Canadian Maps and Graphics

[lio45]

Originally Posted by someone123

Google suggests that if you want to drive to Blanc Sablon, QC you should head to NB, then NS, then NL, then take the ferry. The road seems to end in some place called Kegaska.

That one road, yes, but it's not the only road.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Port...51.4264451!3e0

From Quebec you can drive to anywhere in Labrador without needing to cross water or get on a boat.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by someone123

Here's my old "what Quebec claims it's entitled to" map showing land and water claims vs. where most people in Quebec live. Maybe Quebec will separate and end up fighting a war with its uncomfortably close neighbour Denmark.

Those maps only seem unreasonable in a non-Canadian context. Most provinces get to "claim their norths". One could make very similar maps for Ontario, Manitoba and BC.

IMO, Labrador is just as foreign from a St. John's perspective as it is from a Southern Quebec one.

The real "issue" here (for the purposes of this discussion, I mean) is that this was decided by a biased party (the UK owned Newfoundland at the time) and never really (AFAIK) recognized since.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

If the Liberals want to stay relevant outside of Montréal, they will have to show a more nationalist view of their province, otherwise they will never win another election.

Stay relevant or become relevant again? They have already reached near irrelevancy with only 10% support from francophones in some polls, in a province where they make up 80-85% of voters.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by lio45

That one road, yes, but it's not the only road.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Port...51.4264451!3e0

From Quebec you can drive to anywhere in Labrador without needing to cross water or get on a boat.

29 hours via Labrador! Imagine how hazardous that trip is for most of the year.

Originally Posted by lio45

IMO, Labrador is just as foreign from a St. John's perspective as it is from a Southern Quebec one.

I'm not so convinced about this. There's a string of fishing village type places on the NL side and it's 20 km from similar looking fishing villages with names like "English Point" or "Mary's Harbour" on the mainland side. Historically, and in modern times (look at where the ferries go), this small distance over water would have been far less significant than many hundreds of km over subarctic land with limited/no roads.

I looked up demographics and Blanc-Sablon, despite the French sounding name, had 2x more people reporting English as a mother tongue than French.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Stay relevant or become relevant again? They have already reached near irrelevancy with only 10% support from francophones in some polls, in a province where they make up 80-85% of voters.

It wouldn't take much. They were reasonably electable outside Montreal back in the Charest era.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by someone123

29 hours via Labrador!

Sorry, were you under the impression that there existed ways to go to Blanc Sablon from Southern Quebec that did not make Homer's Odyssey look like a trip to the corner store?

How long would be the drive that you suggest? Including waiting for ferries and the slowness it takes to cross bodies of water on a ferry.

I'm pretty sure I can drive from Quebec to Florida AND back and you won't even be there yet.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by lio45

Sorry, were you under the impression that there existed ways to go to Blanc Sablon from Southern Quebec that did not make Homer's Odyssey look like a trip to the corner store?

Well it's 5 hours and 48 minutes from Corner Brook, 391 km, according to Google Maps. Or 2 hours from where the ferry starts on the NL side.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

It wouldn't take much. They were reasonably electable outside Montreal back in the Charest era.

Even in 2014 they did well under early days Couillard. But then people got the impression the PLQ betrayed their trust, and that the party started talking down to them.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by someone123

I'm not so convinced about this. There's a string of fishing village type places on the NL side and it's 20 km from similar looking fishing villages with names like "English Point" or "Mary's Harbour" on the mainland side. Historically, and in modern times (look at where the ferries go), this small distance over water would have been far less significant than many hundreds of km over subarctic land with limited/no roads.

I guess this view depends on what one's view of "Labrador" is.

To a Haligonian like you, maybe modern Labrador is places like English Point / Mary's Harbour.

To me, at first sight it's mostly mining towns like Labrador City, and hydro projects. Much more similar to, say, Abitibi, than to anywhere culturally Newfoundlandian. Railways connect that area from Quebec.

(Also, without looking it up, I'm pretty sure at some point the partition had Newfoundland own the coast and Quebec the interior. This would somewhat match both our arguments. )

[someone123]

Originally Posted by lio45

To me, at first sight it's mostly mining towns like Labrador City, and hydro projects. Much more similar to, say, Abitibi, than to anywhere culturally Newfoundlandian. Railways connect that area from Quebec.

If you're talking about the modern development on the Newfoundland side, it seems like it was done by Newfoundland with an understanding of what the modern borders are, right? Currently they're in the red with Muskrat Falls; they assumed the financial risk of that development. That project included undersea links for transmission via Newfoundland and NS. Did the road and rail links exist for these hydro projects long before they were built? Seems unlikely.

One aspect that seems odd is the lack of symmetry here. Quebec thinks its claims should extend over vast areas of wilderness adjacent to its populated areas, but Labrador's boundaries should only be the places where people live. Also for the Magdalen Islands, a tiny landmass with 12,000 people is given approximately equal weight to 4 adjacent provinces with much larger coastlines.

I don't feel strongly about it one way or the other but if we just took a step back and considered general principles of how borders should be drawn up it's hard to see how Quebec was the aggrieved party here that should for decades refuse to accept the borders that are in place. Rather it seems like Quebec basically always got its way and wants more.

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by esquire

It's like China with Taiwan

If virtually no one in Taiwan was in any shape or form Chinese.

Newfies should start claiming the northern shore of the St.Lawerence as many of them are factually newfie.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by LakeLocker

Newfies should start claiming the northern shore of the St.Lawerence as many of them are factually newfie.

Quebec is big on self-determination, right? Maybe these districts should be allowed to vote on what they want to be a part of be rather than being resource colonies.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by lio45

I guess this view depends on what one's view of "Labrador" is.

To a Haligonian like you, maybe modern Labrador is places like English Point / Mary's Harbour.

To me, at first sight it's mostly mining towns like Labrador City, and hydro projects. Much more similar to, say, Abitibi, than to anywhere culturally Newfoundlandian. Railways connect that area from Quebec.

(Also, without looking it up, I'm pretty sure at some point the partition had Newfoundland own the coast and Quebec the interior. This would somewhat match both our arguments. )

The Coast of Labrador has always been English, and always culturally part of Newfoundland.

Most of the border between Labrador and Quebec is based on watersheds, and is quite reasonable. The British commission which finalized the border dealt with only a relatively small part of the border along the southern boundary (where it forms a straight line). Most of central Labrador historically has always been part of Newfoundland (except on Province of Quebec maps).

Maybe there could be a swap. The original watershed boundary along the southern border of Labrador could be given back, but in return, Newfoundland would get the historically English speaking communities along the lower north shore of the Gulf of Saint Lawrence. Essentially swapping the white area in the map below, for the red area. What do you think?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by someone123

Quebec is big on self-determination, right? Maybe these districts should be allowed to vote on what they want to be a part of be rather than being resource colonies.

https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/labrador...%20of%20Quebec.

[LakeLocker]

Originally Posted by lio45

Those maps only seem unreasonable in a non-Canadian context. Most provinces get to "claim their norths". One could make very similar maps for Ontario, Manitoba and BC.

IMO, Labrador is just as foreign from a St. John's perspective as it is from a Southern Quebec one.

Eh wha? Labrador was the traditional fishing grounds of Newfoundland for centuries.

The grand banks were typically fished by New englanders and Europeans.

Labrador was always as newfie as newfie gets. Ignoring the bit where everyone has friends/relatives who've lived in Labrador.

A substantial portion of non Avalon Newfoundlanders live in Labrador or have lived in Labrador. Not to mention the Northern Peninsula being integrated with the Lab side of things.

It'd be like arguing that few Quebecois live in Saguenay.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Most of the border between Labrador and Quebec is based on watersheds, and is quite reasonable.

Happy Valley-Goose Bay has port access and a container terminal and has about 8,000 people, just under 200 km from the open ocean. From there it's a 45 minute drive to the Muskrat Falls site or 4h40 to Churchill Falls.

They don't have any direct flights to Quebec it seems.

[Acajack]

This discussion began with hypothesizing over the borders of a theoretical independent Quebec.

I think that all political grandstanding and strategizing aside, the most likely scenario (backed up by most legal opinions) is that Quebec would leave with its current borders.

Even if the Clarity Act says the concerns of indigenous peoples and minorities must be taken into account in the case of the secession of a province, it does not IIRC say that they are allowed to separate their regions from the seceding province.

Another thing of course is that the Constitution says the borders of a province cannot be changed without that province's consent.

I would expect a departing Quebec would be OK - actually quite satisfied - with leaving with its current territory, and in those conditions not make any play for Labrador based on its century-old opposition to the British Privy Council's decision of 1927 on the matter. (Where the UK was both judge and party, BTW.)

Now if Quebec were to make a play for Labrador (whether in the context of secession or not) my guess it would be a fairly flimsy case at this point given that as they say, possession is nine tenths of the law. Most of the infrastructure has been put in there by Newfoundland and the population is much more culturally similar to Newfoundland than it is to Quebec.

I admit to having no idea if the population of Labrador already looked like that prior to 1927 (or was it mostly indigenous people or francophones, or both?) but regardless today it's much closer to Newfoundland. That also counts for something.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by lio45

https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/labrador...%20of%20Quebec.

Sure. I don't really have a horse in this race. Not arguing that any particular area should be a part of NL or Quebec.

But I do think it's silly that Quebec produces maps with Labrador included.

Maybe Nova Scotia should start making maps of the province that extend to the Penobscot River in Maine. The British gave all that away without asking.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This discussion began with hypothesizing over the borders of a theoretical independent Quebec.

It did? I'm pretty sure it began with someone pointing out that images of Quebec occasionally include Labrador. (Even on our driver's licenses ...)

I think that all political grandstanding and strategizing aside, the most likely scenario (backed up by most legal opinions) is that Quebec would leave with its current borders.

Of course.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by someone123

Sure. I don't really have a horse in this race. Not arguing that any particular area should be a part of NL or Quebec.

But I do think it's silly that Quebec produces maps with Labrador included.

Maybe Nova Scotia should start making maps of the province that extend to the Penobscot River in Maine. The British gave all that away without asking.

Don't forget that PEI used to be part of NS too.