HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #1  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2022, 3:05 PM
eschaton eschaton is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,208
One of the biggest myths which hurts cities: That schools matter much

This has frequently been a topic in threads that drift in that direction, but I think having a dedicated thread to the subject would be really helpful.

One of the major reasons that professional-class people often give for moving away from cities once they become parents is "the schools." Leaving aside bad-faith arguments which really boil down to racism, this determination is often made by looking at the school ranking somewhere like Greatschools, or standardized test scores in the state. They presume a mediocre to low scoring school is a "bad" school, and don't want their kids negatively impacted. Hence they move their kids to a "good" school.

The problem with this analysis is the priors of it are entirely, 100% backwards. Many studies have concluded that good schools do not produce good students. Instead, good students produce good schools.

There's an issue when it comes to measuring school quality which is known as "selection bias." To give a clear example of this, consider the average undergraduate at Yale versus the average undergraduate at a low-ranked four-year college. The Yale student will have far higher levels of aptitude upon graduating than the student at the non-selective school. However, if you track changes in aptitude across the four years of college, the overall improvement level (as a percentage) would be identical. Yale does better because it starts with better raw material, more or less. The selectiveness of it is what makes it high-performing.

The same basic principles work at high-performing primary and secondary schools. Top suburban public schools do better than urban public schools because you generally need to have some level of wealth to buy into these districts, wealth is correlated to some degree with parental aptitude, and parental aptitude is correlated with child aptitude. Much the same thing is true for private schools (need $$$ to get in, plus they can kick you out if you have issues), charters (most of the modest performance boost happens when schools find a way to circumvent the pure lottery system) and urban magnet schools where entrance is by exam. In all cases when you compare kids of similar aptitude ranges upon entrance to the schools, and compare their performance at the end of their enrollment...there's no statistical difference.

Basically, all students learn at roughly the same rate, all the way from kindergarten to PHD programs. Some students however start out ahead for various reasons, and those students who are behind will (on average) never catch up. Hence you might as well pick a school for your kids based upon other reasons besides the idea that it can somehow "supercharge" your kid.

Since school performance is based upon the overall "quality" of the entering classes, but this isn't understood well by parents, this leads to all sorts of bad outcomes educationally. For example, classic middle-class flight from public school systems often starts because the number of poorer, often black/brown students increases in a district, which brings down the average scores. With average scores going down, parents highly focused on education begin looking elsewhere, which brings down average scores even more. Ultimately this creates a cycle which is very difficult to get out of, though some urban schools in highly gentrified areas have done it through getting a critical mass of middle-class parents to stick it out, which leads to the school having a reputation as "improving" - which then tends to build upon itself in a reverse manner to flight.

To be clear, this is not an argument in favor of sending your kids to any school. Speaking personally, while both of my kids attend public schools in the city, I opted for the magnet system (which is lottery based) for both of them, partially because of the educational choices given, along with exposure to people from all walks of life. I don't think you should, for example, have your kids attend a school which is openly dangerous, or put them in situations where they could be bullied. But ultimately we have been very happy with our choices. I'm glad we didn't spend tens of thousands on a private school which wouldn't provide any better adult outcomes, or move to a suburban neighborhood we would have hated for their sakes, only to have their lives essentially turn out the same.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2022, 3:12 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,163
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post

Basically, all students learn at roughly the same rate,
No. Some people are really smart. Most aren't.

Quote:
Some students however start out ahead for various reasons,
Yeah. They're smarter.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2022, 3:20 PM
Crawford Crawford is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,769
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
Yeah. They're smarter.
I'd imagine the vast majority of students who start out ahead are advantaged due to parental involvement.

My 5-yo kindergartener reads and does math at a 2nd grade level, but I doubt he's unusually smart. We've been tutoring him, almost every day, since he was 3. And reading to him, daily, since in utero. And were fortunate enough to put him in a STEAM-oriented preschool from the beginning.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2022, 3:30 PM
Crawford Crawford is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,769
Re. parental choice and urban public schooling, I generally agree the OP.

I don't know the Ed data, but I'd be surprised if teaching, and peer norms, had absolutely zero impact on learning. A crappy teacher or a classroom where discipline is taking up teaching time would seem to have some negative impact.

Part of the reason parents prefer "good" schools is a culture of higher expectations, extending beyond academics. There are social and extracurricular advantages in non-troubled schools. You're more likely to find a good tennis coach, or learn about that great Calc tutor. And there are no parental "hoops", as all the K-12 schools are pretty much fine.

I do see why urbanite parents sometimes end up sending their kids to Scarsdale, New Trier or wherever. In some ways it's just easier. You don't have to think about anything till college. Even if the outcomes are the same, it's peace of mind.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2022, 3:36 PM
eschaton eschaton is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,208
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
No. Some people are really smart. Most aren't.
Yeah, some people are smart, but generally speaking smart people learn at the same rate as dim people, it's just they start out with more, so they also learn more.

Like, if you have two students on a hypothetical standardized test. One starts the year with a 100, the other a 200. By the end of the year the first one will have scored a 110, the second a 220. The smarter student learned more in absolute terms, but in percentage terms the improvement is identical.

Again, if you look at average aptitude gained across colleges, this is how it works. The percent increase in overall aptitude at the lowest-ranked schools is the same as the highest-ranked schools. They learn at the same overall rate, but the smarter people start out with more, which allows them to learn more, but in percentage terms, it's the same.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2022, 3:44 PM
eschaton eschaton is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I'd imagine the vast majority of students who start out ahead are advantaged due to parental involvement.

My 5-yo kindergartener reads and does math at a 2nd grade level, but I doubt he's unusually smart. We've been tutoring him, almost every day, since he was 3. And reading to him, daily, since in utero. And were fortunate enough to put him in a STEAM-oriented preschool from the beginning.
There's...mixed evidence of this. Basically they attempt to study the outcomes of adopted children versus biological children to disentangle the genes vs. environment issue. The conclusion is environment matters a lot with small kids, but as children get older their natural inclinations take over. There's almost no correlation by HS, and no correlation at all between final educational attainment/adult earnings for parents and offspring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Re. parental choice and urban public schooling, I generally agree the OP.

I don't know the Ed data, but I'd be surprised if teaching, and peer norms, had absolutely zero impact on learning. A crappy teacher or a classroom where discipline is taking up teaching time would seem to have some negative impact.

Part of the reason parents prefer "good" schools is a culture of higher expectations, extending beyond academics. There are social and extracurricular advantages in non-troubled schools. You're more likely to find a good tennis coach, or learn about that great Calc tutor. And there are no parental "hoops", as all the K-12 schools are pretty much fine.

I do see why urbanite parents sometimes end up sending their kids to Scarsdale, New Trier or wherever. In some ways it's just easier. You don't have to think about anything till college. Even if the outcomes are the same, it's peace of mind.
Peer effects do exist, but they're relatively minor. I remember reading one landmark Texas study which looked into peer effects in education, and it concluded for every 10% blacker a public school is, white students did about 1%-2% less well on standardized tests. Oddly enough the negative effects for black students attending highly black schools were worse than for white students.

There's also been a lot of studies showing that when you take small numbers of inner-city kids and send them to suburban schools, it leads to big improvements in performance (if not total parity)...but if it becomes a sizable proportion of the student body, these kids are socially segregated within the school, and the achievement boost drops to close to zero.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2022, 3:59 PM
galleyfox galleyfox is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 1,050
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Re. parental choice and urban public schooling, I generally agree the OP.

I don't know the Ed data, but I'd be surprised if teaching, and peer norms, had absolutely zero impact on learning. A crappy teacher or a classroom where discipline is taking up teaching time would seem to have some negative impact.

Part of the reason parents prefer "good" schools is a culture of higher expectations, extending beyond academics. There are social and extracurricular advantages in non-troubled schools. You're more likely to find a good tennis coach, or learn about that great Calc tutor. And there are no parental "hoops", as all the K-12 schools are pretty much fine.

I do see why urbanite parents sometimes end up sending their kids to Scarsdale, New Trier or wherever. In some ways it's just easier. You don't have to think about anything till college. Even if the outcomes are the same, it's peace of mind.

I’d say teachers have about 30% impact on outcomes.

My Mother is a prison teacher to older inmates and high school juveniles to help them get their GEDs. A surprisingly high number of inmates are actually capable of passing the test after a few years under an attentive teacher and the strict discipline of prison.

Unless there’s obvious mental development problems and retardation, the degree of failure observed in their earlier lives was largely because of absent parents, negligent teachers and no behavioral standards.

This is a group that is objectively not smart, but over a prison term 40% can eventually meet GED education standards.

The problem with B schools and below, especially at the high school level is that teaching often consists of making students fill out a worksheet from the book while the teacher watches and a good portion of movie watching.

Children of any intelligence level struggle with self-teaching from the book, but it’s much more common in low performing schools.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2022, 4:13 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is online now
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 29,815
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post

The problem with this analysis is the priors of it are entirely, 100% backwards. Many studies have concluded that good schools do not produce good students. Instead, good students produce good schools.
yep.

the 5 highest rated (by test scores) public highschools in the state of IL are the 5 major magnet highschools of CPS.

if CPS is such an abject failure of a school system (as it is so often portrayed as being), how can that possibly be?

simple, those five schools get to vacuum up the very creme de la creme of students from a city of 2.7M people, and keep every single low and middle performing student out.

the result? extremely high test scores that not even the very best suburban highschools can match (they still have to take every in-district student regardless of performance level).


Better students. Better schools. Papa John's.
__________________
"Missing middle" housing can be a great middle ground for many middle class families.

Last edited by Steely Dan; Oct 27, 2022 at 2:49 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2022, 4:29 PM
dc_denizen's Avatar
dc_denizen dc_denizen is offline
Selfie-stick vendor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: New York Suburbs
Posts: 10,999
there was no way I was going to subject my own kids to NYC public schools, nor pay the absurd costs and questionable academics of private school tuition for 13 years.

My year of terror and abuse teaching at a NYC high school

https://nypost.com/2016/01/17/my-yea...c-high-school/
__________________
Joined the bus on the 33rd seat
By the doo-doo room with the reek replete
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #10  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2022, 4:46 PM
Crawford Crawford is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,769
Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
there was no way I was going to subject my own kids to NYC public schools, nor pay the absurd costs and questionable academics of private school tuition for 13 years.

My year of terror and abuse teaching at a NYC high school

https://nypost.com/2016/01/17/my-yea...c-high-school/
I'm sorry, but this is an especially dumb post.

The best public HS in NY State are basically all in NYC public schools. The biggest Ivy feeders, nationally, are NYC public schools.

The NY Post is garbage and has an agenda of relentlessly trashing public schooling, especially in liberal cities like NY and SF.

And there's zero logic to "I'm not sending a child to a district of 1.1 million children bc one teacher had a bad experience". That's beyond dumb.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2022, 5:17 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,163
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
They learn at the same overall rate, but the smarter people start out with more, which allows them to learn more, but in percentage terms, it's the same.
This is a strained effort to declare that all people are the same and that disparities are the fault of "the system" and we've identified the problems and experts know how to fix them and hey there's a levy on the November ballot and we need your support. A no vote means you hate kids!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2022, 5:20 PM
Northern Light Northern Light is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,227
Interesting subject.

Here in Toronto, public schools are broadly in good repute; and are well utilized by the middle and upper middle classes and even some of the very rich; though many of those do send their children to elite private schools.

We don't have quite as much disparity between high and low performing schools as may be seen in some U.S. communities; though that is not to suggest there isn't a disparity, because there is indeed one.

In Toronto, provided a school is not over capacity, you can live in any neighbourhood and send your child to a school in any other. There isn't the same adherence to school districts or the like often seen in the U.S.

That said, capacity issues can limit admissions from outside of one's neighbourhood.

Parent here do show concern for getting their children the best possible education though; and one way in which this manifests here is the long queue for getting one's kids into French Immersion. This is often a subtle way in which parents can place their children in a self-select program that is essentially thought of as gifted (though there are no academic entry requirements if you place your kids at the earliest opportunity)

***

As someone who myself went through public education (though also a few years in private school); and then went on to an elite university, I can say the differences are real, though not what most imagine.

Discipline was tighter in the private school, but academics not particularly more rigorous.

Where I found the biggest difference was in doing well in the public system, I ended up in some 'enriched' classes (what you might call AP in the U.S. or gifted); and that difference was material.

Class size dropped, the teaching was different, more collaborative, and generally featured more challenging material.

***

Crawford I think, made excellent points, that environment does influence outcome in some measure. Not merely by quality of teaching, or peer expectations, but in the form of class size, enrichment activities, how much teacher time is devoted to students who struggle and more.

These things are addressable within a framework of public education; but some places do so better than others; and some are challenged by where students are at academically when they arrive in Kindergarten.

****

Raising the bar involves addressing those issues that arise in low-income communities. Lower parental education level; less liklihood of high-speed internet at home, fewer books in the home, parents less able to help with homework, not only because of ability, but due to shift work, longer hours, two jobs etc.

One will never achieve total parity in the experiences that children from low-income families have available to them, with those from high-income families.

But the gap can be narrowed. People often fail to account for the leaning that may occur through a summer camp, whether that's an overnight camp in a rural/wild area; or whether that's an art camp or space camp or some other form of urban adventure for a child. Such experiences give them new words, new connections with other kids, new abilities etc which are then reflected when they return to school in September.

Likewise, access to travel, the simple act as a child of having passport or seeing a parents, of going to an airport, getting on a plane etc etc. provides a wealth learning opportunity even before one arrives at a destination, be that across the country or around the world.

Again, we're not going to be able to provide that opportunity to every child, but many smaller things can achieve similar benefits.

What if government waived fees for your first passport, made the process one through your local High School in Grade 9, and then every child had a 10-year passport? It doesn't make a low-income earner a globe-trotter, but it adds a valuable piece of ID, knowledge of the process for obtaining a passport, and does open some doors, particularly for those living close to an international land border.

***

One can also invest in catching parents up in areas where that is a challenge.

What about paying them to attend an orientation night with or for their kids? How about using that opportunity to pitch free return-to-school (for adults) / GED programs and having staff there to facilitate paperwork?

Moves like that can really help raise both a student's performance and that of a school.

****

In the U.S., however, I think, as with Cities, there need to be fewer local fiefdoms and some effort to level resources between schools, and indeed, provide extra to those schools facing the greatest challenges.
__________________
An environmentally conscientious, libertarian inclined, fiscally conservative, socialist.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2022, 5:39 PM
eschaton eschaton is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,208
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
This is a strained effort to declare that all people are the same and that disparities are the fault of "the system" and we've identified the problems and experts know how to fix them and hey there's a levy on the November ballot and we need your support. A no vote means you hate kids!
No, that's not what I'm saying at all.

I actually think perfect closure of historic achievement gaps is largely intractable - it can't be fixed by policy means within the educational system. I do think there are policy fixes which could make further progress (like lead remediation in historically black neighborhoods, better neonatal nutrition, etc.) but those are not what's talked about typically when we talk about boosting educational performance.

But...kids are learning more in absolute terms, despite the gap not completely closing. Like even though there's a black-white test score gap today, as was the case in 1970, both black and white students are doing considerably better! The "problem" is the educational innovations which helped bring up under-privileged children's aptitude were just as applicable in schools full of upper-middle class kids, meaning the averages rose for everyone.

Edit: Someone I have read for years who writes on education has jokingly pointed out if we were serious about closing achievement gaps, what we would do is purposefully sabotage the education of gifted students. Bringing down the performance of top-performers is way, way easier than bringing up the performance of those on the bottom. But of course instead we have the expectation that our educational system will somehow both bring up kids on the bottom and have kids at the top reach their fullest potential.

Last edited by eschaton; Oct 26, 2022 at 6:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2022, 6:22 PM
dc_denizen's Avatar
dc_denizen dc_denizen is offline
Selfie-stick vendor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: New York Suburbs
Posts: 10,999
indeed

Quote:
Nearly 90 percent of New York City public middle schools will continue to use a lottery system to admit students, school officials announced Wednesday, a sea change that could add more diversity to schools in a system marked by racial segregation.

The vast majority of the middle schools that had once used selective requirements will now drop them.

The previous mayor, Bill de Blasio, paused the selection of students based on grades or test scores during the pandemic. Last month, the schools chancellor, David C. Banks, ended the mandatory, citywide lottery, but allowed the local superintendents who manage the city’s 32 community school districts to decide whether to reinstitute a selection system based on student grades.

“It didn’t matter to me how the results came out,” Mr. Banks told reporters Wednesday. “What mattered to me was that the community voice was heard and was respected.”

Now, just under 60 of the city’s approximately 475 middle schools will use some form of selective admissions, either for all students or within specific programs. Nearly 200 middle schools used screens before the pandemic.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/26/n...selective.html
__________________
Joined the bus on the 33rd seat
By the doo-doo room with the reek replete
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2022, 6:46 PM
SIGSEGV's Avatar
SIGSEGV SIGSEGV is offline
He/his/him. >~<, QED!
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Loop, Chicago
Posts: 6,035
My daughter is 9 months old right now, but already we'll need to decide soon if she should go to the UChicago Lab school for preschool or not (if she goes for preschool, she can continue further much more easily than enrolling later). Since I work at UChicago, the tuition is the minimum of 6.4% of my AGI or 50% of the tuition (for me, 6.4% of AGI is significantly smaller...). But we're leaning towards not going through the Lab School. Basically, our impression is that the Lab school is a very competitive environment, which would be awful unless she's smart. But if she's smart, she can just go to Walter Payton or whatever. (We do expect her to be smart based on genetics, upbringing and her 95th percentile head size...but who knows!). We're certainly not considering moving to Wilmette...
__________________
And here the air that I breathe isn't dead.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #16  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2022, 6:54 PM
Crawford Crawford is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,769
Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
I think you're trying to communicate that the current NYC Schools Chief is an opponent of selective, test-based admissions. The opposite is true.

NYC, like every other big city district during the pandemic, shifted to lottery-based admissions, bc there were no standardized tests, or the tests weren't universally applied. You can't decide based on a non-existent test.

Banks actually reversed the previous administration's policies, and testing is now used for admissions at all levels. But he kept middle school district preferences, and for now, a majority are maintaining the (lottery and grades, rather than lottery, grades and testing) status quo. But elementary and high school admissions are basically back to where they were under Bloomberg (lottery, grades and testing).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2022, 7:09 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is online now
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 29,815
Quote:
Originally Posted by SIGSEGV View Post
My daughter is 9 months old right now, but already we'll need to decide soon if she should go to the UChicago Lab school for preschool or not (if she goes for preschool, she can continue further much more easily than enrolling later). Since I work at UChicago, the tuition is the minimum of 6.4% of my AGI or 50% of the tuition (for me, 6.4% of AGI is significantly smaller...). But we're leaning towards not going through the Lab School. Basically, our impression is that the Lab school is a very competitive environment, which would be awful unless she's smart. But if she's smart, she can just go to Walter Payton or whatever. (We do expect her to be smart based on genetics, upbringing and her 95th percentile head size...but who knows!). We're certainly not considering moving to Wilmette...

You should obviously do whatever you feel is best for your child and family, but one piece of unsolicited advice I'll offer is: don't discount daily school logistics in your calculation.

I can't think of of a whole lot of decisions that've made my life as a parent of two young children easier than kinda lucking our way into our forever home being only 1 block away from a good K-8 CPS neighborhood school.

School starts at 8:15 at my kids' school. They can literally walk out our front door at 8:12 and still make it to school on time.

It's FAR from the only thing to consider, but holy shit can it make figuring out child logistics a whole lot easier at times.
__________________
"Missing middle" housing can be a great middle ground for many middle class families.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #18  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2022, 7:23 PM
eschaton eschaton is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
You should obviously do whatever you feel is best for your child and family, but one piece of unsolicited advice I'll offer is: don't discount daily school logistics in your calculation.

I can't think of of a whole lot of decisions that've made my life as a parent of two young children easier than kinda lucking our way into our forever home being only 1 block away from a good K-8 CPS neighborhood school.

School starts at 8:15 at my kids' school. They can literally walk out our front door at 8:12 and still make it to school on time.

It's FAR from the only thing to consider, but holy shit can it make figuring out child logistics a whole lot easier at times.
My daughter's elementary school was only around a 13-minute drive from our house with no traffic, but it was in the exact wrong direction for either my wife's commute or my own (further from Downtown) which created logistical issues (particularly for my wife, because I typically handled my son at day care while she dropped off/picked up my daughter).

Now my daughter's middle school is a 5-minute drive from us (close enough she just walks home on her own) an my son's school is the same distance (sometimes I walk with him, though he prefers not to walk). Makes logistics much, much easier.

Last edited by eschaton; Oct 26, 2022 at 7:57 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2022, 7:28 PM
Crawford Crawford is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,769
Yeah, logistics are critical. Our son's school is 4 min. walking, door-to-door, at least for the next six years.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #20  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2022, 7:31 PM
Northern Light Northern Light is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
You should obviously do whatever you feel is best for your child and family, but one piece of unsolicited advice I'll offer is: don't discount daily school logistics in your calculation.

I can't think of of a whole lot of decisions that've made my life as a parent of two young children easier than kinda lucking our way into our forever home being only 1 block away from a good K-8 CPS neighborhood school.

School starts at 8:15 at my kids' school. They can literally walk out our front door at 8:12 and still make it to school on time.


It's FAR from the only thing to consider, but holy shit can it make figuring out child logistics a whole lot easier at times.
Wow that's an early start, at least to me. Toronto schools typically start at 8:50am.

When does your kids school let out?

Ours tend to be 3:10-3:30pm
__________________
An environmentally conscientious, libertarian inclined, fiscally conservative, socialist.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 1:00 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.