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  #41  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2018, 8:43 PM
JSsocal JSsocal is offline
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The state isn't taking any land from property owners here, no one's saying anything about eminent domain (not yet).

But cuomo in particular has shown a willingness to embrace public private partnerships (a failure-in my mind- of deblasio). Keep in mind Moynihan station and Laguardia are being heeled by mostly private developers. There certainly is a scenario where the city works something out with vornado (who owns so much of the land around and over penn), in order to build a new station and new office space with hefty tax breaks to vornado.
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  #42  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2018, 8:47 PM
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As long as they keep their hands off of One Penn, it's good. There are a lot of things in that neighborhood that could be replaced, One Penn isn't one of them.
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  #43  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2018, 9:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Amanita View Post
As long as they keep their hands off of One Penn, it's good. There are a lot of things in that neighborhood that could be replaced, One Penn isn't one of them.
It has 2.7 mil-sq ft. I don't think they would demo that structure... if anything, possibly modify it.

Really the district or end goal is to get rid of all the crap around 1 Penn.


Exhibit A (Street view): https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7495...7i16384!8i8192

Exhibit B (Street view):https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7510...7i13312!8i6656

There is so much potential. The crap around MSG has to go.
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  #44  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2018, 9:51 PM
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Would you be cool with the government seizing YOUR property "for the greater good", after you had sunk a great deal of money into it?
If they made an exceedingly convincing argument for its' necessity and paid above fair market value... yep. Citizenship is more than flag waving parades and paying taxes for essential services, sometimes other sacrifices need to be made for the "greater good" - a phrase that has become almost taboo in this society but should be better understood and appreciated as a patriotic act.
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  #45  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2018, 10:15 PM
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^^^^

The sense of entitlement is the very poison that flows through the common NIMBY. No one is entitled to anything nor is anyone special or exempt from the collective improvement that must occur for a society to be successful... and in the end, as a nation, mother country comes 1st.

The success of the city affects everyone in the metro one way or another, big or small. We seem to have lost the bigger picture mentality. Sadly, the concept of Nationalism has been degraded to the point where people don't see the bigger picture (when it comes to being competitive and the best).
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  #46  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2018, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by chris08876 View Post
It has 2.7 mil-sq ft. I don't think they would demo that structure... if anything, possibly modify it.

Really the district or end goal is to get rid of all the crap around 1 Penn.


Exhibit A (Street view): https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7495...7i16384!8i8192

Exhibit B (Street view):https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7510...7i13312!8i6656

There is so much potential. The crap around MSG has to go.
Yeah, when I brought up the first link I was confronted with a four floor white brick..thing. Yeah, that can go. Ugh!

Apparently the plan for One and Two Penn is to eventually bring them together, so they share a common campus of sorts. That would actually be pretty damn cool, combined with the proposed reclad of Two Penn.

As for Chris's statement- that rhetoric sounds just a little too close to the forced collectivism of Soviet Russia for my tastes. You guys see nothing but good, but I am wary of the potential for abuse, and how quickly people get sacrificed or thrown under the bus for the sake of somebody's idea of "greater good". Where does such overarching power end? Just how much should the state be able to demand of or take from us, individually or collectively?
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  #47  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2018, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Design-mind View Post
Does this mean that the Penn Tower on the Hotel Pennsylvania site is dead?
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Originally Posted by JSsocal View Post
It'l be a good question what role vornado plays in all of this. Since they own the vast majority of the site. The one PP block needs a serious rethinking though, the 2 single story retail stumps on either end are abysmal.

I'm pretty sure Vornado is involved with what's going on here, as the major land owner in the area. The problem is, sure Vornado can build, but to what extent. What Cuomo is proposing is increasing the FAR in the area, possibly including the site of 15 Penn itself.

Keep in mind the City itself was also proposing and increase in development of the immediate area around MSG (remember Penn East and Penn West towers on either side of 1 Penn Plaza). More importantly though, the City was proposing to give the site of 2 Penn Plaza an unlimited FAR (along with the "four corners" sites, in the early Hudson Yards rezoning process. But the city being what it is, those plans were objected to by the City Council who had say over such things. THIS is where the state comes in, the state could override objections of the council, which never really wants to get anything done unless it can promise its members support for whatever each wants in their own districts. So, in a sense, the city's hands are tied here in respect to how much development can be approved.

The one site in NYC that has the most transit should not be hindered by limits on size, because if you can't build it there, where can you?

We'll see how Cuomo intends to move forward, but they are already talking going through the environmental and public review process. And you can be sure the freak show will be out in force against it. And all this does is add more time to the already overdue redevelopment of Penn Station. Nobody has the money to pay for these things, but when you come up with a solution to do something about it, they're all up in arms. They should have been this upset about Penn Station being allowed to rot in it's current state, constant overcrowding and delays, and overall ineptitude.
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  #48  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2018, 12:30 AM
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Just forget about this, tear it down, and start from scratch...



https://ny.curbed.com/2016/3/16/1124...aza-renderings







Forget about this, and build density...


https://archpaper.com/2016/08/new-re...lery-0-slide-0














**************************************************************




Another blast from the past...



https://www.nysun.com/real-estate/de...station/56577/

Developers To Detail $14B Plans Around Penn Station

By ELIOT BROWN
June 14, 2007


Quote:
A plan for building a set of towering skyscrapers, two grandlyscaled train halls, and a new Madison Square Garden around the existing Pennsylvania Station are rapidly advancing, and the state hopes to begin the public review process for the project, known as Moynihan Station, in the next few weeks.

The developers' revised designs, which are said to include a pair of towers taller than the Empire State Building to be built on the current site of Madison Square Garden, could swiftly transform Midtown South into a thriving epicenter of commercial activity centered around one of the largest transit hubs in the country.

Quote:
People familiar with the designs say they call for a complex containing 5.5 million square feet built on what is now Madison Square Garden. Primarily office buildings, it includes two towers whose spires will be taller than 1,400 feet.

Another tower, to be built along Seventh Avenue near One Penn Plaza, would utilize 2 million square feet of developable air rights transferred from the Farley Post Office site.







http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=163351




The 900 - 1,000 ft Penn East tower would have been built with a modified 1 Penn Plaza base...






Later plans just showed generic office towers rising up in the area...





Just happens to be the district Cuomo is proposing...



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Last edited by NYguy; Apr 1, 2018 at 12:52 AM.
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  #49  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2018, 1:33 PM
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The opportunity to do right by Penn Station died when the deal to move MSG to the west side of the Farley Post Office was thrown in the trash. That one plan would've opened up all kinds of opportunities to rebuild Penn Station and redevelop the surrounding blocks.

Vornado will have a big play in all of this either way. 15 Penn will happen soon as the Hudson Yards and Manhattan West gets gobbled up by new tenants. Lets see what opportunities for taller builds open up with this power play by Coumo
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  #50  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2018, 1:45 PM
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Since it looks like Dolan will never move, is it technically possible to build towers on top of an arena on top of a train terminal?

Also, I would like to see them extend that outline area one block south of Moynihan. Cannot believe there is a surface parking lot catty corner to Penn Station in 2018. That shit needs to be upzoned for a 100 story office tower.
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  #51  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2018, 1:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanita View Post
As for Chris's statement- that rhetoric sounds just a little too close to the forced collectivism of Soviet Russia for my tastes. You guys see nothing but good, but I am wary of the potential for abuse, and how quickly people get sacrificed or thrown under the bus for the sake of somebody's idea of "greater good". Where does such overarching power end? Just how much should the state be able to demand of or take from us, individually or collectively?
I fully understand. You wouldn't want an abuse of power of course. But I see it in terms of magnitude. What the state is seeking to rezone is not a large swath of land. Its to create the climate for development. The Penn District is an iota of the state using its power. If we recall the interstate system, destroying whole neighborhoods in some cases. The damage was done (as some places lost a ton of good neighborhoods), but in hindsight, it had to be done.

For the greater public good, its a compromise. And folks either uprooted (via eminent domain) are compensated and given way above market value.

If we recall the whole point of eminent domain: the condemnation of property by the government under the doctrine of eminent domain is envisaged to undertake programs for the benefit of the public as a whole.

There is even relocation assistance.

Now, if it results in forcing a few owners to leave or be forced to sell, in this case, given the potential of the area, its bound to result in some good.

A case study, off topic (but something to research) is how California (State) is creating the climate in certain cities to build higher and with greater density. Essentially forcing provincial local governments to expand their zoning codes.

I don't think this is overreaching. Typically the free-market reigns supreme, but sometimes, the free-market is limited due to the rules in place.
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  #52  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2018, 1:58 PM
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Its not a large area. A lot of the proxy sites are rubbish. For the collective good, for the sake of the largest train station in the U.S. in need of dire repair and expansion, the tax revenue from what will rise is needed.


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  #53  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2018, 3:15 PM
antinimby antinimby is offline
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^ Also, there are no old ladies living in a house in that area. These are all big time corporate or wealthy investor owners here. They are probably all for this proposal as it will be a financial boom.
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  #54  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2018, 7:18 PM
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Originally Posted by antinimby View Post
Since it looks like Dolan will never move, is it technically possible to build towers on top of an arena on top of a train terminal?
If they don't move the Garden, it should at least be rebuilt to fit in to the urban context of the area, similar to the original Barclays Center proposal that had the arena topped and surrounded by towers. That way the Garden stays, but the development potential above it is unleashed. Penn Station below can be opened up more with higher ceilings, and some daylight where possible.



Quote:
Also, I would like to see them extend that outline area one block south of Moynihan. Cannot believe there is a surface parking lot catty corner to Penn Station in 2018. That shit needs to be upzoned for a 100 story office tower.
And that's the thing about NY, areas can change from block to block. There's not much on the south side of Moynihan on 31st St besides parking lots, a DMV, Duncan Donuts, etc. But around the corner, 30th St is a very well kept residential block, and it's pretty much residential south of that. No reason to mess with that when there are commercial blocks to the north that would serve just as well. I would be against that. But I do believe there was a proposal floating around here a year or two ago for that parking lot on the corner.
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  #55  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2018, 12:14 AM
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https://www.politico.com/states/new-...-domain-340885

Penn Station language would bolster state case for eminent domain

By JIMMY VIELKIND
03/31/2018


Quote:
A provision pushed into the state’s $168.3 billion budget would declare Penn Station a threat to public safety and pave the way for a state authority to use eminent domain as it works on redevelopment, Gov. Andrew Cuomo told POLITICO.

Part of a budget bill introduced late Friday and given final passage overnight declares the Midtown transportation hub to be “antiquated, substandard, and inadequate to meet current transportation and public safety needs and presents an unreasonable risk to the public.”

Quote:
Putting the language into New York state statute will back up the Empire State Development Corp. as it negotiates with Madison Square Garden, whose theater the governor hopes to relocate to create a new entrance to Penn Station.

“It would support an eminent domain claim,” Cuomo said. “I don’t believe it ever comes to that, because I believe what it also says is, the state Legislature passed a law that says this is a public safety danger. You’re talking about two very reputable New York citizens with Madison Square Garden and Penn Plaza.”

Quote:
Assemblyman Dick Gottfried (D-Manhattan) and state Sen. Brad Hoylman (D-Manhattan), who represent the area, said they believed the law would strengthen the state’s hand in any challenge. Gottfried said he believed it was designed by Cuomo to “show MSG that he’s serious and make them more willing to negotiate on price.”

Quote:
State Sen. Liz Krueger (D-Manhattan) also was wary of Cuomo’s plan.

“It’s a power grab for eight blocks of New York City,” she said during a floor debate. “I don’t want Singapore in the middle of Manhattan. And I certainly don’t want one person up here to be deciding whether or not we’re going to have Singapore in the middle of Manhattan with no community participation or process or local government role.”
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  #56  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2018, 12:19 AM
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eminent domain is a slippery slope in this case. It should only be used for redevelopment when it comes to stubborn landlords and tenants refusing to improve condemned/dangerous structures, not to acquire extra funding for a state agenda. Of course Penn Station is an embarrassment, but that can be solved without stripping land away from those who own it. Sure, there is overcrowding, but there would need to be regular stampede deaths in Penn to convince me that this is the just course of action.
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  #57  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2018, 12:21 AM
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WTH is she bringing up Singapore about?

And even if I did fully understand the reference, I highly suspect an apples and oranges argument on her part.
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  #58  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2018, 12:27 AM
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...It should only be used for redevelopment when it comes to stubborn landlords refusing to address condemned/dangerous structures...
Which is prolly why they applied the verbiage in the provision. This is certainly a good move on Albany's part in trying to make City Hall the first to blink.
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  #59  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2018, 12:29 AM
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Which is prolly why they applied the verbiage in the provision. This is certainly a good move on Albany's part in trying to make City Hall the first to blink.
Indeed. I clarified the point I was trying to make in the above post.
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  #60  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2018, 12:37 AM
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[QUOTE=chris08876;8139580]Its not a large area. A lot of the proxy sites are rubbish. For the collective good, for the sake of the largest train station in the U.S. in need of dire repair and expansion, the tax revenue from what will rise is needed.

I don't see much being done on West 31st Between 7th and 8th ave.. across from MSG.. St John's the Baptist Church(150 years old) and the old Penn Station Power Station building is there.. I don't see either one being touched..

As for the rest of the area.. build away!
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