obviously doesn't have immigration bc it's poor and has a crazy-high birth rate. And no one here is saying immigration or diversity is inherently desirable; however it's needed in developed countries, unless you're open to demographic decline, given birth rates are now below replacement level basically everywhere. You can either have large-scale immigration or be resigned to a slow demographic death.
Immigration and diversity very often correlate though they aren't as totally inseparable as some people claim.

You can have an immigration program but with a somewhat subtle but still clear high integration and even assimilationist "covenant". Harder to do in the era of modern transportation and communications, but still - some places demand newcomers adopt the ways of their new home more than others. (Though yes the dominant trend in the west has been to scale back these expectations.)
__________________
Amber alerts welcome at any time
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #92  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2023, 5:41 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 7,364
Visible minority ID

Afghan 96.5%
Iranian 86.7%
Iraqi 84.4%
Syrian 70.7%
Egyptian 68%
Moroccan 65%
Algerian 57.3%
Lebanese 57%
Turkish 30.7%
Armenian 16.9%
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #93  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2023, 5:43 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 7,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Is West Asian presumably Persian, mostly?
60% of those identifying as "West Asian" are Iranian/Persian. About 20% are Afghan.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #94  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2023, 5:55 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 7,364
[deleted]
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #95  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2023, 6:48 PM
MolsonExport's Avatar
MolsonExport MolsonExport is offline
The Vomit Bag.
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Otisburgh
Posts: 44,716
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nite View Post
Nigeria is more diverse than any white country i know of.
For an American imagine if ever state had its own language and culture traditions that were completely different from any other state, then you will get an idea of how diverse Nigeria is.
Another way to think about it was if the Eruopean Union was forced to be one country by an outside force 100 years ago, then you get the idea of what Nigeria is like.
good rebuttal to an uninformed opionion
__________________
"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."-President Lyndon B. Johnson Donald Trump is a poor man's idea of a rich man, a weak man's idea of a strong man, and a stupid man's idea of a smart man. Am I an Asseau?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #96  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2023, 3:01 AM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 7,364
Religion (2021)

Christian 19,373,275 53.3%
Muslim 1,775,715 4.9%
Hindu 828,195 2.3%
Sikh 771,790 2.1%
Buddhist 356,975 1%
Jewish 335,295 0.9%
No religion 12,577,475 34.6%
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #97  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2023, 12:50 AM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 7,364
South Asian population by religion

Ontario

Hindu 35%
Muslim 25%
Sikh 20%
Christian 11%
No religion 5%

British Columbia

Sikh 61%
Hindu 16%
Muslim 9%
Christian 5%
No religion 8%
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #98  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2023, 1:12 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Visible minority ID

Afghan 96.5%
Iranian 86.7%
Iraqi 84.4%
Syrian 70.7%
Egyptian 68%
Moroccan 65%
Algerian 57.3%
Lebanese 57%
Turkish 30.7%
Armenian 16.9%
I'm really surprised that so many more Iranians self-identify as visible minorities than North Africans.

I mean, Iranians can vary quite a good deal in terms of appearance, but they're much closer to Turks and Lebanese IMHO. A large minority of them look European, meaning they aren't really what I would call a "visible minority" unless they're wearing a hijab or something.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #99  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2023, 1:48 PM
yaletown_fella yaletown_fella is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,326
Quote:
Originally Posted by Docere View Post
A lot of Lebanese Christians don't tick the Arab box and identify as white.

In the 2016 census, those of Lebanese origin are 48% were white, 47% Arab (the remainder mostly West Asian or Latin American).
That's kind of interesting/ironic because a sizeable minority of Levantine muslims have relatively recent white slavic muslim ancestry from the Balkans. Thats why you'll find that a small but noticeable minority of Levantine Arab muslims are fairer featured than most Europeans. This was due to Bosnian & Pomak refugees fleeing persecution from the growing Austro Hungarian empire, and shrinking Ottoman Empire.

This slavic mixture is not present in levantine Arab christians.
__________________
Supporter of Bill 23
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #100  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2023, 2:13 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,551
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
I'm really surprised that so many more Iranians self-identify as visible minorities than North Africans.

I mean, Iranians can vary quite a good deal in terms of appearance, but they're much closer to Turks and Lebanese IMHO. A large minority of them look European, meaning they aren't really what I would call a "visible minority" unless they're wearing a hijab or something.
I have nothing beyond anecdote, but, to me, most Persians generally look like something in the spectrum between South Asian and Arab. To me, they often look "visibly nonwhite" and quite frequently could be mistaken for South Asian.

Of course it's a massive, diverse country, with lots of distinct ethnics, but I'm talking the most common appearances. Actually, the cuisine, too, on a very basic level, is like a South Asian-Arab mashup.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 5:03 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.