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  #5061  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2022, 4:25 PM
City Wide City Wide is offline
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Quick nitpick for Philly.History: this photo has to be a bit older than 1950. Most of the trolley lines in the city were converted to bus operations around the mid-1950s, specifically 1956. I wouldn't expect to see so many cars parked on the Market Street tracks in 1950, unless there was an ongoing strike or some other cancellation of service. If I were to take a guess, I would say that this was taken between 1957 and 1960

Besides the date issue, does anybody know where these trolley tracks ran? The shot of Market St. at Delaware Ave doesn't seem to show any. I'm almost positive that by 1950 the west Philly trolleys were underground so these tracks weren't for those routes.
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  #5062  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2022, 4:35 PM
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Originally Posted by City Wide View Post
Quick nitpick for Philly.History: this photo has to be a bit older than 1950. Most of the trolley lines in the city were converted to bus operations around the mid-1950s, specifically 1956. I wouldn't expect to see so many cars parked on the Market Street tracks in 1950, unless there was an ongoing strike or some other cancellation of service. If I were to take a guess, I would say that this was taken between 1957 and 1960

Besides the date issue, does anybody know where these trolley tracks ran? The shot of Market St. at Delaware Ave doesn't seem to show any. I'm almost positive that by 1950 the west Philly trolleys were underground so these tracks weren't for those routes.
Several routes remained on the surface even after the tunnel was constructed (including, I believe, the 36).
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  #5063  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2022, 4:48 PM
Philly Fan Philly Fan is online now
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Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan View Post
Quick nitpick for Philly.History: this photo has to be a bit [newer] than 1950. Most of the trolley lines in the city were converted to bus operations around the mid-1950s, specifically 1956. I wouldn't expect to see so many cars parked on the Market Street tracks in 1950, unless there was an ongoing strike or some other cancellation of service. If I were to take a guess, I would say that this was taken between 1957 and 1960.
As long as we're engaging in some photographic archaeology, there's another indication in that photo that it was probably taken around 1952-53. As best as I can tell, the films named on that movie theater marquee are "Thunderbirds" with John Derek, and "The Raiders," both of which were released in 1952 (according to IMDB). Also, to the extent that the car body styles are visible, they look to me to be more typical of model years in the late 1940s and early 1950s than the late '50s. Of course, I guess it's possible that folks in Philly were a few years behind the rest of the country in terms of the movies they saw and the cars they drove.

Last edited by Philly Fan; Sep 26, 2022 at 7:27 PM.
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  #5064  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2022, 11:48 AM
cardeza cardeza is offline
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Originally Posted by City Wide View Post
Quick nitpick for Philly.History: this photo has to be a bit older than 1950. Most of the trolley lines in the city were converted to bus operations around the mid-1950s, specifically 1956. I wouldn't expect to see so many cars parked on the Market Street tracks in 1950, unless there was an ongoing strike or some other cancellation of service. If I were to take a guess, I would say that this was taken between 1957 and 1960

Besides the date issue, does anybody know where these trolley tracks ran? The shot of Market St. at Delaware Ave doesn't seem to show any. I'm almost positive that by 1950 the west Philly trolleys were underground so these tracks weren't for those routes.
The El didnt exit near 40th street until 1955 if Im not mistaken. So Im pretty sure the trolleys did not have their present configuration of tunnels in West Philly until roughly the same time.
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  #5065  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2022, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Philly Fan View Post
As long as we're engaging in some photographic archaeology, there's another indication in that photo that it was probably taken around 1952-53. As best as I can tell, the films named on that movie theater marquee are "Thunderbirds" with John Derek, and "The Raiders," both of which were released in 1952 (according to IMDB). Also, to the extent that the car body styles are visible, they look to me to be more typical of model years in the late 1940s and early 1950s than the late '50s. Of course, I guess it's possible that folks in Philly were a few years behind the rest of the country in terms of the movies they saw and the cars they drove.
It was taken in January 1953 during a trolley strike, thus parking allowed on the tracks. Here’s another photo: https://digital.library.temple.edu/d...coll3/id/61145

In fact Temple’s digital archives has a whole slew of photos from the 1953 strike: https://digital.library.temple.edu/d...onn/and/page/1

The movies you cited were released in 1952, however at least “Raiders” first played the Stanton, which is west of City Hall. So it’d be playing second run theaters around early ‘53.
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  #5066  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2022, 2:02 PM
PHLtoNYC PHLtoNYC is offline
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I'm hoping the South side of Market Street is developed before 2031 though.

'We want to be a great neighbor': 76ers look to open dialogue with new ad campaign for proposed $1.3B arena

https://www.bizjournals.com/philadel...-campaign.html
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  #5067  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2022, 2:27 PM
McBane McBane is offline
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What kind of development can we realistically expect to see as a result of the arena (This is not a snarky/rhetorical question)? Not even necessarily on the south side of Market but all the underdeveloped lots and shabby buildings in the immediate surrounding area.

To me, the most realistic thing is a parking garage but I sincerely hope there is a concerted effort to restrict parking like was done when the Convention Center expanded.

A hotel also seems feasible except due to the CC, the area is already saturated with hotels. I don't have insight if more are needed at this specific location or not.

Maybe Oliver Tyrone Pulver can leverage the arena to secure tenants for 1300 Market But yea...Market East is probably the weakest commercial office submarket in Center City/Univ City.

Maybe residential? Could be a good spot for 1-2 bedroom non-luxury rentals?

Just spitballing here.
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  #5068  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2022, 2:31 PM
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Originally Posted by McBane View Post
What kind of development can we realistically expect to see as a result of the arena (This is not a snarky/rhetorical question)? Not even necessarily on the south side of Market but all the underdeveloped lots and shabby buildings in the immediate surrounding area.

To me, the most realistic thing is a parking garage but I sincerely hope there is a concerted effort to restrict parking like was done when the Convention Center expanded.

A hotel also seems feasible except due to the CC, the area is already saturated with hotels. I don't have insight if more are needed at this specific location or not.

Maybe Oliver Tyrone Pulver can leverage the arena to secure tenants for 1300 Market But yea...Market East is probably the weakest commercial office submarket in Center City/Univ City.

Maybe residential? Could be a good spot for 1-2 bedroom non-luxury rentals?

Just spitballing here.
A hotel makes the most sense to me.

I'm holding out hope for a luxury hotel at the Disney Hole with a venue and highend shopping. This could be a signature property for some high-end hotel operation.

Then add 500 cops in Market East/wash sq and call it a day. Market street east of City Hall would finally be the destination it always should have been.
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  #5069  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2022, 3:25 PM
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A high-end hotel should be on Broad St near the theaters/beginning of Walnut St or off Rittenhouse Sq or somewhere opposite of 30th street station.
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  #5070  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2022, 3:27 PM
PHLtoNYC PHLtoNYC is offline
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Originally Posted by McBane View Post
What kind of development can we realistically expect to see as a result of the arena (This is not a snarky/rhetorical question)? Not even necessarily on the south side of Market but all the underdeveloped lots and shabby buildings in the immediate surrounding area.

To me, the most realistic thing is a parking garage but I sincerely hope there is a concerted effort to restrict parking like was done when the Convention Center expanded.

A hotel also seems feasible except due to the CC, the area is already saturated with hotels. I don't have insight if more are needed at this specific location or not.

Maybe Oliver Tyrone Pulver can leverage the arena to secure tenants for 1300 Market But yea...Market East is probably the weakest commercial office submarket in Center City/Univ City.

Maybe residential? Could be a good spot for 1-2 bedroom non-luxury rentals?

Just spitballing here.
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Originally Posted by Redddog View Post
A hotel makes the most sense to me.

I'm holding out hope for a luxury hotel at the Disney Hole with a venue and highend shopping. This could be a signature property for some high-end hotel operation.

Then add 500 cops in Market East/wash sq and call it a day. Market street east of City Hall would finally be the destination it always should have been.
South side Market 1000 block, replicate the East Market development... 1 or 2 apartment towers over large format retail and dining (Best Buy, Crate & Barrel, Home Goods, etc.).

South side of Market 900 block (Western half), a mid-market trendy hotel... Maybe Citizen M, Moxy, Virgin, etc. with a cool rooftop concept.

South side of Market 800 block, a large high-end hotel... Maybe JW Marriott, Luxury Collection, etc. with a set of restaurants, rooftop concept, small retail mixed in.

Throw in a small amount of office space (tech, life sciences) and boom, that is my plan.

BUT, I don't want to wait 9 years for substantial development. So much of Center City feels nice and energized, but most (not all) of Market Street from 8th to City Hall is shabby and dreary (on a good day). I wonder what out-of-towners think of that stretch when they stay at the Loews Hotel?


This streetview outside of TD Garden is good inspiration for at least one of the blocks (not many people out though because it was Nov 2020).
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3652...7i16384!8i8192
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  #5071  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2022, 3:29 PM
PHLtoNYC PHLtoNYC is offline
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Originally Posted by iheartphilly View Post
A high-end hotel should be on Broad St near the theaters/beginning of Walnut St or off Rittenhouse Sq or somewhere opposite of 30th street station.
I think Center City could support 2 more.

A JW or similar in/near Market East and a St. Regis, Edition Brand or similar on West of Broad near where you mentioned.
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  #5072  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2022, 3:41 PM
ScreamShatter ScreamShatter is offline
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I still can’t believe Disney hole is undeveloped. Hope someone does it right, whenever it happens. Something visually like Cira South with retail, hotel, and sky park would be epic.
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  #5073  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2022, 3:44 PM
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The October CDR has been released, and we're set to receive a 34 story, 476' tower at 3615 Chestnut Street! Time for a new thread!
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  #5074  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2022, 3:49 PM
phishtown phishtown is offline
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Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan View Post
The October CDR has been released, and we're set to receive a 34 story, 476' tower at 3615 Chestnut Street! Time for a new thread!
Out of nowhere! Mind blown
https://www.phila.gov/media/20220927...1-2022-CDR.pdf
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  #5075  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2022, 3:50 PM
Philly Fan Philly Fan is online now
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Originally Posted by Jayfar View Post
The movies you cited were released in 1952, however at least “Raiders” first played the Stanton, which is west of City Hall.
Now how the hell did you get THAT information? Unless, of course, it WAS you who I ran into buying popcorn and Milk Duds in the lobby of the Stanton back in '52.
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  #5076  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2022, 3:51 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan View Post
The October CDR has been released, and we're set to receive a 34 story, 476' tower at 3615 Chestnut Street! Time for a new thread!
Love all of the new residential over there. That part of UCity used to feel dead. Def think it's important that that whole area doesn't become entirely commercial.
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  #5077  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2022, 3:56 PM
BroadandMarket BroadandMarket is offline
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Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC View Post
I'm hoping the South side of Market Street is developed before 2031 though.

'We want to be a great neighbor': 76ers look to open dialogue with new ad campaign for proposed $1.3B arena

https://www.bizjournals.com/philadel...-campaign.html
Anyone who is against the 76ers arena it at this point should just say they don't care about Market East being a sketchy dump. The Rite Aid is now closed at 10th and Market. The Burger King at 8th and Market closed. The Fashion District had a shooting at 6:30 PM on a Wednesday:
https://6abc.com/fashion-district-ma...fire/12227778/

The city should be happy that the 76ers are ready to invest in the area. The Chinatown community was also against the commuter rail tunnel and the convention center expansion, two successful and transformative projects. Chinatown ironically is also pushing for 676 to be capped. If you think the 76ers arena is going to gentrify Chinatown but the 676 capping will not, then you are severely mistaken. If anything the 676 cap will cause much more severe gentrification by all of those desolate parking lots around Vine from 8th to 13th.
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  #5078  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2022, 3:59 PM
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  #5079  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2022, 4:01 PM
PHLtoNYC PHLtoNYC is offline
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^ Wow, 2nd tallest building in U City?

I like the color palette.

Last edited by PHLtoNYC; Sep 27, 2022 at 5:25 PM.
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  #5080  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2022, 4:06 PM
PHLtoNYC PHLtoNYC is offline
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Originally Posted by BroadandMarket View Post
Anyone who is against the 76ers arena it at this point should just say they don't care about Market East being a sketchy dump. The Rite Aid is now closed at 10th and Market. The Burger King at 8th and Market closed. The Fashion District had a shooting at 6:30 PM on a Wednesday:
https://6abc.com/fashion-district-ma...fire/12227778/

The city should be happy that the 76ers are ready to invest in the area. The Chinatown community was also against the commuter rail tunnel and the convention center expansion, two successful and transformative projects. Chinatown ironically is also pushing for 676 to be capped. If you think the 76ers arena is going to gentrify Chinatown but the 676 capping will not, then you are severely mistaken. If anything the 676 cap will cause much more severe gentrification by all of those desolate parking lots around Vine from 8th to 13th.
Yea, I am lost at the negativity and trolling regarding this plan. As long at the 76ers owners invest in the entire stretch (seems like they will) then I support it. Plus, the owners have sway in attracting hotels, retailers, entertainment venues to the area, especially if their money is on the line. Not like that stretch is anything to write home about (minus the newer East Market project).
But people complain to complain. See discussion in the 2301 JFK thread.
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