One of the biggest myths which hurts cities: That schools matter much

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by edale

Thankfully, Cincinnati Public Schools has one of the top public high schools in the country. So, those who test in can receive an amazing education (with many of the same benefits of my private school) for free. Having Walnut Hills High School as an option has definitely helped the city of Cincinnati retain families- especially middle class and above.

Except some people fear that their kids won't test in to Walnut, and so they use that as an excuse to move out of the city or not move into the city.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Urban areas often don't have school buses.

My high school had a mix, including two special metro bus routes known derisively as "The 'Tro". There was the East Side Tro and the West Side Tro. These routes traveled about 10 miles in either direction and stopped to transfer with regular city bus routes.

Cincinnati Public Schools had a major controversy this year because Metro dropped all of those special school-specific routes after a recent transit tax increase funded improved service on established bus routes. They were also having trouble hiring more bus drivers.

[Vlajos]

Originally Posted by PhillyRising

We hear that families are supposedly fleeing Philadelphia because of the schools but two of the top public high schools in Pennsylvania are in the Philadelphia Schools district. Any of the schools in the Philadelphia suburbs that do dominate the top 10 are all in very high income, high property value areas. So I can't imagine anyone middle class leaving the city are moving to suburbs with schools that much better than what they are leaving...if that really is the case. Downingtown is the only district on this list in the Phillu burbs where you could find a somewhat affordable older home in the Borough...that's about it. However, Downingtown school taxes are very high. I live in that district and it's not uncommon for a family whose kids are now out of those schools to sell the home to rid themselves of the the tax burden. The school taxes in the neighboring West Chester district are like 40 percent less and you can still have a really nice house.

1.Julia R. Masterman Secondary School (Philadelphia City School District) Philadelphia, PA
2. Downingtown STEM Academy (Downingtown Area School District) Downington, PA
3. Radnor High School (Radnor Township School District) Radnor, PA
4.Conestoga High School (Tredyffrin-Easttown School District) Berwyn, PA
5.Central High School (Philadelphia City School District) Philadelphia, PA
6.Unionville High School (Unionville-Chadds Ford School District) Kennett Square, PA
7.Peters Township High School (Peters Township School District) Mcmurray, PA
8.Central Bucks High School-East (Central Bucks School District) Doylestown, PA
9.Pittsburgh CAPA 6-12 (Pittsburgh School District) Pittsburgh, PA
10.New Hope-Solebury High School (New Hope-Solebury School District) New Hope, PA

Are the top Philadelphia schools selective enrollment? How many students do they accomodate? How do other Philly schools rank?

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

Except some people fear that their kids won't test in to Walnut, and so they use that as an excuse to move out of the city or not move into the city.

ditto for chicago and the "big 5" magnet highschools (payton, northside, jones, young, lane).

yes, as mentioned earlier in the thread, they are the 5 highest ranked public highschools in the entire state of illinois.

but if your kid doesn't test into one of them, most of the regular neighborhood CPS highschools are seen as extremely "less than" by the middle class and up.

as crawford mentioned earlier, a lot of upper middle class people simply say "fuck that, i'm not rolling those dice. let's just move up to Wilmette so little Grayson is guaranteed a spot at New Trier."

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by Vlajos

Are the top Philadelphia schools selective enrollment? How many students do they accomodate? How do other Philly schools rank?

Like most urban school districts, it's extremely top-heavy. Philadelphia School District in general is not good.

OP, who I think is from Pittsburgh, might feel differently if the Allegheny county school district's were more like the larger urban school districts in the country.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by edale

I'm not inclined to believe that schools have little impact on academic performance, as is being claimed, but even if that's true, that is only part of the equation. Schools largely determine the social network for kids. When they're little, it doesn't matter as much, but by junior high/high school, I think it becomes very important. You want to normalize success and achievement.

No kidding.

The head of my college dept grew up in Manhattan and was valedictorian of his class at Brooklyn Tech. I think he graduated around 1970. He ended up going to MIT for undergrad and Yale for grad. He told us that his dad made him get up to study at 4am every morning, after having studied for several hours after school each day. So he was studying for 5-8 hours every single school day outside of school.

[Vlajos]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

Like most urban school districts, it's extremely top-heavy. Philadelphia School District in general is not good.

OP, who I think is from Pittsburgh, might feel differently if the Allegheny county school district's were more like the larger urban school districts in the country.

Got it, I figured that was the case, but did not know for certain. Most urban public high schools are terrible. Even the teachers that work in them will tell you that.

We are lucky in Chicago that some attendance area High Schools are starting to gain traction and have very good reputations and outcomes now. But the number of those is limited compared to the vast majority of High Schools in the City. There are definitely more good options for public elementary schools though.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

OP, who I think is from Pittsburgh, might feel differently if the Allegheny county school district's were more like the larger urban school districts in the country.

I mean it is basically. PPS is majority black (55% or so, IIRC) despite the city being less than 25% black.

Broadly speaking, there are considered to be three tiers of schools within the school district:

Professional-class schools: These are all schools that upper-middle class folks actively try to get their kids into. Mostly these are magnets. On the elementary level, Dilworth K-5, Montessori K-5, and Colfax K-8 (which is a neighborhood school covering Squirrel Hill and other wealthy areas) are the most popular. On the 6-12 level CAPA is highly regarded (it's an arts-focused school - entry is by portfolio/audition only), as is the relatively new STEM 6-12 school, Sci-Tech.

Mid-range schools: Kind of a grab-bag. Inclusive of both the remainder of the magnet system along with the remaining working-class white and ethnically mixed neighborhood schools (most of the latter being in the southern portion of the city). Some schools in this group are seeing their prestige rise over time, while others are declining.

Bottom tier: There are a fair number of neighborhood schools in the North Side and East End which are still 95%+ black by enrollment and sit near the bottom of the rankings.

My daughter ended up at our second choice for elementary school in the magnet system, and unfortunately the school ended up going into decline while she was there. Essentially it had a past history as a German language magnet, but the district couldn't find enough German teachers, so over the years it switched from an immersion school to a school with a dual focus on German and Mandarin, where both were just taught a few times a week. My daughter came in on the Mandarin side. It turns out though the German program was what made the school popular with the white professional class, and the school's white population dropped from maybe 40% to like 15% in the six years she was there. There was a pretty bad principal the first few years she was there, but once this was taken care of honestly the school was fine, and we couldn't understand the continued decline in interest.

Our daughter wanted to go to CAPA for the arts program, which required a portfolio and then a test where you draw from observation. Although she's interested in art, and we thought she had a nice portfolio, she failed the entrance exam, which I believe is due to her being a slow artist and not being able to finish the sketch within the time period of the test. She was pretty upset about it, but she ended up getting into her #2 (an international baccalaureate school) which is very academically rigorous, and is a straight A student. She has the opportunity to apply to other schools for 9th grade next year, but doesn't want to.

In the case of my son we decided to start over with the lottery and ignore sibling preference, and he got into his first choice school which has been a great experience. We are a bit concerned though, because unlike our daughter he doesn't get an automatic slot into the IB middle school. He wants to go to the STEM middle school, but it's very competitive. As a fallback the neighborhood middle school is fine (the area is rapidly gentrifying, meaning it's now seen as "improving" with the big demographic shift in the student body), but the neighborhood HS is somewhere even I think would be unacceptable.

[Investing In Chicago]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

ditto for chicago and the "big 5" magnet highschools (payton, northside, jones, young, lane).

yes, as mentioned earlier in the thread, they are the 5 highest ranked public highschools in the entire state of illinois.

but if your kid doesn't test into one of them, most of the regular neighborhood CPS highschools are seen as extremely "less than" by the middle class and up.

as crawford mentioned earlier, a lot of upper middle class people simply say "fuck that, i'm not rolling those dice. let's just move up to Wilmette so little Grayson is guaranteed a spot at New Trier."

On top of test scores, CPS' big 5 also consider race and address when evaluating the students they accept. So if you are a white family in Lincoln Park, lot's of luck.

[Vlajos]

Originally Posted by Investing In Chicago

On top of test scores, CPS' big 5 also consider race and address when evaluating the students they accept. So if you are a white family in Lincoln Park, lot's of luck.

CPS does not consider race, that is illegal as it should be. They do divide the city into 4 categories that are based on area income not individual income. So indirectly there is correlation between race and income in admissions. Areas coded tier 1 are the lowest income and the grades and test scores required to get in to top schools are much lower than tier 4 areas. I know white families in tier 2 areas that easily get in to the top High Schools with kids that go to solid Catholic or other privates but would not if they lived in tier 4.

[Investing In Chicago]

Originally Posted by Vlajos

CPS does not consider race, that is illegal as it should be. They do divide the city into 4 categories that are based on area income not individual income. So indirectly there is correlation between race and income in admissions. Areas coded tier 1 are the lowest income and the grades and test scores required to get in to top schools are much lower than tier 4 areas. I know white families in tier 2 areas that easily get in to the top High Schools with kids that go to solid Catholic or other privates but would not if they lived in tier 4.

Right, but race is indirectly considered. If you are a family in Lincoln Park, you have. a tough time getting in. My neighbors in Lakeview hired a consultant to help them navigate the CPS magnet programs, and they were basically told, while their child tested in, because of where they live, they were not accepted. If they lived 6 miles south, they would have likely gotten in with lesser scores.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Investing In Chicago

Right, but race is indirectly considered. If you are a family in Lincoln Park, you have. a tough time getting in. My neighbors in Lakeview hired a consultant to help them navigate the CPS magnet programs, and they were basically told, while their child tested in, because of where they live, they were not accepted. If they lived 6 miles south, they would have likely gotten in with lesser scores.

They should've moved.

[Investing In Chicago]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

They should've moved.

They did move….to Hinsdale.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Vlajos

We are lucky in Chicago that some attendance area High Schools are starting to gain traction and have very good reputations and outcomes now.

what shools are on that list in your opinion?

lincoln park HS is the only blatantly obvious one.

what else?

Originally Posted by Investing In Chicago

They did move….to Hinsdale.

ewww.

[Vlajos]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

what shools are on that list in your opinion?

lincoln park HS is the only blatantly obvious one.

what else?





ewww.

Yeah, LP, Amundsen and Taft for sure. My kids went to elementary school with kids that chose to go to Senn and Lake View, so I think those schools while not at LP, Amundsen and Taft levels are likely to get there assuming current trajectory. Of course that is a huge assumption.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by Vlajos

Are the top Philadelphia schools selective enrollment? How many students do they accomodate? How do other Philly schools rank?

All of the top Philly high schools are special admission. Yes. Masterman is very small, about 500 kids, but Central is huge, close to 3,000 the last time I checked. But there are others that are also great right behind these two, so there are many good options for people in Philadelphia in terms of high schools.

Central is a fascinating place. It (might be?) is one of the oldest public high schools in the country and for a very long while...it was so prestigious that a diploma from Central High school was considered a Bachelors degree. People don't say what year they graduated (i.e. 2015) but rather the # graduating class they were in, i.e. 235 (the 235th graduating class from Central).

Navigating the elementary and middle school landscape is actually much more difficult than the high school situation, because many of the neighborhood schools are not very good and pretty much you are assigned based on where you live.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Investing In Chicago

They did move….to Hinsdale.

It's probably for the best. If they can afford to hire a consultant to advise on getting their kid into a selective public school then it would be pretty gross for them to be competing for spaces against working class families on the South Side.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Vlajos

Yeah, LP, Amundsen and Taft for sure. My kids went to elementary school with kids that chose to go to Senn and Lake View, so I think those schools while not at LP, Amundsen and Taft levels are likely to get there assuming current trajectory. Of course that is a huge assumption.

yeah, amundsen and taft are also under 50% low-income, so they're probably in that club with LP HS as well.

but lakeview and senn are still over 75% low-income, so most middle class families are staying away for now.

other than LP, amundsen, and taft, are there any other boundary CPS highschools that are <50% low-income?

selfishly, we're in the amundsen zone, so we've got a good "plan B" option if one or both of my kids don't get into a "big 5".

[Vlajos]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

yeah, amundsen and taft are also under 50% low-income, so they're proably in that club with LP HS as well.

but lakeview and senn are still over 75% low-income, so most middle class families are staying away for now.

other that LP, amundsen, and taft, are there any other boundary CPS highschools that are <50% low-income?

selfishly, we're in the amundsen zone, so we've got a good "plan B" option if one or both of my kids don't get into a "big 5".

You should have no issue with sending your kids to Amundsen. I have a kid there and a kid at Lane. Both my wife and I prefer Amundsen to Lane. Principal P runs the school perfectly and doesn't take BS. She has high standards for her teachers. Lane may just be too big, it obviously offers a lot of top notch classes but it is very impersonal and teachers can be kind of shitty. We know a lot of kids that go to Northside, and most are social misfits. I would not want my kids going there. Whitney is too far as is Payton. I don't remember the name of the 5th SE HS, but it's not very good and it's even farther away.

[eschaton]

Pittsburgh used to have a racial quota system for its magnet system, which was intended in order to keep the school system integrated. Essentially every magnet school was supposed to be 50% black, 50% white/other. However, in practice more black parents always wanted to get into the magnet system than white parents (because the neighborhood schools in black neighborhoods were not as well regarded) meaning the outcome was discriminatory (white parents could usually just get open enrollment anywhere, while black parents were put on waiting lists). The U.S. Supreme Court struck down the system some time in the 2000s (2007, IIRC) and now they attempt to balance on things like free/reduced student lunches instead, though the system is slowly segregating, with some magnets getting heavily white while others become heavily black.

Other than the CAPA portfolio/rehearsal requirement, every other magnet is based upon lottery in the city. However, there are various factors which make you more likely to get into a school. The city is divided into three geographic chunks (East, South, and North/Central) and you get an extra chance to get into a magnet which is in the same area as your residence. You also get additional chances based upon already having a sibling within the school. Finally there's certain programs which have continuance from elementary to middle, or middle to high. So for example since my daughter went to a school with a language focus, she automatically got into the IB middle school program, provided she placed that #1 on her admission.

My understanding is that once you get past the elementary level the requirements for staying in the magnet system become more exacting (can't have worse than a 2.5 GPA, can't have too many unexcused absences, can't be suspended too many times, etc.) which means the real troublemakers get filtered out. I know when my daughter was younger she always had 1-2 kids in her class who acted out and made learning hard for everyone else, but they've all been booted back into the neighborhood schools now, so school is pretty quiet for her.