PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread II

[EastSideHBG]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Where in Plymouth Meeting is there brand new widespread McMansion development?

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

There isn't.

But my guess is that EastSide is referring to this new community (unless there is another I'm not aware of)...
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pl...3OGI?entry=ttu

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1136...8192?entry=ttu

However, these homes aren't mcmansions. The community consists of ~80 homes, nicely sized, but not overdone, nice aesthetic, and Plymouth Meeting hasn't seen much modern SFH construction in recent years (besides teardowns and a home here and there). Also, this community soldout in months, another sign of the demand / shortage of new housing in the burbs. One could argue the loss of "open space", but the land was privately owned and was just empty land, not really "destructive" to the area.
People gotta live somewhere...

And here (dirt lot in the pic, some homes are up now):
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1182...8192?entry=ttu

And these are McMansions to me, especially in comparison to the housing stock in the area. But if you don't want to agree with my definition and want even bigger houses those are popping up in neighboring Whitpain Twp.

[Philly Fan]

Originally Posted by reparcsyks

It's amazing how Barcelona feels like a city 20x the size of Philly simply because all of it is walkable, constantly bustling and overflowing with tourists. It's amazing what street life does for a city.

I dunno--don't you find Barcelona a bit Gaudi?

[justremember]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

Not to mention those are black, and brown neighborhoods of Philly, families who have been here for decades, they will leave to go to Areas Like Bear, Delaware, NJ, Pa, and Maryland.

Of course if you go to Fishtown or Fairmount you will see families and 1000 kids those are invested neighborhoods with all the bells and whistles.

We tend to overlook the other neighborhoods of the working class people that allow this city to run.

One thing I’ve observed over the past few years is that the urbanist argument has really failed to appeal to ever-day Black people, because it’s been pushed largely by white people who don’t know how to communicate its benefits in relatable ways. We don’t do a good job of talking about how car dependency and suburbanization disproportionately harm Black people. Doing things that are good for the fabric of the city often sounds like doing things to make life more comfortable in neighborhoods where white people live.


We’ve done a horrible job of presenting walking/biking/transit as a step forward, not a step back. We’ve presented vibrant urban communities as places that are culturally foreign but don’t offer the benefit (space, better schools, less crime) of the suburbs. We have to do a better job of linking the concerns of black families — safety and education — with choosing city life over the suburbs (which are themselves a cruel illusion) or the city will hollow out and just be economically depressed Black and brown neighborhoods surrounding walled off playgrounds for the wealthy.

[SEFTA]

I think poorer neighborhoods see any physical improvements as an approach of gentrification. Not too far from the mark.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

I don't totally agree. The middle class black families leaving West Oak Lane for Atlanta aren't moving to Midtown Atlanta or Grant Park or Vinings (in the city of Atlanta). They're moving to Smyrna, Cumming, Conyers, and Mableton (in the sprawling suburbs). Maybe part of the issue is that Philly generally no longer sprawls way out to the far reaches of the region so that option doesn't exist here like it once did. You simply don't see McMansion development in our region like you did 20 or 30 years ago. The one exception might be the far flung areas of Gloucester, Salem, and Burlington Counties. And of course in far southern New Castle County (places like Bear and Middletown DE).

Let me try to be more clear- I am not just talking about people who are selling, I am saying that people from other areas wont move here, people who graduate college wont come back here and few blacks interested in middle class urban living would think of Philly as an option and there is no concerted effort to change that dynamic. As a major city with a huge black population and tons of colleges and academic/research/tech jobs we should be grabbing a much larger share of the educated black resident market. Black people are generally not going to settle in boom cities with virtually zero black presence, so that largely eliminates a lot western and southwestern areas from consideration. Many blacks who have no interest in living in Philly will happily go to DC which is just as urban as Philly. There is a huge black suburban population in the DMV but many live in the city as well and DC is considered to be a desirable urban environment.

Also, I'm not the biggest fan of the "new" suburbs, but you cant be surprised tens of thousands of families each decade leave black philadelphia for safer, quieter suburban areas with larger, more modern housing and more greenspace. Philadelphia has done virtually nothing to incentivize black middle class families to stay put- in fact many only do so based on presence of family in the area.

[PhilliesPhan]

Originally Posted by justremember

One thing I’ve observed over the past few years is that the urbanist argument has really failed to appeal to ever-day Black people, because it’s been pushed largely by white people who don’t know how to communicate its benefits in relatable ways. We don’t do a good job of talking about how car dependency and suburbanization disproportionately harm Black people. Doing things that are good for the fabric of the city often sounds like doing things to make life more comfortable in neighborhoods where white people live.


We’ve done a horrible job of presenting walking/biking/transit as a step forward, not a step back. We’ve presented vibrant urban communities as places that are culturally foreign but don’t offer the benefit (space, better schools, less crime) of the suburbs. We have to do a better job of linking the concerns of black families — safety and education — with choosing city life over the suburbs (which are themselves a cruel illusion) or the city will hollow out and just be economically depressed Black and brown neighborhoods surrounding walled off playgrounds for the wealthy.

Many of my friends would agree with this take, as I partially do. As a young black urbanist who is college-educated and upper-middle class, I have complicated feelings on this topic. On one hand, I am inclined to share the same vision for urbanism as my white colleagues. I spend time in all city neighborhoods, but I tend to spend most of my time in the established (ex. Chestnut Hill) and gentrified (ex. Fishtown) neighborhoods because of their unmatched offerings that meet my vision of an urbanist paradise. I bought a house in Northwest Philly not only because of the quality of life offered (higher than any suburb IMO), but also because I want my future children to enjoy my neighborhood's restaurants, shops, good schools, walkability and transit accessibility, and relative safety. On the other hand, I recently ran through my old West Philly neighborhood. While I enjoyed my childhood, running along 52nd Street from Parkside Avenue to Market Street reminded me of just how rough my surroundings were back then. I remember the street fights, hearing gunshots, and the overall feeling that the Philadelphia I grew up in (early-mid 2000s) was a place to get away from rather than plant roots in the future. It also inspired an idyllic vision of the suburbs in my head, which I grew up thinking were always nice and exclusively for the rich. Moving outside of the city as a teenager, attending college in the Lehigh Valley for a short while, and traveling abroad helped me to come around and appreciate an urban lifestyle once again.

I think we need a more diverse group of urbanist planners and advocates. A less car-oriented lifestyle is better for everyone, but that concept may be difficult to grasp if the presenter isn't presenting the vision in a way that the audience can appreciate. Personally, I've considered starting a YouTube channel/podcast to discuss urbanist and transit issues for this very reason. IMO, I've always thought that too many non-white people have had negative experiences with urban environments due to mid-20th Century disinvestment. It's easy to see how someone might gain an idyllic vision of suburban life if their neighborhood is full of empty lots, collapsing homes, safety concerns, and transit that is rarely on-time and not clean.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by EastSideHBG

And here (dirt lot in the pic, some homes are up now):
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1182...8192?entry=ttu

And these are McMansions to me, especially in comparison to the housing stock in the area. But if you don't want to agree with my definition and want even bigger houses those are popping up in neighboring Whitpain Twp.

The link is not working but I assume this is a very small niche development.

My point is that we don't have, in this region generally, the kind of green field development we had a few decades ago where 100s of homes are built one after the other for as far as the eye can see...the way you see in the Texas Metroplexes or in the Atlanta area.

That's the real draw to these regions. People who want a suburban lifestyle in a new build McMansion generally can't get it here anymore at an affordable price point. You can still get it in the Atlanta region for below $400K depending on how far you're willing to go.

That doesn't exist here really at all. At least not in Philadelphia, Delaware, Chester, Bucks, or Montgomery Counties.

To suggest otherwise is disingenuous.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by UrbanRevival

I definitely understand where you're coming from. But to your point, I think it's also important to acknowledge that there appears to be a fundamental preference shift going on, too, amongst a lot of historically urban and working-class AAs specifically, in that many are simply done with city living generally and look at Sun Belt suburbs as their Shangri-La.

It's not like Philly is losing these kinds of families to other "more functional" urban cities. It's the kind of folks who have long glorified suburban living and have a chance to finally make it a reality for themselves.

In other words, no matter how much better Philly could reasonably improve conditions in working-class neighborhoods with the best possible resources and optimistic timing, I don't think these these families would be persuaded to stay: they have long been dead-set on escaping urban life and there's essentially nothing that could prevent that out-migration.

But as you say, cities are always in flux. Some will always want in and some will always want out no matter what is going on. And it will be very interesting to see how the demographic shift continues.

Well I'll put it like this, As a black young man in the City I am a couple more times likely of being killed or injured in a city compared to if I move to a suburb or "safer" city.

That's a Very sad reality, we just lost a young black man on Sunday from a shooting, they say it was an argument over a parking spot the young man was called "phatgeez" he was well known and most likely had no real problems with anyone, and this occurred on Girard and N Taney.

Situations like that are the reasons why black people let alone black families would up and move to a suburb, there's no safe haven for a black person unless you live in a heavily gentrified area or condo downtown.

Also here's another example My Fiancee is from Delaware, She moved up here to Philly 3 Years ago, some of her complaints to me is that Philly is unsafe based on the news she sees and hears, she wants a big nice house in the suburbs and I want a big nice 3 floor Rowhome with all the bells and whistles, but its hard to argue my point when you see shootings, robberies and rampant QOL issues everywhere.

I'd love to raise my children and family in the city where my bloodline is, but how can I do that when our chances of success are better off in a quiet suburb 30-50 min outside of the city?

Currently cities haven't been a good place for Black Americans since after the race riots.

We need investment if we want to see Black Families stay, build and grow in their neighborhoods.

[PhilliesPhan]

We may soon see action at the huge vacant lot at 3rd and Girard. I noticed test boring going on as I walked past the site about an hour ago. The crazy thing is, once the 3rd and Girard project gets going, the last remaining vacant lot along the Northern Liberties side of Girard Avenue will be gone.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

I don't disagree with you but to be fair there is a lot of development in this list of neighborhoods.

Kensington (even the bad parts), Poplar, Kingsessing and Germantown in particular are experiencing a bunch of new development.

I mean Germantown is blazing almost uniformly, particularly West Germantown in almost every pocket and East Germantown west of Chelten. The Inquirer recently wrote an article about how Lingelbach in Germantown had changed its curriculum and is quickly improving its test scores. It has become something of a school of choice within Germantown. I mentioned this a while back after noticing subtle differences in its data and was just waiting for it to become more of a story.

Kensington goes without saying. The Eastern portion of Poplar at this point is indistinguishable from Northern Liberties. The southern portion is experiencing overflow from Callowhill. Kingsessing is stabalized closer to Center City.

At the end of the day, to the extent that blacks are leaving the city I'd say a lot of it is that when things start to improve in their neighborhoods (for whatever reason), they're so jaded or inclined to not see the positives that the minute there is some real value tied up in their homes they bolt. Sometimes it really does take an outsider or a new set of eyes to see the good in a place.

Even this is an example of what I'm talking about. I would never in a million years put Kensington or Germantown on a list of declining neighborhoods. It's quite the opposite, in fact.

Lets be real, when we speak about Kensington or Germantown we are talking about the actual areas where no development is happening, where black families live, and the cop cars sit at all times throughout the day, those areas are stuck in a time capsule of instability.

So if you were born and raised in it, I am not surprised if a black family leaves and moves to a suburb

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

Lets be real, when we speak about Kensington or Germantown we are talking about the actual areas where no development is happening, where black families live, and the cop cars sit at all times throughout the day, those areas are stuck in a time capsule of instability.

So if you were born and raised in it, I am not surprised if a black family leaves and moves to a suburb

There are lots of dirt poor Hispanic and White families in Kensington as well and your point would apply to them equally; they are not likely to sing the praises of urban living either.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by justremember

One thing I’ve observed over the past few years is that the urbanist argument has really failed to appeal to ever-day Black people, because it’s been pushed largely by white people who don’t know how to communicate its benefits in relatable ways. We don’t do a good job of talking about how car dependency and suburbanization disproportionately harm Black people. Doing things that are good for the fabric of the city often sounds like doing things to make life more comfortable in neighborhoods where white people live.

I think it's about Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. It sounds like a nice to have and a distraction if your neighborhood still isn't safe and your local school is failing. And I'd argue they're right.

I think white urbanists and urban planners do frankly come across as very patronizing in these discussions. They're not sensitive to the variety of lived experiences of most people, frankly, who don't fit their mold. So a discussion of something as simple as well I need to own a car because I work in King of Prussia or Paoli becomes a lecture about how well you can take this mode of transportation here or there to this place and transfer to this other mode of transportation and oila 3 hours later you're at work!

On the other hand, I also think it's okay if the investment focus is different in different neighborhoods. If more stable and affluent neighborhoods want to focus on bike infrastructure because safety isn't an issue and the local school isn't failing, but residents of black neighborhoods want to focus on safety, then THAT'S OKAY. It's a big messy city. We don't need to be moving in lock step on the same issues.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

Lets be real, when we speak about Kensington or Germantown we are talking about the actual areas where no development is happening, where black families live, and the cop cars sit at all times throughout the day, those areas are stuck in a time capsule of instability.

So if you were born and raised in it, I am not surprised if a black family leaves and moves to a suburb

Yeah, I know what you're talking about, but vast swathes of Kensington and West Germantown in particular are not like that anymore. And you are right as well, I don't "blame" anyone for leaving but I don't want to hear about it ten years later when you return...the house you sold for $150K is now worth $500K and you're (not you, actually, but the hypothetical person we're talking about) complains about being pushed out.

No. Correction: You couldn't wait to leave.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by PHL10

There are lots of dirt poor Hispanic and White families in Kensington as well and your point would apply to them equally; they are not likely to sing the praises of urban living either.

You’re correct. Im including them as well. Especially in the Kensington area.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Yeah, I know what you're talking about, but vast swathes of Kensington and West Germantown in particular are not like that anymore. And you are right as well, I don't "blame" anyone for leaving but I don't want to hear about it ten years later when you return...the house you sold for $150K is now worth $500K and you're (not you, actually, but the hypothetical person we're talking about) complains about being pushed out.

No. Correction: You couldn't wait to leave.

I agree with you on that, if alot of families stayed instead of leaving as soon as value’s increase there would be stronger black neighborhoods.

[Gatorade_Jim]

Not totally related but I’ve been in DC today for work and have taken the metro all over and boy am I sick and tired of how uncomfortable and frankly sketchy both the El and the BSL feel in comparison. It’s an embarrassment.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by Gatorade_Jim

Not totally related but I’ve been in DC today for work and have taken the metro all over and boy am I sick and tired of how uncomfortable and frankly sketchy both the El and the BSL feel in comparison. It’s an embarrassment.

Yeah. It's not close.

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by Gatorade_Jim

Not totally related but I’ve been in DC today for work and have taken the metro all over and boy am I sick and tired of how uncomfortable and frankly sketchy both the El and the BSL feel in comparison. It’s an embarrassment.

While I agree in a sense, the DC Metro is a bit of a unique animal. It’s newer but it’s also a hybrid of regional/commuter rail and rapid transit. I don’t feel like the El or subway feel more sketchy than NYC sub/el. For example, if you ride regional rail or PATCO, it’s on par with the rider experience you get on the Metro. Where I get jealous of DC, is the seamless connection to every area of the city – I think you can make the argument that it’s the most effective/efficient rapid transit system in the nation.

[Justin7]

Originally Posted by PHL10

While I agree in a sense, the DC Metro is a bit of a unique animal. It’s newer but it’s also a hybrid of regional/commuter rail and rapid transit. I don’t feel like the El or subway feel more sketchy than NYC sub/el. For example, if you ride regional rail or PATCO, it’s on par with the rider experience you get on the Metro. Where I get jealous of DC, is the seamless connection to every area of the city – I think you can make the argument that it’s the most effective/efficient rapid transit system in the nation.

Sorry, I love Philly, but it does not compete with BOS/NYC/DC when it comes to mass transit.

There are many reasons for this. Money, Septa's suburban leadership, councilmanic prerogative, etc.

In Philadelphia mass transit is mostly seen as something used by people who can't afford a car, which is not the case in other NEC cities.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Yeah, I know what you're talking about, but vast swathes of Kensington and West Germantown in particular are not like that anymore. And you are right as well, I don't "blame" anyone for leaving but I don't want to hear about it ten years later when you return...the house you sold for $150K is now worth $500K and you're (not you, actually, but the hypothetical person we're talking about) complains about being pushed out.

No. Correction: You couldn't wait to leave.

The people that sell and leave are not going to complain about prices or gentrification in 10 years because they aren't coming back and don't likely care all that much. The people who complain are those who either choose to stay and like the status quo in terms of COL or those who could not afford to leave and find rents increasingly unaffordable as a neighborhood improves. Many people leave and are fine with it and never look back- they most definitely aren't concerned about what the new residents do with the area once they take it over.