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  #51101  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2022, 7:47 PM
Via Chicago Via Chicago is offline
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not all manufacturing is created equal. a small machine or print shop is going to have in no way the same environmental toll that a massive one million sq ft distribution warehouse that attracts hundreds/thousands of semis a day is going to have on a community

and yes, the north side did have a fairly toxic past over the 20th century, but it has shed the vast majority of that onto the s/w sides in recent history, and what little remains will likely not remain much longer. meanwhile the SW side is expected to just grin and bear it and be thankful for all the trash the north side dosent want, while they get nice new riverfront parks in its place

Last edited by Via Chicago; Aug 16, 2022 at 8:04 PM.
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  #51102  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2022, 8:18 PM
west-town-brad west-town-brad is offline
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Originally Posted by Via Chicago View Post
not all manufacturing is created equal. a small machine or print shop is going to have in no way the same environmental toll that a massive one million sq ft distribution warehouse that attracts hundreds/thousands of semis a day is going to have on a community

and yes, the north side did have a fairly toxic past over the 20th century, but it has shed the vast majority of that onto the s/w sides in recent history, and what little remains will likely not remain much longer. meanwhile the SW side is expected to just grin and bear it and be thankful for all the trash the north side dosent want, while they get nice new riverfront parks in its place
I'm confused if we are talking about warehouses or manufacturing?
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  #51103  
Old Posted Aug 16, 2022, 8:29 PM
Via Chicago Via Chicago is offline
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i mean, im talking about distribution warehouses since thats pretty much all thats being built in this area and likely what will be built. other guy mentioned manufacturing as a point of comparison.

at the end of the day though its the totality of everything (including community vulnerability, existing presence of pollution and corresponding sources, access or lack thereof to environmental amenities that other areas take for granted, history of unremeditated environmental injustices, etc) that creates a burden. its not just one thing. if we had electrified semi fleets this might not be as big a deal from an air quality standpoint, although it would probably still be bad from a traffic and quality of life standpoint.
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  #51104  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2022, 2:24 PM
west-town-brad west-town-brad is offline
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i mean, im talking about distribution warehouses since thats pretty much all thats being built in this area and likely what will be built. other guy mentioned manufacturing as a point of comparison.

at the end of the day though its the totality of everything (including community vulnerability, existing presence of pollution and corresponding sources, access or lack thereof to environmental amenities that other areas take for granted, history of unremeditated environmental injustices, etc) that creates a burden. its not just one thing. if we had electrified semi fleets this might not be as big a deal from an air quality standpoint, although it would probably still be bad from a traffic and quality of life standpoint.
I agree it would suck to live next to one of these warehouses. Also a factory or manufacturing would suck as well. I live 3 houses from Western Ave so I can imagine the 24-hour noise.

I don't know however how this can be an issue now, when these parcels have been zoned for industrial uses for 100+ years. The same reason I don't protest the fact that Western Ave is there. Part of the reason the neighborhoods are affordable to live in today is the fact that they are less desirable given the proximity to these industrial uses.

Even if we somehow forced the industrial parcels to become parks or residential or other low impact use the discussion would inevitably turn into one of injustice and gentrification and pushing out poor people because the area would now be much more desirable.
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  #51105  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2022, 3:43 PM
galleyfox galleyfox is online now
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Originally Posted by west-town-brad View Post
Part of the reason the neighborhoods are affordable to live in today is the fact that they are less desirable given the proximity to these industrial uses.

Even if we somehow forced the industrial parcels to become parks or residential or other low impact use the discussion would inevitably turn into one of injustice and gentrification and pushing out poor people because the area would now be much more desirable.
I’m thinking that there is a ton of even more affordable neighborhoods on the South and West sides that have far less pollution.

Why did these historically industrial neighborhoods in particular remain stable enough to be the first choice of immigrants?

From where I’m sitting, the industrial jobs clearly played a stabilizing role even if some of the subsequent generations stayed nearby for family reasons.

Also, we tend to highly overestimate commuting into Cook County from the Collar Counties. I’m very confident that most of the on-site workers live nearby or at least in the near West suburbs like Cicero and Berwyn.

And of course warehouses don’t often go to the North side. College grads aren’t exactly applying for those positions, and it’s a tremendous commute for the likely employees who live much further South and West.
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  #51106  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2022, 4:12 PM
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The explanation for why those neighborhoods remained "stable" is that Black and Latino neighborhoods have vastly different origin stories.

The influx of Black people into formerly white neighborhoods led to massive disinvestment in the 60s through shady practices like blockbusting and panic peddling. Other practices like contract buying just destroyed any wealth the Black community had managed to build up from good-paying industrial jobs. Then the jobs went away and the wealth could not be replenished, leaving Black neighborhoods in a state of permanent poverty. Shady landlords engaged in arson for the insurance money, and shocks like the MLK riots left permanent scars because these neighborhoods had no capital to rebuild themselves.

The arrival of Latinos in the 80s and 90s was more gradual and intentional. Managed integration, you could call it. In Little Village, there were deliberate efforts by community groups and banks to transition the neighborhood to a Mexican one slowly as the old Czechs and Poles died out or moved to the burbs. This helped both the new arrivals to have a stable community, and helped the old white ethnics be able to sell their properties for a fair price. New laws like the Fair Housing Act played a role too in limiting the abuses of the 50s/60s real estate market.
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  #51107  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2022, 4:35 PM
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Originally Posted by west-town-brad View Post
Even if we somehow forced the industrial parcels to become parks or residential or other low impact use the discussion would inevitably turn into one of injustice and gentrification and pushing out poor people because the area would now be much more desirable.
i dont know if this is entirely fair. there probably are some people who think that way, although even the die hard activists generally advocate for more community based amenities like parks/green space...they just also typically want community benefit agreements tied into them.

i think a perfect example is the development of La Villita Park. that was a toxic superfund site. the community for years fought to get it cleaned up and turned into a park. their thoughts easily could have been dismissed and something like a distro warehouse could have gone there. someone could easily say "why build a park in a space thats directly adjacent to a massive jail complex? this isnt an ideal spot and it could be used for other uses". today, thats a lively park as it was originally envisioned that is primarily used by locals, and it has not led to gentrification. people here are yearning for more green space. theyre not opposed to it in the least as far as ive seen. but larger economic development forces typically steamroll those ambitions. and thats the point: folks here dont have significant political capital. something like the Hilco demolition never would have happened on the north side. its a community thats been taken advantage of time and time again. and someone could easily say "well it dosent make sense to put a distro warehouse in Edgewater" and theyd be right, but you cant have this conversation with tracing back the reasons the expressways are where they are in the first place, and why some communities were spared that burden and others were chosen explicitly to carry it.

the reality is this site COULD be an incredible amenity with a bit of creativity. imagine climbing classes up the exterior of the old silos and the ensuing "summit" views, fishing and kayak docks, restored prairie paths. simply look at what the city has done with Big Marsh Park, which is also in a heavily industrial area but has become a natural and recreational oasis in the midst of it. or Palmisano Park, which also was more or less a dump and now is a best in class neighborhood amenity. the irony is these old hulking industrial sites/buildings offer truly rare opportunities to build things and tell stories utterly unique to the city and the neighborhoods while also contributing to growth, and theyre treated as disposable afterthoughts all too frequently. yes, warehouses have to go somewhere and tax dollars are important, but there needs to be a balance, esp in relation to what other neighborhoods are afforded.

Last edited by Via Chicago; Aug 17, 2022 at 5:49 PM.
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  #51108  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2022, 5:21 PM
twister244 twister244 is online now
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
The explanation for why those neighborhoods remained "stable" is that Black and Latino neighborhoods have vastly different origin stories.

The influx of Black people into formerly white neighborhoods led to massive disinvestment in the 60s through shady practices like blockbusting and panic peddling. Other practices like contract buying just destroyed any wealth the Black community had managed to build up from good-paying industrial jobs. Then the jobs went away and the wealth could not be replenished, leaving Black neighborhoods in a state of permanent poverty. Shady landlords engaged in arson for the insurance money, and shocks like the MLK riots left permanent scars because these neighborhoods had no capital to rebuild themselves.

The arrival of Latinos in the 80s and 90s was more gradual and intentional. Managed integration, you could call it. In Little Village, there were deliberate efforts by community groups and banks to transition the neighborhood to a Mexican one slowly as the old Czechs and Poles died out or moved to the burbs. This helped both the new arrivals to have a stable community, and helped the old white ethnics be able to sell their properties for a fair price. New laws like the Fair Housing Act played a role too in limiting the abuses of the 50s/60s real estate market.
This is a super informative and interesting post......

It's one of the many reasons I find Chicago to be such a fascinating city is because of the "melting pot" nature of how different groups have moved around in/out of the city for decades going back over 100 years.
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  #51109  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2022, 5:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
The explanation for why those neighborhoods remained "stable" is that Black and Latino neighborhoods have vastly different origin stories.

The influx of Black people into formerly white neighborhoods led to massive disinvestment in the 60s through shady practices like blockbusting and panic peddling. Other practices like contract buying just destroyed any wealth the Black community had managed to build up from good-paying industrial jobs. Then the jobs went away and the wealth could not be replenished, leaving Black neighborhoods in a state of permanent poverty. Shady landlords engaged in arson for the insurance money, and shocks like the MLK riots left permanent scars because these neighborhoods had no capital to rebuild themselves.

The arrival of Latinos in the 80s and 90s was more gradual and intentional. Managed integration, you could call it. In Little Village, there were deliberate efforts by community groups and banks to transition the neighborhood to a Mexican one slowly as the old Czechs and Poles died out or moved to the burbs. This helped both the new arrivals to have a stable community, and helped the old white ethnics be able to sell their properties for a fair price. New laws like the Fair Housing Act played a role too in limiting the abuses of the 50s/60s real estate market.
Cogent distillation of the big picture. Thank you Ardecila.
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  #51110  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2022, 5:47 PM
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I highly recommend reading Beryl Satter's "Family Properties"... if you've ever wondered why Englewood or North Lawndale look the way they do today.
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  #51111  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2022, 7:16 PM
galleyfox galleyfox is online now
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Originally Posted by west-town-brad View Post
manufacturing looks to be pretty equally distributed around the City of Chicago based on this report:

https://www.chicago.gov/content/dam/...ries/CSI_2.pdf
I live in South Chicago by the Calumet, so I’m not exactly unaffected by these debates.

But honestly the idea of spreading out the logistics and manufacturing sounds like complete nonsense. For the same reasons that spreading out the Loop office jobs is not realistic.

These companies want access to the interstates, airports, downtown, and an experienced and interested workforce. Otherwise, they would set up in the suburbs.


Manufacturing Jobs by Census Place and Chicago Community Area in the Chicago Region, 2015

https://tcf.org/content/report/revit...ties/?agreed=1

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  #51112  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2022, 7:34 PM
galleyfox galleyfox is online now
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Originally Posted by Via Chicago View Post

i think a perfect example is the development of La Villita Park. that was a toxic superfund site. the community for years fought to get it cleaned up and turned into a park. their thoughts easily could have been dismissed and something like a distro warehouse could have gone there. someone could easily say "why build a park in a space thats directly adjacent to a massive jail complex? this isnt an ideal spot and it could be used for other uses". today, thats a lively park as it was originally envisioned that is primarily used by locals, and it has not led to gentrification. people here are yearning for more green space. theyre not opposed to it in the least as far as ive seen. but larger economic development forces typically steamroll those ambitions.



the reality is this site COULD be an incredible amenity with a bit of creativity. imagine climbing classes up the exterior of the old silos and the ensuing "summit" views, fishing and kayak docks, restored prairie paths. simply look at what the city has done with Big Marsh Park, which is also in a heavily industrial area but has become a natural and recreational oasis in the midst of it. or Palmisano Park, which also was more or less a dump and now is a best in class neighborhood amenity. the irony is these old hulking industrial sites/buildings offer truly rare opportunities to build things and tell stories utterly unique to the city and the neighborhoods while also contributing to growth, and theyre treated as disposable afterthoughts all too frequently. yes, warehouses have to go somewhere and tax dollars are important, but there needs to be a balance, esp in relation to what other neighborhoods are afforded.
La Villita Park and Palmisano Park are small areas located within or immediately adjacent to residential areas. I agree that such locations make fine parks in neighborhoods without one.

I do not agree that the Damen Silos fall in that same category.

They are at least 15 minutes walk from the closest neighborhood house across a nest of rail and interstates.

It’s the same reason that Southworks and Steelworkers Park is not a highly used area (practically a private park 90% of the time) in spite of having Lake Michigan, rock climbing, wildlife and no interstate.

There would have to be substantial gentrification nearby to support rock climbing, kayaking and other such activities in sufficient volume.

Those “larger economic development forces” include plenty of locals who are not as vocal as the activist groups, but have equal political influence.
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  #51113  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2022, 10:40 PM
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732 W Randolph

August 16, 2022



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  #51114  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2022, 10:41 PM
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1020 W Randolph

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  #51115  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2022, 6:22 AM
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Very interesting choice to do that out of concrete. Buildings of that size are almost always steel.
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  #51116  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2022, 6:57 AM
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Already starting to look like it's own downtown.

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August 16, 2022


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  #51117  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2022, 2:16 PM
twister244 twister244 is online now
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I love seeing the smaller infill projects in the West Loop. It will compliment the larger projects immensely and help keep the pedestrian experience good as more gets built out.
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  #51118  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2022, 3:05 PM
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
The explanation for why those neighborhoods remained "stable" is that Black and Latino neighborhoods have vastly different origin stories.

The influx of Black people into formerly white neighborhoods led to massive disinvestment in the 60s through shady practices like blockbusting and panic peddling. Other practices like contract buying just destroyed any wealth the Black community had managed to build up from good-paying industrial jobs. Then the jobs went away and the wealth could not be replenished, leaving Black neighborhoods in a state of permanent poverty. Shady landlords engaged in arson for the insurance money, and shocks like the MLK riots left permanent scars because these neighborhoods had no capital to rebuild themselves.

The arrival of Latinos in the 80s and 90s was more gradual and intentional. Managed integration, you could call it. In Little Village, there were deliberate efforts by community groups and banks to transition the neighborhood to a Mexican one slowly as the old Czechs and Poles died out or moved to the burbs. This helped both the new arrivals to have a stable community, and helped the old white ethnics be able to sell their properties for a fair price. New laws like the Fair Housing Act played a role too in limiting the abuses of the 50s/60s real estate market.
Glad someone on this forum understands what really caused the issues our great city is still plagued by today.
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  #51119  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2022, 3:48 AM
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There were 2 demo permits issued for 1744-46 W Addison - most of that is the former 1 story Cafe Orchid building and a small parking lot in front. It is just a few minutes walk to the Addison Brown Line Stop. If you remember, the plans are to replace it with a 70 foot tall building with 52 units and ground floor retail/commercial. Only 9 parking spaces. The permit is currently pending under the address 3605 N Ravenswood

What you may remember it as:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/17...!4d-87.6732838


Renderings of the new building via https://chicagoyimby.com/2021/06/ren...lake-view.html
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  #51120  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2022, 1:46 PM
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There were 2 demo permits issued for 1744-46 W Addison - most of that is the former 1 story Cafe Orchid building and a small parking lot in front. It is just a few minutes walk to the Addison Brown Line Stop. If you remember, the plans are to replace it with a 70 foot tall building with 52 units and ground floor retail/commercial. Only 9 parking spaces. The permit is currently pending under the address 3605 N Ravenswood

What you may remember it as:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/17...!4d-87.6732838

Renderings of the new building via https://chicagoyimby.com/2021/06/ren...lake-view.html
Can confirm demo had already started on the lot behind the strip mall.

Also, excavation has finally started for this (pretty transformational for the immediate area) project just south of Damen/Lincoln/Irving Park intersection: https://chicago.urbanize.city/post/f...lincoln-avenue
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