PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread II

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by Justin7

Misunderstanding. I was responding to the suggestion that the team would build their new arena on Market and then watch the area surrounding that new arena decline.

In an effort to distill this down to the simplest question, why again is it a given that an arena at this location equals the imminent demise of Chinatown?

Wouldn't it ensure that restaurants and other establishments would thrive under the increased foot traffc and critical mass that the area will see?

What exactly are they expecting? Is it entirely about the threat of gentrification?

[McBane]

Originally Posted by mja

That said, it has to be done thoughtfully, understanding the very real possibility of unintended consequences on near neighbors. Given that this arena will represent an opportunity for the Sixers to essentially print money, they certainly can spend a little more to try to minimize any negative impacts on their neighbors.

But Chinatown is not interested in negotiating. The community is lined up in opposition. No one is saying, "Hey, let's talk about ways to mitigate our concerns." If the Sixers end up building this arena, which I really hope happens, Chinatown's fears will only be realized because of their own failure to extract concessions. Thank goodness I'm not in public relations, because if I was the Sixers, I'd tell Chinatown leaders either sit down and let's chat or we're just going to plow ahead and you'll get nothing.

Having said this, it bears repeating that Chinatown is not the sole arbiter of this arena happening or not. They're certainly the loudest but by no means are they the only interested stakeholder.

[EastSideHBG]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Chances are it will do more for the local economy where there are actually places to spend incremental income than it will in the middle of a parking lot in South Philadelphia.

Doesn't seem that difficult to comprehend.

Its the same principle that claims a Roosevelt Boulevard Subway would have more of an economic impact than the KOP extension. Not rocket science.

Originally Posted by Gatorade_Jim

If the area around the arena sucks, the area the arena is in sucks. That affects ticket sales, property values, and event bookings. The Sixers have an interest in you sticking around the area and spending money, hopefully in one of their stores. Subjectively it also seems like the Sixers leadership likes the city, so that helps.

Originally Posted by Justin7

Misunderstanding. I was responding to the suggestion that the team would build their new arena on Market and then watch the area surrounding that new arena decline.

So an arena that you can get into without having to deal with the outside much (if at all), the owners will care enough about the surrounding area to pump their own money into cleaning it up? I do not agree. They are doing what any business person does: I will build it and that will force the city to do something about it.

Originally Posted by philly_account12

The only way this makes sense is if you've never been to a sporting event outside of the north east lol. We have a tailgating culture sure, but it is absolutely not huge compared to other cities outside our region.

Also we're talking about the Sixers' arena. Not a lot of tailgating going on for 7 pm weekday starts in the middle of winter...

Originally Posted by McBane

First of all, prioritizing a bunch of people drinking in a parking lot over the economic health and wellbeing of our city is ridiculous.

Second, there is no tailgating culture prevalent at Sixers (or Flyers) games. That's not to say there are never any tailgaters at those games but it's waaay less than Phillies' games and nowhere near the level you see at a Birds game.

I was responding to why some people may want it to stay where it is, as when multiple events are taking place it is a fun environment and they can feed off of each other.

[McBane]

Originally Posted by Redddog

In an effort to distill this down to the simplest question, why again is it a given that an arena at this location equals the imminent demise of Chinatown?

Wouldn't it ensure that restaurants and other establishments would thrive under the increased foot traffc and critical mass that the area will see?

What exactly are they expecting? Is it entirely about the threat of gentrification?

Great question. Would be great for someone to give specifics about how exactly this arena will destroy Chinatown. My only concern - and I don't think I've heard this from the NIMBYs (of course not) - is that the arena could entrench existing surface lots that riddle the neighborhood. Besides the inherent negatives of surface parking lots, it could result in a lot of traffic on game nights. But again, are Chinatown leaders ready to sit down and talk about how to mitigate this specific issue or are they putting all their eggs in the "No Arena" basket?

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by Redddog

In an effort to distill this down to the simplest question, why again is it a given that an arena at this location equals the imminent demise of Chinatown?

Wouldn't it ensure that restaurants and other establishments would thrive under the increased foot traffc and critical mass that the area will see?

What exactly are they expecting? Is it entirely about the threat of gentrification?

They tend to refer to the Capitol One Arena as an example of how it apparently impacted DC’s Chinatown. Although, it doesn’t make a lot of sense. DC’s Chinatown is centrally located and was already experiencing gentrification with new apartments, office buildings, hotels etc. There’s also several museums and malls in the immediate vicinity. The arena didn’t magically transform the area - it was bound to happen anyway just as the Gallery will have to be redeveloped at some point.

At this point it just seems like people don’t like the arena because they don’t like it - classic NIMBYism. Ironically, capping the 676 will likely be more of catalyst for long term gentrification.

[AnEmperorPenguin]

PCDC and John Chin seem pretty transparent they are actually concerned about traffic and parking, I think the 76ers might end up agreeing to build a parking garage to get their blessing. The stuff about how Chinatown will be utterly destroyed if that site isn't a failing mall is so hyperbolic I just ignore it.

[Urbanthusiat]

Ceremony Held To Celebrate Groundbreaking Of New Port Richmond Residential Community: Somerset Station will be a 535-unit residential community with the first phase being 220 units in Port Richmond located at 2200 East Somerset Street in Philadelphia.

[SEFTA]

I think CHINATOWN "METRO" STATION should be a big PAGODA!

Someone give me an example where an arena transformed a district in a positive way.

Would an arena kill Chinatown? No
Would it help Chinatown enough to justify a generic transformation? No.

[ScreamShatter]

I think the traffic concerns for the arena are fair. Imagine a game going on at the same time as a large convention — whew, grindlock.

That said, if you can’t build an arena on 3 major transit lines, where else can it go? It would be a great addition to market street. The pros outweigh the cons, imo.

[reparcsyks]

Originally Posted by SEFTA

Someone give me an example where an arena transformed a district in a positive way.

Coors Field comes to mind.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by reparcsyks

Coors Field comes to mind.

The Jake (now Progressive Field) in Cleveland.

[iheartphilly]

Coors field:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7558.../data=!3m1!1e3

apples to oranges. do a virtual tour on the street level too.

[Mayormccheese]

Originally Posted by SEFTA

I think CHINATOWN "METRO" STATION should be a big PAGODA!

Someone give me an example where an arena transformed a district in a positive way.

Would an arena kill Chinatown? No
Would it help Chinatown enough to justify a generic transformation? No.

Atlanta braves

[Mayormccheese]

Originally Posted by SEFTA

I think CHINATOWN "METRO" STATION should be a big PAGODA!

Someone give me an example where an arena transformed a district in a positive way.

Would an arena kill Chinatown? No
Would it help Chinatown enough to justify a generic transformation? No.

San Diego Padres, Milwaukee Bucks, Boston Celtics

[Mayormccheese]

Originally Posted by SEFTA

I think CHINATOWN "METRO" STATION should be a big PAGODA!

Someone give me an example where an arena transformed a district in a positive way.

Would an arena kill Chinatown? No
Would it help Chinatown enough to justify a generic transformation? No.

Seattle Seahawks, SF Giants

[Frontst17]

Those are awful comparisons and pretty much exactly what people are worried about with the arena. We’re talking about building an MSG and that’s really the only example I can think of that matches this. The last thing we want is an arena surrounded by faux urban development or a “stadium district”.

[BroadandMarket]

Originally Posted by SEFTA

Someone give me an example where an arena transformed a district in a positive way.

Chase Center in San Francisco
TD Garden in Boston
Barclays Center in Brooklyn
Staples Center in LA
Fiserv Forum in Milwaukee
Bridgestone Arena in Nashville
Camden Yards in Baltimore
Nationals Park in DC
AT&T Park in San Francisco
PNC Park in Pittsburgh
Coors Field in Denver
Target Field in Minneapolis

But besides Barclays center, there has never been a more dense and transit assessable location that can fit an arena in perhaps the most underperforming area in all of center city.

For the people against the arena, who do you think is going to come in and save Market East? DSW, Marshalls, Century 21, Starbucks, Target, Mitchell and Ness, Rite Aid, Burger King and many other places have closed in the immediate vicinity in the last few years. 13th, 11th and 8th El stops are all sketchy at night with homeless and drug use. We've got massive empty lots at 13th and Market and 9th and Market. Are you fine with those sitting empty? I don't know about you but I'm tired of waiting for this area to take off. Tourists walk from the Marriott and Loews to old city right through a crappy run down stretch while getting panhandled and don't get the best impression of Philly. The East Market project was great with Iron Hill, TJ Maxx and Canopy Hotel but the area is still getting worse, not better. It would also force the city/Septa to make improvements to the regional rail schedules and the El which is obviously needed. The 76ers arena is 1.3 billion, they are not going to let the area fail after investing that much. They will keep it clean and safe, I don't see the downside.

[McBane]

What do you mean a "faux urban development"? This is 10th and Market. It's already urban. Do you mean generic with a bunch of chain stores? Look, every city has that sort of place and it's not inherently bad.

Putting the arena aside for a moment, if I had to propose one area of our city to be transformed into a generic neighborhood with a bunch of chain stores, Market East would be it. It's practically that anyway, just massively unsuccessful. Boston's Downtown Crossing is an excellent example.

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by BroadandMarket

Chase Center in San Francisco
TD Garden in Boston
Barclays Center in Brooklyn
Staples Center in LA
Fiserv Forum in Milwaukee
Bridgestone Arena in Nashville
Camden Yards in Baltimore
Nationals Park in DC
AT&T Park in San Francisco
PNC Park in Pittsburgh
Coors Field in Denver
Target Field in Minneapolis

But besides Barclays center, there has never been a more dense and transit assessable location that can fit an arena in perhaps the most underperforming area in all of center city.

For the people against the arena, who do you think is going to come in and save Market East? DSW, Marshalls, Century 21, Starbucks, Target, Mitchell and Ness, Rite Aid, Burger King and many other places have closed in the immediate vicinity in the last few years. 13th, 11th and 8th El stops are all sketchy at night with homeless and drug use. We've got massive empty lots at 13th and Market and 9th and Market. Are you fine with those sitting empty? I don't know about you but I'm tired of waiting for this area to take off. Tourists walk from the Marriott and Loews to old city right through a crappy run down stretch while getting panhandled and don't get the best impression of Philly. The East Market project was great with Iron Hill, TJ Maxx and Canopy Hotel but the area is still getting worse, not better. It would also force the city/Septa to make improvements to the regional rail schedules and the El which is obviously needed. The 76ers arena is 1.3 billion, they are not going to let the area fail after investing that much. They will keep it clean and safe, I don't see the downside.

Couldn’t agree more.

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by McBane

What do you mean a "faux urban development"? This is 10th and Market. It's already urban. Do you mean generic with a bunch of chain stores? Look, every city has that sort of place and it's not inherently bad.

Putting the arena aside for a moment, if I had to propose one area of our city to be transformed into a generic neighborhood with a bunch of chain stores, Market East would be it. It's practically that anyway, just massively unsuccessful. Boston's Downtown Crossing is an excellent example.

I would also like to know what “faux urban development” means.