Winnipeg Retail

[esquire]

Originally Posted by CoryB

The now withdrawn Starlight plan for Portage Place was to essentially end retail as it has been in the mall. That likely lead to letting leases go month to month or completely cancelling them. Add in the extended effects of the pandemic and the overall retail downtown and it is easy to see why vacancy at Portage Place is climbing up.

In person retail was facing challenges even before the pandemic, and especially in downtown Winnipeg. But I wonder what the current owner will do with all of that space?

[WinCitySparky]

Originally Posted by esquire

In person retail was facing challenges even before the pandemic, and especially in downtown Winnipeg. But I wonder what the current owner will do with all of that space?

Who IS the current owner? FNP still?

[OTA in Winnipeg]

FNP only owns the parking garage I believe.

[Wpg_Guy]

Originally Posted by WinCitySparky

Who IS the current owner? FNP still?

Peterson Group owns the mall, FNP owns the land.

[WinCitySparky]

Originally Posted by Wpg_Guy

Peterson Group owns the mall, FNP owns the land.

Thank you

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by esquire

In person retail was facing challenges even before the pandemic, and especially in downtown Winnipeg. But I wonder what the current owner will do with all of that space?

This is more spot on that you realize. Brick and mortar retail and even more so large chain brick and mortar retail has been heavily under stress for a decade or more. Winnipeg always seems to lag behind other jurisdictions though so I am not surprised it is slower to show up here.

It always amazes me how people think that the next big development will bring retail to downtown Winnipeg.

[optimusREIM]

Depends what you’re picturing as retail, I can perfectly well see a world in which retail is a prominent part of downtown and in which it makes business sense too.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

Depends what you’re picturing as retail, I can perfectly well see a world in which retail is a prominent part of downtown and in which it makes business sense too.

Really? Downtown retail stopped expanding in any meaningful sense around the time that The Bay went up (Portage Place and the indoor malls were just shuffling the same deck around). I'm not sure exactly when it peaked, probably sometime right after WWII before suburban expansion picked up in earnest, but it's been on a slow and steady decline ever since.

I'm not sure what you are seeing that will change this trend anytime soon. I mean, maybe we'll see a slight improvement so a few of the many vacant spots will get filled, but you will never in our lifetimes see downtown retail return to the level that it was in terms of square footage back in 1996.

[borkborkbork]

What's interesting to me is that this is a city of 750k+, and there's no continuous retail high street.

If you want to go and window shop, browse, walk along a street with shops and restaurants and cafes... what street do you go to?

Osborne has a couple blocks. The Exchange has smatterings of retail spread across a wide area. Downtown (Portage etc) has a lot of office-plaza type retail, but no real concentrated strip of destination shops. There are shops here and there or even a block or two in Wolseley and West B. Academy has a bunch but they're really spread out and they're mostly strip malls.

There's no walkable retail neighbourhood other than Osborne, and in its current shape that's a pretty sad one. The only real concentrated retail destinations here are suburban malls.

[GreyGarden]

It’s so unfortunate and I’m not sure how we fix that. The streets that do have the built form (old, cheaper, continuous storefronts) to be commercial streets are all in pretty undesirable, lower income areas. It’s not like Sherbrook, or Broadway, or Osborne have a whole bunch of shuttered storefronts, the storefronts aren’t even there.

[zalf]

Originally Posted by GreyGarden

It’s so unfortunate and I’m not sure how we fix that. The streets that do have the built form (old, cheaper, continuous storefronts) to be commercial streets are all in pretty undesirable, lower income areas. It’s not like Sherbrook, or Broadway, or Osborne have a whole bunch of shuttered storefronts, the storefronts aren’t even there.

I have heard some discussion about changing to form-based zoning in the City. Rollins, at least, has mentioned it a couple times during council meetings as a goal of hers. That would certainly be a lever the City could use to reinforce some of the high streets.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by borkborkbork

What's interesting to me is that this is a city of 750k+, and there's no continuous retail high street.

If you want to go and window shop, browse, walk along a street with shops and restaurants and cafes... what street do you go to?

Osborne has a couple blocks. The Exchange has smatterings of retail spread across a wide area. Downtown (Portage etc) has a lot of office-plaza type retail, but no real concentrated strip of destination shops. There are shops here and there or even a block or two in Wolseley and West B. Academy has a bunch but they're really spread out and they're mostly strip malls.

There's no walkable retail neighbourhood other than Osborne, and in its current shape that's a pretty sad one. The only real concentrated retail destinations here are suburban malls.

The fact that there isn't a reasonably nice non-mall commercial strip to wander with a few nice shops, restaurants, etc. is one of Winnipeg's major shortcomings. All of the walkable urban commercial areas tend to be small and isolated. For a while it looked like Osborne might continue to evolve in that direction, but it has been backsliding for the last 15 years.

[thurmas]

Originally Posted by esquire

The fact that there isn't a reasonably nice non-mall commercial strip to wander with a few nice shops, restaurants, etc. is one of Winnipeg's major shortcomings. All of the walkable urban commercial areas tend to be small and isolated. For a while it looked like Osborne might continue to evolve in that direction, but it has been backsliding for the last 15 years.

I thought something would have sprouted up around the arena when the Jets came back similar to all the restaurants and cafes in downtown Montreal but nothing came out at all

[esquire]

Originally Posted by thurmas

I thought something would have sprouted up around the arena when the Jets came back similar to all the restaurants and cafes in downtown Montreal but nothing came out at all

Portage is absolutely dead for retail. I would imagine that MEC will depart sometime soon at which point major retail will be totally gone, other than dollar stores.

However, I would have expected more in either the Exchange or along Broadway. Broadway in particular has a lot of the ingredients to evolve into a decent commercial strip, but that hasn't happened.

[WildCake]

Originally Posted by thurmas

I thought something would have sprouted up around the arena when the Jets came back similar to all the restaurants and cafes in downtown Montreal but nothing came out at all

Not enough people live downtown or around the Canada Life Centre unlike DT Montreal. The Jets have 42 home games, so 11% of the year, and that's only for ~3h of the evenings. Add the Moose with like 1/3 to 1/5 of the Jets crowds and the odd concerts and it isn't much to work with for a business. Adding to that, a lot of people try to bolt out of downtown before the games are even done, even when they're winning, just to avoid traffic.

Most business models need way more people, that daily traffic to keep things humming along. Yes the restaurants and bars can have their cash cows on game days, but things can't be a complete graveyard outside of that.

[GreyGarden]

I agree Wildcake, the thing primarily standing in the way of Winnipeg having commercial storefronts is a lack of a concentration of people with disposable income. But I think my above post is interesting, I think there is a lack of physical small storefronts strung together in the West Broadway and Osborne area.

I’ve always thought that if our urban “revitalization” had been more directed to one area we may have had more success. I feel like urban minded people with income have dispersed across the exchange, Osborne, West Broadway and downtown a bit. As a result, none of the listed neighbourhoods have the mass to attract a decent number of businesses.

[rivercity]

It’s because all of the smatterings of walkable storefronts are on noisy car sewers (stroads). Both OV and south osborne, provencher, princess, academy. They aren’t pleasant. All you hear are vehicles, smell exhaust and have barely passable sidewalks for walking let alone including amenities on. I’m surprised that one sad tree full of garbage bags on Osborne is still alive. This city has downright depressed me as of late.

[esquire]

^ Agreed, rivercity.

The Exchange District seems like the kind of area that could have spawned such a shopping district, but it never really seemed to gain much traction in that direction despite showing some promise earlier. It's still filled mostly with small low-budget startups that seldom last all that long.

Corydon also had potential too, but it never really seemed to hit the next level.

Selkirk had a modest, working class high street vibe but that died off by the 90s.

Beyond that, nearly everything else is very stroady which really repels that type of activity.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by esquire

Really? Downtown retail stopped expanding in any meaningful sense around the time that The Bay went up (Portage Place and the indoor malls were just shuffling the same deck around). I'm not sure exactly when it peaked, probably sometime right after WWII before suburban expansion picked up in earnest, but it's been on a slow and steady decline ever since.

I'm not sure what you are seeing that will change this trend anytime soon. I mean, maybe we'll see a slight improvement so a few of the many vacant spots will get filled, but you will never in our lifetimes see downtown retail return to the level that it was in terms of square footage back in 1996.

My thoughts are that despite what everyone claims, I Winnipeg is not magically different from every other city in the world. We are behind in many respects due to poor planning and management, but not that different. Plenty of cities have thriving downtown retail. There are some steps that need to happen for that to be possible and I don’t see it happening anytime soon, but with the right policy, it could be encouraged and fostered and perhaps things would return in a sense.

To be clear I don’t mean giant department stores, although I’d never say never. I think there’s lots of people who’d be happy to shop in real stores depending on what the goods are.

Retail isn’t dead in downtown solely because of market forces, it’s dead because we suck at policy, and have the misguided notion that when the chips are down the thing that will save us is a mega project.

[Biff]

I had a recent conversation with Colliers here in Winnipeg and was told that contrary to popular belief - retail is doing very well in Winnipeg. The caveat is that is not the case downtown. Vacancy outside of downtown is very low.