Hot cities or cold cities; 4 seasons or no seasons; desert cities or green cities?

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by CaliNative

California has lots of water. The Pacific. If only the coastal commission would let us build the desal. plants. The power to do the desal. could come from wind and solar. The desal plant we have near where I live in Carlsbad is great...produces half of our fresh water.

Aren't desalination plants bad for the environment, though? Don't they kill marine life?

[MAC123]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

Aren't desalination plants bad for the environment, though? Don't they kill marine life?

Technically the plants themselves are perfectly fine. The problem is they produce a by product of brine which is so heavy in salt and other things, that it can just kill biological life around it.

But they can always just stick all that in a random desert or salt flat, or in a container underground.

[homebucket]

I think if desalination can be done in a way that minimizes environmental impact that would be great. If we look at history, I'm not sure it's possible. Most large scale manmade projects have serious harmful downstream effects on the environment. Most people think you can just dump stuff into the ocean and forget about it, but in reality a lot of it gets broken down into microplastics and then ends up in our seafood, and then we end up ingesting it as well. If you've ever kept an aquarium, you'd also know that marine life is extremely sensitive to changes.

To the larger point, I think when other people say less people should be living in California because of limited resources like water, the reality is as others have pointed out, a significant part of water resources is devoted to agriculture. Obviously limiting private citizen usage helps but that's just a small drop in the bucket. Being the largest producer of food in the US owing to its unique Mediterranean climate, if we decrease our production, other states are going to have to step up, and in some cases, they can't, since they don't have the ideal climate.

Too much salt: water desalination plants harm environment: U.N.
By Alister Doyle, Environment Correspondent

OSLO (Reuters) - Almost 16,000 desalination plants worldwide produce bigger-than-expected flows of highly salty waste water and toxic chemicals that are damaging the environment, a U.N.-backed study said on Monday.

Desalination plants pump out 142 million cubic meters (5 billion cubic feet) of salty brine every day, 50 percent more than previous estimates, to produce 95 million cubic meters of fresh water, the study said.

About 55 percent of the brine is produced in desalination plants processing seawater in Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Qatar, according to the study by the U.N. University’s Canadian-based Institute for Water, Environment and Health (UNU-INWEH).

The hyper-salty water is mostly pumped into the sea and, over a year, would be enough to cover the U.S. state of Florida with 30 cms (one foot) of brine, it said of the fast-growing and energy-intensive technology that benefits many arid regions.

Brine, water comprising about five percent salt, often includes toxins such as chlorine and copper used in desalination, it said. By contrast, global sea water is about 3.5 percent salt.

Waste chemicals “accumulate in the environment and can have toxic effects in fish”, said Edward Jones, the lead author at UNU-INWEH who also works at Wageningen University in the Netherlands.

Brine can cut levels of oxygen in seawater near desalination plants with “profound impacts” on shellfish, crabs and other creatures on the seabed, leading to “ecological effects observable throughout the food chain”, he said.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-e...-idUSKCN1P81PX

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by homebucket

I’m guessing your almonds, avocados, cannabis, cherries, dates, peaches, plums, rice, strawberries, walnuts, and finest wines come from California though. We also have more certified organic farms than any other state.

Almonds, avocados, dates, walnuts, and wines (definitely the best ones), and multiple other crops... I would fully agree that those come from California.

Peaches, plums, strawberries... no, these are generally from the eastern US states and Florida. Cherries are probably half western state origin, half eastern (winter vs. summer).

I'm in no way attempting to downplay California's enormous agricultural production. I just think that many people likely do not realize how much agricultural production comes from states like NY, PA, MI, Carolinas... to say nothing of the midwest and Florida.

Originally Posted by Omaharocks

The NE doesn't produce much at all of its own food.

This is crap. Many states of the NE are among the top producers of numerous crops. What isn't grown in the NE, often comes from midwestern and southern states, and from Florida for year-round produce. Certain crops absolutely come from California, but Florida has supplanted California as the origin of multiple crops bound for the northeastern US.

Originally Posted by benp

Not true at all. Dairy, poultry, eggs, apples, grapes, corn, mushrooms, seafood, summer fruits and vegetables, etc.

Most of the grains come from the Midwest or are produced locally. Even cannabis will be locally produced per legalization laws in most states.

New York alone is the US:
#1 producer of yogurt, cottage cheese, sour cream
#2 producer of apples, snap beans, cabbage, maple syrup
#3 producer of milk, grapes, Italian cheeses, milk cows
#4 producer of all other cheese, corn for silage, calves

And also much of the perishable California produce doesn't make it as far as the Northeast due to time and cost of shipping.

Yeah... anyone who has ever traveled through New York or Pennsylvania would easily comprehend that both states are major agricultural regions.

[benp]

Originally Posted by MAC123

Technically the plants themselves are perfectly fine. The problem is they produce a by product of brine which is so heavy in salt and other things, that it can just kill biological life around it.

But they can always just stick all that in a random desert or salt flat, or in a container underground.

So, besides the cost of building the plants ($1B for Carlsbad), the cost of yearly maintenance ($2B over 20 years), electricity to run the plant (35 MW for Carlsbad), the disposal of brine (69 million gallons per day at Carlsbad) its not hard to see why new plants don't get built until there are no other options.

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by eschaton

and wine is disgusting.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Omaharocks

Yes, most of your produce in Pennsylvania does in fact come from California, including 100% of your avocados, walnuts, strawberries, almonds, dates, and most of your lettuce, citrus, dairy products, olives, pomegranates, nuts, peaches, grains, plums, pistachios...

Also, you seriously are claiming that 100% of Pennsylvania's strawberries and most of our citrus, dairy, peaches, grains come from California?

I'll give you the avocados, dates, nuts, and winter lettuce.

[CaliNative]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

Aren't desalination plants bad for the environment, though? Don't they kill marine life?

Studies have been done with the Carlsbad plant. So far, there is no evidence of any signigicant harm to marine life. The salty brine is dumped well offshore and is rapidly diluted. The benefits of reduced fresh water use from other sources like northern CA rivers far outweighs harm. The fish are still biting in the ocean off Carlsbad. The effects are being closely studied, and so far nothing bad. Build the Huntington Beach plant. Plus, if the power used to run the plants is environmentally friendly wind/solar/geothermal, even more reason to build.

[CaliNative]

Wzz

Originally Posted by homebucket

I think if desalination can be done in a way that minimizes environmental impact that would be great. If we look at history, I'm not sure it's possible. Most large scale manmade projects have serious harmful downstream effects on the environment. Most people think you can just dump stuff into the ocean and forget about it, but in reality a lot of it gets broken down into microplastics and then ends up in our seafood, and then we end up ingesting it as well. If you've ever kept an aquarium, you'd also know that marine life is extremely sensitive to changes.

To the larger point, I think when other people say less people should be living in California because of limited resources like water, the reality is as others have pointed out, a significant part of water resources is devoted to agriculture. Obviously limiting private citizen usage helps but that's just a small drop in the bucket. Being the largest producer of food in the US owing to its unique Mediterranean climate, if we decrease our production, other states are going to have to step up, and in some cases, they can't, since they don't have the ideal climate.



https://www.reuters.com/article/us-e...-idUSKCN1P81PX

I'll read these stories, but so far the impacts of the Carlsbad plant on marine life appear nil as far as I know.

[ChrisLA]

Originally Posted by pj3000

…strawberries... no, these are generally from the eastern US states and Florida.

I’m not sure where you get that information from because everything I’ve read on the Internet shows that California produces between 80 to 90% of all strawberries in the USA. Florida was second with only a small percentage and NY was 3rd. From what I’ve read Florida grows strawberries during the winter months but again look at the percentages, California 80 to 90%. During the winter months you rarely see strawberries in the markets in California, when you do they are quite expensive and smaller size (I think these are the ones from Florida or from Mexico).

If you ever driven through Ventura County you would see Strawberry fields everywhere, I see it every day as I drive through them on my way to work at a juvenile justice center out in the boonies. In fact I believe Oxnard CA has the biggest strawberry festival in the country. They also grow marijuana in the fields around the facility where I work sometimes, you can smell a strong scent from the plants on warm days, we laugh about it because the inmates are probably going crazy yearning to get some of it.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

Seriously though, I hate wine in general. I've had a couple which are decent (once had a wine from Uruguay which tasted like chocolate) but I'm not a fan of grape juice, and thus not a fan of alcoholic grape juice. Every time someone gets me to "try" one I invariably think it's not worth drinking.

Wife feels the same way about wine mostly, though I know she likes ice wine. When we went on vacation our host left a free bottle of wine and we wouldn't even open it.

Neither one of us are serious drinkers, but we're more the craft beer types (I love sours/funky wild-style ales, she likes stouts and porters). On rare occasions maybe a mixed drink, but they're kind of pointless unless you're trying to get drunk.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by ChrisLA

I’m not sure where you get that information from because everything I’ve read on the Internet shows that California produces between 80 to 90% of all strawberries in the USA. Florida was second with only a small percentage and NY was 3rd. From what I read Florida grows strawberries during the winter months but again look at the percentages, California 80 to 90%. During the winter months you rarely see strawberries in the markets in California, when you do they are quite expensive and smaller size (I think these are the ones from Florida or from Mexico).

If you ever driven through Ventura County you would see Strawberry fields everywhere, I see it every day as I drive through them on my way to work at a juvenile justice center out in the boonies. In fact I believe Oxnard CA has the biggest strawberry festival in the country. They also grow marijuana in the fields around the facility where I work sometimes, you can smell strong scent the plants on warm days, we laugh about it because the inmates are probably going crazy yearning to get some of it.

The biggest brand of strawberries I see is Driscoll's, which comes from a mix of Mexico, Florida, and California. But there's plenty of local strawberries available when they're in season - they're growing right now in my backyard!

Generally speaking I try to avoid buying any fruit which can grow in my local climate outside of the season it's ripe. I'll eat fruits like mangoes and bananas whenever, but I'll only eat local apples, pears, strawberries, and the like when they are in season and available in PA.

[CaliNative]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Could you point me to a nice, walkable Las Vegas neighborhood on streetview?

The covered walk downtown is fun. There are some nice areas downtown that are supposed to be walkable, but I haven't tried tgem. Maybe others can make suggestions.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by ChrisLA

I’m not sure where you get that information from because everything I’ve read on the Internet shows that California produces between 80 to 90% of all strawberries in the USA. Florida was second with only a small percentage and NY was 3rd. From what I read Florida grows strawberries during the winter months but again look at the percentages, California 80 to 90%. During the winter months you rarely see strawberries in the markets in California, when you do they are quite expensive and smaller size (I think these are the ones from Florida or from Mexico).

If you ever driven through Ventura County you would see Strawberry fields everywhere, I see it every day as I drive through them on my way to work at a juvenile justice center out in the boonies. In fact I believe Oxnard CA has the biggest strawberry festival in the country. They also grow marijuana in the fields around the facility where I work sometimes, you can smell strong scent the plants on warm days, we laugh about it because the inmates are probably going crazy yearning to get some of it.

Yeah, I don't doubt it one bit that CA produces that large of a %.

But 100% of Pennsylvania's strawberries (as was claimed by Omaharocks) certainly do not come from California. That's just a silly statement.

I'm sure significant percentage of strawberries that make their way to grocery stores in PA do come from California. But in the later spring and summer, strawberries around here are largely from in-state and surrounding states' farms (NY especially) and from Florida in the winter months.

I spent summers during college working for a fruit and produce distributor (everything from warehouse, delivery, ordering, sorting, etc.), and grew up in one of the largest fruit growing regions in the eastern US and the largest and oldest Concord grape-growing region in the world (alas, the wines from those grapes are generally pretty awful ) . I'm no agricultural expert, but I do have some experience in/exposure to the industry... and because of it, I came to understand the logistics of getting produce from farm to market.

[homebucket]

If CA wants to reduce its water usage, decoupling itself from almond production will probably provide the most immediate relief, as it accounts for about 10% of our total water usage. Doing so will be a significant challenge though with lots of push back from farmers. The next largest region producing almonds is Spain, which produces about a quarter of what CA produces annually.

California drought takes toll on world’s top almond producer
By TERENCE CHEA
August 17, 2021

FIREBAUGH, Calif. (AP) — As temperatures recently reached triple digits, farmer Joe Del Bosque inspected the almonds in his parched orchard in California’s agriculture-rich San Joaquin Valley, where a deepening drought threatens one of the state’s most profitable crops.

Del Bosque doesn’t have enough water to properly irrigate his almond orchards, so he’s practicing “deficit irrigation” — providing less water than the trees need. He left a third of his farmland unplanted to save water for the nuts. And he may pull out 100 of his 600 acres (243 hectares) of almond trees after the late summer harvest — years earlier than planned.

“We may have to sacrifice one of them at the end of the year if we feel that we don’t have enough water next year,” said Del Bosque, who also grows melons, cherries and asparagus. “That means that our huge investment that we put in these trees is gone.”

A historic drought across the U.S. West is taking a heavy toll on California’s $6 billion almond industry, which produces roughly 80% of the world’s almonds. More growers are expected to abandon their orchards as water becomes scarce and expensive.

It’s a sharp reversal for the almond’s relentless expansion in California’s agricultural Central Valley, where dry Mediterranean-like climate and reliable irrigation system made it the perfect location to grow the increasingly popular nut.

...

Almond orchards are thirsty permanent crops that need water year-round, clashing with a worsening drought and intensifying heat waves tied to climate change. Scientists say climate change has made the American West much warmer and drier in the past 30 years and will keep making weather more extreme.

California almond production grew from 370 million pounds (nearly 168 million kilograms) in 1995 to a record 3.1 billion pounds (1.4 billion kilograms) in 2020, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture. During that period, land planted with almond trees grew from 756 square miles (1,958 square kilometers) to 2,500 square miles (6,475 square kilometers).

...

Almonds are California’s top agricultural export. The industry ships about 70% of its almonds overseas, fueled by strong demand in India, East Asia and Europe, according to the board.

https://apnews.com/article/business-...9d2f0d012b96d3

[montréaliste]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

Aren't desalination plants bad for the environment, though? Don't they kill marine life?

(?) I always thought Marines are trained to fend for themselves.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MAC123

Technically the plants themselves are perfectly fine. The problem is they produce a by product of brine which is so heavy in salt and other things, that it can just kill biological life around it.

But they can always just stick all that in a random desert or salt flat, or in a container underground.

Perdon my ignorance but why not sell it as salt?

One industrial customer of ours is a chlorine plant and as raw material, they buy boatloads of NaCl. Don’t know where it comes from but it arrives by ship via the St. Lawrence Seaway.

Plus, consider all the table salt that gets consumed in a day on this continent …

[LA21st]

Originally Posted by homebucket

If CA wants to reduce its water usage, decoupling itself from almond production will probably provide the most immediate relief, as it accounts for about 10% of our total water usage. Doing so will be a significant challenge though with lots of push back from farmers. The next largest region producing almonds is Spain, which produces about a quarter of what CA produces annually.



https://apnews.com/article/business-...9d2f0d012b96d3

Sounds good. I really don't care if they leave.

[MAC123]

Originally Posted by lio45

Perdon my ignorance but why not sell it as salt?

One industrial customer of ours is a chlorine plant and as raw material, they buy boatloads of NaCl. Don’t know where it comes from but it arrives by ship via the St. Lawrence Seaway.

Plus, consider all the table salt that gets consumed in a day on this continent …

I've seen that idea thrown around. Plus I belive among other things it contains lithium as well, which is rather important.

I guess it depends on a cost ratio.
How much it costs to seperate and purify vs how much they can sell it for.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Could you point me to a nice, walkable Las Vegas neighborhood on streetview?

80% of neighborhoods anywhere in the USA are not very walkable.