HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Mountain West


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #15281  
Old Posted May 1, 2024, 11:51 AM
twalm twalm is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 42
This article might provide some laughs for people here:

https://www.cpr.org/2024/04/30/new-a...nsit-stations/
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15282  
Old Posted May 1, 2024, 7:01 PM
Cirrus's Avatar
Cirrus Cirrus is offline
cities|transit|croissants
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 18,405
OK I read the story and whatever, the usual NIMBY griping, but I pulled up the location on Google Maps to get a look at that fountain and I need some answers. Is this really the breast park they could come up with? Sorry I mean best.

__________________
writing | twitter | flickr | instagram | ssp photo threads
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15283  
Old Posted May 1, 2024, 7:52 PM
laniroj laniroj is offline
[sub]urbanite
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirrus View Post
OK I read the story and whatever, the usual NIMBY griping, but I pulled up the location on Google Maps to get a look at that fountain and I need some answers. Is this really the breast park they could come up with? Sorry I mean best.

See the little road that wraps around Ariola park going north under Yosemite Street? I would venture to guess this park exists because the fire department REQUIRED that access road, thereby cutting off the land breast and rendering it useless except to meet an open spaces or parks requirement from the City's charter...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15284  
Old Posted May 1, 2024, 7:56 PM
laniroj laniroj is offline
[sub]urbanite
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by twalm View Post
This article might provide some laughs for people here:

https://www.cpr.org/2024/04/30/new-a...nsit-stations/
Oh the nerve...of letting your fellow human have a place to live!!! As far as I'm concerned, this crap these suburbs are pulling is the same thing as redlining was 100 years ago. Greenwood Village approved a giant EXPENSIVE condo project they just don't want, in their words, poor apartment squatters enjoying what is otherwise a good place (aside from the people who think this way which live there).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15285  
Old Posted May 1, 2024, 8:25 PM
Cirrus's Avatar
Cirrus Cirrus is offline
cities|transit|croissants
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 18,405
Quote:
Originally Posted by laniroj View Post
useless except to meet an open spaces or parks requirement from the City
I'm sure you're right. Tits just that I'm amused by the execution.
__________________
writing | twitter | flickr | instagram | ssp photo threads
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15286  
Old Posted May 1, 2024, 9:11 PM
mishko27 mishko27 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by twalm View Post
This article might provide some laughs for people here:

https://www.cpr.org/2024/04/30/new-a...nsit-stations/
I'm not a resident of Greenwood Village, my house is off of Caley and Boston, so very much bordering Greenwood Village from multiple sides. It's mere 8 minute walk from Arapahoe Station, part of the reason why we bought the home, and I am so disappointed at the lack of development around the station.

And it's not only about the open land, but also about the 3 storey 1980s office building that sit almost completely vacant. There is so much room west of Yosemite for a Belleview Station style development and I would wholeheartedly support it. It would be fantastic to live next to a more dense, walkable urban core in the suburbs. And the light rail corridor is begging for that.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15287  
Old Posted May 1, 2024, 9:25 PM
twalm twalm is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by mishko27 View Post
I'm not a resident of Greenwood Village, my house is off of Caley and Boston, so very much bordering Greenwood Village from multiple sides. It's mere 8 minute walk from Arapahoe Station, part of the reason why we bought the home, and I am so disappointed at the lack of development around the station.

And it's not only about the open land, but also about the 3 storey 1980s office building that sit almost completely vacant. There is so much room west of Yosemite for a Belleview Station style development and I would wholeheartedly support it. It would be fantastic to live next to a more dense, walkable urban core in the suburbs. And the light rail corridor is begging for that.
Fun fact: https://www.denverpost.com/2017/06/0...plan-defeated/
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15288  
Old Posted May 2, 2024, 2:12 PM
laniroj laniroj is offline
[sub]urbanite
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by mishko27 View Post
I'm not a resident of Greenwood Village, my house is off of Caley and Boston, so very much bordering Greenwood Village from multiple sides. It's mere 8 minute walk from Arapahoe Station, part of the reason why we bought the home, and I am so disappointed at the lack of development around the station.

And it's not only about the open land, but also about the 3 storey 1980s office building that sit almost completely vacant. There is so much room west of Yosemite for a Belleview Station style development and I would wholeheartedly support it. It would be fantastic to live next to a more dense, walkable urban core in the suburbs. And the light rail corridor is begging for that.
I'd be supportive of closing light rail stations in communities which prevent ANY type of dense development along rail lines. We spent billions getting these communities light rail - and yes they wanted it. They have no claim to - WE DONT HAVE THE INFRASTRUCTURE. That's absolute hogwash. They are indebted to all of the people who aren't on rail lines and if they don't want to develop then let's cut them out of the system - this is one of my more extreme positions.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15289  
Old Posted May 2, 2024, 3:17 PM
twalm twalm is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Posts: 42
With Belleview Station going in just to the North of GV and The District envisioned/starting just to the South, there may well be a point in the future where GV realizes their aging office parks with huge parking lots don't generate as much tax revenue as they'd like.

This is the type of development GV thinks is appropriate around a light rail station. The building in the bottom right has been abandoned for years.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15290  
Old Posted May 2, 2024, 7:47 PM
bobg bobg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 470
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirrus View Post
OK I read the story and whatever, the usual NIMBY griping, but I pulled up the location on Google Maps to get a look at that fountain and I need some answers. Is this really the breast park they could come up with?
I'm pretty sure that's not a park and someone is just screwing with Google maps. Denverites tend to do that and Greenwood Village doesn't have that park listed.

The narrow rocky strip between civic center station and Colfax was shown as a park called "wu-tang clan commemorative gravel pit" for about a year with several comedic reviews before someone tipped off Google that it wasn't really a place. That's a pretty prominent location for that to last so long, so I imagine something less obvious (a misspelling of a Latin word), in a less prominent location, would work for a bit longer.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15291  
Old Posted May 3, 2024, 3:51 PM
gopokes21 gopokes21 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobg View Post
I'm pretty sure that's not a park and someone is just screwing with Google maps. Denverites tend to do that and Greenwood Village doesn't have that park listed.

The narrow rocky strip between civic center station and Colfax was shown as a park called "wu-tang clan commemorative gravel pit" for about a year with several comedic reviews before someone tipped off Google that it wasn't really a place. That's a pretty prominent location for that to last so long, so I imagine something less obvious (a misspelling of a Latin word), in a less prominent location, would work for a bit longer.
That gravel pit makes me angry every time I drive by. Could have been the National Medal of Honor Museum if RTD wasn't utterly incompetent. I hope Denver voters keep receipts for some of these massive fails we've experienced and stop promoting these clowns to bigger political roles.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15292  
Old Posted May 4, 2024, 5:35 PM
bobg bobg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 470
Quote:
Originally Posted by gopokes21 View Post
That gravel pit makes me angry every time I drive by. Could have been the National Medal of Honor Museum if RTD wasn't utterly incompetent. I hope Denver voters keep receipts for some of these massive fails we've experienced and stop promoting these clowns to bigger political roles.
I think RTD gets way too much grief for things that are outside of what should be it's core competencies. RTD covers a land area larger than 2 states and a population larger than 18 states. It's supposed to be a transit agency not an economic development agency that pays for leases for downtown attractions (nor a homeless shelter, car security firm, addiction intervention clinic, etc). The more scope creep the more they fail because they don't have the resources to do more than transit in such a large area.

That said RTD does not get enough grief for things they do control. This has been the norm for about five years at the light rail stop closest to me (taken today):




When it comes to that civic center parcel if they can't implement some transit related/adjacent purpose for that land they need to partner with someone that will at least put it to use (or just make it look better) in the interim, and one that covers the lease. It's exceptionally underutilized. I saw some plans awhile ago during civic center renovation, but that was seven years ago and haven't seen any updates.

Last edited by bobg; May 4, 2024 at 6:23 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15293  
Old Posted May 5, 2024, 7:57 PM
mhays mhays is offline
Never Dell
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 19,831
A transit agency should be very good at disposing of its excess land. This requires planning to understand their own future needs, but at scale it should be revenue-positive.

They might be hampered by rules from above. Ex: Sound Transit is required to sell its excess land for more than it was purchased for. For the initial rail line, they bought at an expensive time and finished in 2009 when values had cratered. So they sat on properties for several years, and still sit on some of them that are smaller and harder to develop. (Unless you want to build a few houses on 15' of width like here!)
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15294  
Old Posted May 7, 2024, 3:50 AM
rds70 rds70 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 2,790
Block 176 now has a name and a website: Upton Residences

https://www.uptonresidences.com/
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15295  
Old Posted May 7, 2024, 8:03 PM
Cirrus's Avatar
Cirrus Cirrus is offline
cities|transit|croissants
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 18,405
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhays View Post
(Unless you want to build a few houses on 15' of width like here!)
Legalize it and people'll be happy to, and they'll sell.
__________________
writing | twitter | flickr | instagram | ssp photo threads
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15296  
Old Posted May 8, 2024, 1:42 AM
gopokes21 gopokes21 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhays View Post
A transit agency should be very good at disposing of its excess land. This requires planning to understand their own future needs, but at scale it should be revenue-positive.

They might be hampered by rules from above. Ex: Sound Transit is required to sell its excess land for more than it was purchased for. For the initial rail line, they bought at an expensive time and finished in 2009 when values had cratered. So they sat on properties for several years, and still sit on some of them that are smaller and harder to develop. (Unless you want to build a few houses on 15' of width like here!)
RTD's biggest problem is they think their land assets are worth infinitely more than they really are. Based on their mission, and mission alignment with the City of Denver, they want affordability in any housing component - that immediately restricts the valuation of their land. Going through their RFP and procurement processes further reduces the value of their land.

Two specific examples:

1. The City negotiated an excellent deal for them on the gravel pit on Colfax, which was to become the National Medal of Honor Museum. I think it was a 50 or 60 year land lease that would pay them like $75,000 a year. Fantastic use for an awkward site right on Civic Center Park! The National Medal of Honor organization was poised to select Denver. Then RTD's board scuttled the deal with unbelievably embarrassing comments. Every single RTD director/commissioner involved in that meeting should be barred from seeking further public offices based on comments like:
- "The city is supposed to be an amazing partner for us, why don't they give us even more money for the site?"
- "Why a museum, why not food trucks or something cute?"
- "And how many National Medal of Honor awardees are there really, why do they need a museum?"

Yes all of that really happened, and the worst comments were from Kate Williams who represented District A, which is Capitol Hill. National Medal of Honor did not happen in Denver, they went to Arlington, TX instead, and the gravel pit remains better than ever - by which I mean chaotic police scene every time I pass it.

2. RTD had an RFP for the 38th and Blake park and ride lot two years ago. How could they possibly bungle TOD on such a great site? Easy - someone grossly overpaid for the Pepsi facility across the street, and RTD wanted the same deal or even better for their site. The minimum offer for the site was $40 million for around 1 acre! Buzz Geller isn't even that high. On top of that, the proposals had to be for affordable housing. Lastly, their RFP coincided with the fastest Federal Reserve prime rate rising cycle in American history, further eroding the value the market would bear for the site.

RTD does a lot of things right. They have really good staff leadership around this issue, and they are right to prioritize affordable housing. However, they have bottom of the barrel political leadership, their Exec Director is a nightmare (hired by the Board to bring Oakland, CA problems here) and they are collectively expecting land disposition deals to be the silver bullet they need to plug their operating budget.

Until RTD adopts a policy of simply requiring fair market value, taking into account all of their restrictions and baggage, nothing is going to happen. On the bright side, really amazing growth is happening on privately-held sites all around their station nodes. It's just ironic that the traffic generated by TOD a block over will have to walk through RTD's crappy parking lots, instead of appropriately designed transitscapes or otherwise appropriate urban infill.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15297  
Old Posted May 8, 2024, 3:40 AM
wong21fr's Avatar
wong21fr wong21fr is offline
Reluctant Hobbesian
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Denver
Posts: 13,172
Quote:
Originally Posted by gopokes21 View Post
Two specific examples:

1. The City negotiated an excellent deal for them on the gravel pit on Colfax, which was to become the National Medal of Honor Museum. I think it was a 50 or 60 year land lease that would pay them like $75,000 a year. Fantastic use for an awkward site right on Civic Center Park! The National Medal of Honor organization was poised to select Denver. Then RTD's board scuttled the deal with unbelievably embarrassing comments. Every single RTD director/commissioner involved in that meeting should be barred from seeking further public offices based on comments like:
- "The city is supposed to be an amazing partner for us, why don't they give us even more money for the site?"
- "Why a museum, why not food trucks or something cute?"
- "And how many National Medal of Honor awardees are there really, why do they need a museum?"

Yes all of that really happened, and the worst comments were from Kate Williams who represented District A, which is Capitol Hill. National Medal of Honor did not happen in Denver, they went to Arlington, TX instead, and the gravel pit remains better than ever - by which I mean chaotic police scene every time I pass it.
You know that if the museum was for migrants, the Gang of 19, or the Palestinian protestors the board would have bent over backward. I always felt it was the politics of glorifying the military that got in the way of the MoH Museum for RTD, it was just thinly veiled.

I think the worst offender for land disposition by RTD has got to be the one at 2907 Welton Street. RTD identified the plot prior to 2010 as being ideal for development and it's going to have taken at least 15(!) years before anything breaks ground.
__________________
"You don't strike, you just go to work everyday and do your job real half-ass. That's the American way!" -Homer Simpson

All of us who are concerned for peace and triumph of reason and justice must be keenly aware how small an influence reason and honest good will exert upon events in the political field. ~Albert Einstein

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15298  
Old Posted May 8, 2024, 3:28 PM
mhays mhays is offline
Never Dell
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 19,831
Yeah, $40m for an acre is absurd for affordable housing. Assuming 200 units that's $200,000/unit just for the land, not including interest and site prep!

I'm looking at recent Sound Transit TOD deals. In recent years they're no longer encumbered by the old state-mandated rules, and have prioritized affordable housing. I'm seeing deals at $9/sf in SeaTac (near Sea-Tac) and $14/sf in the U District.

As for the 15' strip of land, I'd love to see sideways townhouses. I don't know whether Sound Transit, land use code, or development economics are the issue(s). It's a poor area on a major street no station. There's a new duplex on a 25'-wide strip of ST land across the street however.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15299  
Old Posted May 8, 2024, 4:45 PM
gopokes21 gopokes21 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by wong21fr View Post
You know that if the museum was for migrants, the Gang of 19, or the Palestinian protestors the board would have bent over backward. I always felt it was the politics of glorifying the military that got in the way of the MoH Museum for RTD, it was just thinly veiled.

I think the worst offender for land disposition by RTD has got to be the one at 2907 Welton Street. RTD identified the plot prior to 2010 as being ideal for development and it's going to have taken at least 15(!) years before anything breaks ground.
I just have to say I somewhat disagree with this post, even though you're agreeing with one of my points. I strongly believe that refugees, peaceful protesters, and American veterans (our team) are all worthy of museums and respect. Anytime you can have the national museum of something, especially a group of people, on an otherwise difficult site to redevelop - that's a huge win.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15300  
Old Posted May 8, 2024, 4:47 PM
gopokes21 gopokes21 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhays View Post
Yeah, $40m for an acre is absurd for affordable housing. Assuming 200 units that's $200,000/unit just for the land, not including interest and site prep!

I'm looking at recent Sound Transit TOD deals. In recent years they're no longer encumbered by the old state-mandated rules, and have prioritized affordable housing. I'm seeing deals at $9/sf in SeaTac (near Sea-Tac) and $14/sf in the U District.

As for the 15' strip of land, I'd love to see sideways townhouses. I don't know whether Sound Transit, land use code, or development economics are the issue(s). It's a poor area on a major street no station. There's a new duplex on a 25'-wide strip of ST land across the street however.
Affordable housing needs to keep land cost to around $20,000 per unit, in order to be viable.

The Burrell in RiNo is probably the ideal infill example for shallow irregular lots.

Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Mountain West
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:41 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.