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  #81  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2022, 11:33 AM
shadyunltd shadyunltd is offline
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Brampton Manor is a highly selective public school, though. In no way does it represent the average London public school.

Further, there has been a strong push by Oxbridge in recent years to increase diversity and as such reduce the number of offers given to private school students (which skew white and upper class).

Not disagreeing with you, just caveating a few things.
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  #82  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2022, 12:05 PM
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Brampton Manor is not a public school (*edit -'public' school in the UK means private in case you're confusing terms, no one knows why they call it that), it's a State school where more than half qualify for free meals -it's poverty rates are well above the London average. It is indeed selective now due to its winning results, but all applicants are from the local area, which is the second most deprived borough in the city:

https://metro.co.uk/2022/08/18/a-lev...idge-17204666/

90% of its pupils now receive straight A's or A*s in the finals - a phenomenon from only a decade ago of turnaround.




Of course Brampton Manor is not representative of all of London -it's the best in the country -but London schools overall score significantly better than the rest, despite higher rates of poverty and enough for the government to publish a Paper on it. It's still largely a mystery (though they found strong correlations of overperformance from Bangladeshi, Black African and 'Other' children), but they've found similar effects in Manchester and Birmingham, the country's next two biggest cities:

https://assets.publishing.service.go...l_20112020.pdf

Last edited by muppet; Oct 30, 2022 at 12:44 PM.
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  #83  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2022, 12:38 PM
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Btw if you go to private schools now, they are very mixed at least in the Southeast -basically London's elite is now full of 1 percenters from abroad who come here to park their money, and who think their kids will benefit from a classy education in English, where the school invariably looks like Hogwarts. Successive waves of Arabs, Europeans, East Asians, South Asians and West Africans add to the mix.

The two most exclusive schools in the country:

Eton College kids (75% are Londoners or from the local area)


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/imageserv...2C1992%2C0%2C0

Harrow (also West London)




I'm not talking so much about race, but class that is a big definer in the UK, and haunts social division. If you're born working class, no matter how rich you become, you'll always be working class in the eyes of many, and vice versa. It's much more a 'thing' here than anywhere else in the world, and a big source of injustice (eg being judged on you accent, that can stop your career). People will openly mix between races and creeds, but often never outside their class.
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  #84  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2022, 2:33 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Those outfits look absurd in 2022. I'm guessing those codes get relaxed in the next few years. Even the WASPiest, most traditional privates here in the U.S. have toned down dress requirements. Collegiate, a 400-year old Manhattan school that has educated Vanderbilts and Kennedys, was one of the last holdouts, but now accepts polo shirts/khakis.

Pretty sure that major metros outscore "the provinces" worldwide. SE England outscores the rest of the UK bc it's the wealthiest, most educated, and most immigrant-heavy region, so should contribute a disproportionate share of admissions to Oxbridge and the like.

In the U.S., the Ivies were obviously traditionally home to WASP Northeastern elites. Then when Jews (mostly working class and from Bronx/Brooklyn) started taking more and more admissions beginning in the 1920's, there were "gentlemen's quotas" instituted. By the 1970's, the schools started diversifying, and basically all are majority nonwhite, though overwhelmingly from the largest and wealthiest U.S. metros. Ivy equivalents like MIT, Stanford, Duke, Chicago have largely the same narrative.

But the biggest feeder schools are generally urban magnet schools, with very high share of poor students. Stuyvesant High, the biggest Harvard feeder, is roughly 75% Asian and 70% Free/Reduced Lunch (a proxy for low income in the U.S.).
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  #85  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2022, 6:38 AM
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Southeast England doesn't overperform, only London (there's a stylus scratch in child poverty rates once stepping outside the capital, going from highest to lowest. Although the SE is also high minority it's a different ballpark -it's the minorities who've made it rich and moved to leafy exurbia). The most deprived boroughs see the biggest difference, who average a grade higher for all subjects compared to their counterparts of equivalent means outside the city. I imagine the harder the family has fallen, the more they will push their kids to get out, and are likely inspired by local success stories (whereas the social mobility for the poor has much less opportunity outside a big city, and gets instilled from one generation to the next).

Out of the Top 10 highest performing boroughs in the country, 8 are in London, evenly split between the richest and poorest.

Last edited by muppet; Oct 31, 2022 at 12:56 PM.
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  #86  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2022, 1:59 PM
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Greater London contains most of SE suburbia. So the "city proper" (technically not a city but whatever) captures most of the regional population. The commuter belt towns within London's traditional sphere but outside Greater London limits aren't that populous.

The historically distinct SE population centers, like Portsmouth or Southampton, would be more akin to the rest of England.
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  #87  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2022, 2:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I'd imagine the vast majority of students who start out ahead are advantaged due to parental involvement.

My 5-yo kindergartener reads and does math at a 2nd grade level, but I doubt he's unusually smart. We've been tutoring him, almost every day, since he was 3. And reading to him, daily, since in utero. And were fortunate enough to put him in a STEAM-oriented preschool from the beginning.
I think that post may be the best thing I have ever seen you post on this forum.
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  #88  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2022, 2:41 PM
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The pre-school consultant nonsense is obviously ridiculous, but I know lots of people who took test prep classes or had tutors for Cincinnati high school entrance exams. It's very common, actually.
There is a whole industry based on prepping for high school admissions exams here in Quebec with both tutoring, in-class prep on weekends or simply kits you can buy to do the prep at home.

Since high school starts in Grade 7 (for you guys), it's 11-12 year olds who are doing these exams.

Public high schools also run exams, auditions and tryouts for their specialized programs.

My kids all did the private school exams at that age.

Private schools are partly subsidized in Quebec, costing on average about 3000 USD per year. As a result there is high demand for them, but the admissions process tends to be highly meritocratic.

About 20% of high schoolers in Quebec are in private school. The % is even higher in the major cities.
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  #89  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2022, 3:12 PM
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
No kidding.

The head of my college dept grew up in Manhattan and was valedictorian of his class at Brooklyn Tech. I think he graduated around 1970. He ended up going to MIT for undergrad and Yale for grad. He told us that his dad made him get up to study at 4am every morning, after having studied for several hours after school each day. So he was studying for 5-8 hours every single school day outside of school.
Quoting myself...the guy I described in this post was featured in the NY Times today:
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/31/o...k-america.html

This body of work is the product of hundreds of days and nights of work over a 7-year period...after about 10 years of previous activity.

I got to know him pretty well as a student and saw him last month at the show's opening in NYC. He's definitely among the sharpest and most insightful people I've known, as tends to be the case with high achievers in the arts.

I can't remember the name of the woman who I believe was the smartest person I've ever encountered. She worked at Princeton University in some capacity (I can't remember her title) where she created standardized tests. I went with 3-4 people to an office in Columbus, OH be trained on how to score the written section of a test that she had devised. It was a humbling experience!

Also, special thanks to whatever mod deleted my post from this past weekend without giving a reason.
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  #90  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2022, 3:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
Quoting myself...the guy I described in this post was featured in the NY Times today:
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/31/o...k-america.html

This body of work is the product of hundreds of days and nights of work over a 7-year period...after about 10 years of previous activity.

I got to know him pretty well as a student and saw him last month at the show's opening in NYC. He's definitely among the sharpest and most insightful people I've known, as tends to be the case with high achievers in the arts.

I can't remember the name of the woman who I believe was the smartest person I've ever encountered. She worked at Princeton University in some capacity (I can't remember her title) where she created standardized tests. I went with 3-4 people to an office in Columbus, OH be trained on how to score the written section of a test that she had devised. It was a humbling experience!

Also, special thanks to whatever mod deleted my post from this past weekend without giving a reason.
you sure she didn't work at ETS (which for some reason, gives their address in Princeton?).
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  #91  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2022, 4:20 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is online now
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Originally Posted by SIGSEGV View Post
you sure she didn't work at ETS (which for some reason, gives their address in Princeton?).
I have no idea. I only worked there for about 10 weeks. Those test scoring places have almost zero full-time employees. They ramp up hiring every spring and fall.

The huge staff became necessary when they shifted away from multiple choice English sections to written tests in the early 2000s. They don't score for grammar, spelling, or handwriting. This is an attempt to mitigate for the poor language skills of many southerners, Appalachians, blacks, and immigrants, but these groups still score terribly anyway. We have these big chunks of the American population that are doomed from the beginning to never understand contracts or other writing of any complexity. The schools are powerless against the anti-intellectual cultures these people are raised in.
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  #92  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2022, 6:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Greater London contains most of SE suburbia. So the "city proper" (technically not a city but whatever) captures most of the regional population. The commuter belt towns within London's traditional sphere but outside Greater London limits aren't that populous.

The historically distinct SE population centers, like Portsmouth or Southampton, would be more akin to the rest of England.
Actually SE England has a population of 9.2 million on the western and southern side to London, equivalent to the city proper that is Greater London (and the only region that grows faster). It's heavily built up and often referred to as a big car park. The eastern and northern side is known as the East of England which is 6.3 million and much less dense.

This map only shows the main towns:




This shows the density better, albeit 20 years ago (and 4 million people less) -note the peppering of thousands of new commuter dorms, in light pink:



Because of Green Belt law the suburbs can't spread out and blanket the place, they have to form high density nodules. The jury's out on whether they actually protected the countryside or just made a much larger quasi rural-quasi urban monster. SE England (left and south side of that map) is about the same size and density as New Jersey. It's all connected up by about a thousand heavy rail stations with lines into the city.

Last edited by muppet; Oct 31, 2022 at 7:23 PM.
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  #93  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2022, 7:11 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is online now
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Today's preposterous NY Times house-hunt article doesn't hesitate to list "good schools" as a motivation for neighborhood selection:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...rownstone.html

The source of this couple's money, of course, is mysterious. Somehow a "translator and editor" who just threw down a few hundred thou on a $1.5 million building has the funds to BUY a Steinway grand piano. Even an old Steinway grand typically costs $50,000.

Plus, it sounds like there's a communication problem with this couple, as the dude had no idea the piano guys were coming over.
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  #94  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2022, 8:48 PM
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Heh, I read that article. They picked the worst house.

IMO they only picked that house bc wife is Chinese and it's close to Chinese neighborhoods. It met none of their other requirements.

I assume a very high share of young(er) buyers in high cost markets are using inheritances or parents money. We know a social worker who bought an $1.8 million apartment. Unless she's dealing drugs on the side, or is a top Onlyfans star, it's gotta be the Bank of Mom & Dad.
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  #95  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2022, 9:25 PM
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
Today's preposterous NY Times house-hunt article doesn't hesitate to list "good schools" as a motivation for neighborhood selection:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...rownstone.html

The source of this couple's money, of course, is mysterious. Somehow a "translator and editor" who just threw down a few hundred thou on a $1.5 million building has the funds to BUY a Steinway grand piano. Even an old Steinway grand typically costs $50,000.

Plus, it sounds like there's a communication problem with this couple, as the dude had no idea the piano guys were coming over.
It said he's a robotics engineer. It is plausible that he could afford to buy the house without family money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Heh, I read that article. They picked the worst house.

IMO they only picked that house bc wife is Chinese and it's close to Chinese neighborhoods. It met none of their other requirements.
It was actually the closest one to their price point and it was near the Brooklyn Chinatown. I knew that's the one they chose as soon as they described it. Their picture at the top of the article also gave it away too lol.

On a related note, I think that first brownstone in Bed-Stuy is the same one that I was getting bombarded with ads for on social media. The ad never showed the interior though, and I understand why after seeing that kitchen lol.
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  #96  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2022, 9:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Heh, I read that article. They picked the worst house.

IMO they only picked that house bc wife is Chinese and it's close to Chinese neighborhoods. It met none of their other requirements.

I assume a very high share of young(er) buyers in high cost markets are using inheritances or parents money. We know a social worker who bought an $1.8 million apartment. Unless she's dealing drugs on the side, or is a top Onlyfans star, it's gotta be the Bank of Mom & Dad.
That reminds me of those HGTV shows where these young couples go house hunting with a $1million budget; he is a part-time juggler and she sells crafts on Etsy.
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  #97  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2022, 4:29 AM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
I'd argue that helping out your kids with a down payment is setting them up for success. In higher cost places, there's really no other way to buy property if you're young and starting out; and being able to start out by owning property makes it easier to build wealth; which in turn makes it easier to then help out your future kids with buying their first home, and so on.
It’s probably also in the parents best interest as their children are basically investments and their ticket to a place to stay once they’re no longer independent. A way of avoiding the nursing home. Multigenerational households are very common here.
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  #98  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2022, 2:53 PM
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
Today's preposterous NY Times house-hunt article doesn't hesitate to list "good schools" as a motivation for neighborhood selection:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...rownstone.html

The source of this couple's money, of course, is mysterious. Somehow a "translator and editor" who just threw down a few hundred thou on a $1.5 million building has the funds to BUY a Steinway grand piano. Even an old Steinway grand typically costs $50,000.

Plus, it sounds like there's a communication problem with this couple, as the dude had no idea the piano guys were coming over.
NYC is so full of trustfund babies it's preposterous. I know so many people in NY who's parents still contribute to their rent in their 30s it's not even funny. Then they miraculously buy a $2MM apartment and you find out daddy is a billionaire.

I'm not particularly in the "scene" in NY but I know and/or are acquanited with the children and/or grandchildren of at least 4 billionaires. None of them wear it on their sleeves or readily talk about it but it becomes obvious when one day your friend who works in PR is buying a $7MM apartment on Leonard Street. Or another who is a fledging interior designer moves into a $6k month apartment.

It's rampant.
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  #99  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2022, 2:56 PM
3rd&Brown 3rd&Brown is offline
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That reminds me of those HGTV shows where these young couples go house hunting with a $1million budget; he is a part-time juggler and she sells crafts on Etsy.
LOL.

The only thing I love more than those shows are the comments of the NY Times Cooking website. Like a world class chef will post a very simple delicious recipe and 7,000 people will comment: "Recipe is perfect. Except instead of onion I used shallot, and instead of butter I used vegetable oil, ommitted the garlic, used Chicken instead of Beef, cooked in 15 minutes at 700 degrees instead of 1 hour at 325"! FIVE STARS!!!
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  #100  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2022, 4:01 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is online now
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Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown View Post
I know so many people in NY who's parents still contribute to their rent in their 30s it's not even funny.
I remember that my parents refused to cosign on the lease or utilities when I moved into my first apartment (I recall that my roommate's mom actually cosigned for me), so I was completely financially independent at age 19. Year after year of working two or more jobs and living with 40+ roommates to get out of college debt and start investing.

I really don't care that these people have all of this given to them - they're certainly not all bad people - but the problems begin when these people who have never had to work start lecturing me about how to think about the poor and working class.
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