The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[cdnguys]

Does anyone know if the wind farm in Lorneville can be expanded to have more turbines? I see in some places in Europe energy hungry tech companies want to locate where they can get 100% renewable energy - and Spruce Lake IP has lots of flat land. Just wondering with that combo if we could attract some business.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

Does anyone know if the wind farm in Lorneville can be expanded to have more turbines? I see in some places in Europe energy hungry tech companies want to locate where they can get 100% renewable energy - and Spruce Lake IP has lots of flat land. Just wondering with that combo if we could attract some business.

I think the power from the turbines is all sent east to the city.

There were at minimum 15 turbine sites that passed muster. I presume a lot of them are along the black road: https://www.naturalforces.ca/uploads...oct_7_2021.pdf

No idea if there is supposed to be a phase 2, or if the 5 unbuilt turbines were on inferior sites for some reason.

[DyAm00394]

507 MAIN STREET LEASED

https://www.bbrokers.ca/507-main-street-leased/

"Brunswick Brokers is pleased to announce the leasing of 507 Main Street in Saint John. Entrepreneur and nightclub operator Sandeep Saini has leased the stand-alone building with plans to open King’s Club Bar & Lounge. Saini operated a night club in Moncton with the same name but sold the business recently to open another one in Saint John. The Saini family are no strangers to the Saint John business community with Sandeep’s family also operating Royal King Taste of India on Union Street and Grand King India Grocery in Parkway Mall.

507 Main Street is known by many locals as “The Main Brace” and is easily recognized by the battle scene mural on the side of the building which was painted in the early 1980’s by prominent Saint John Artist , Ray Butler. The property has had many uses over the decades including a bank, legion and even operated a popular nightclub in the early 2010’s. The street is also famous for the annual Marigolds on Main which sees thousands of children plant a sea of bright marigolds in the median.

The immediate area is rumored to see significant changes in the streetscape over the coming years including a new mixed-use development in the lots next door to 507 Main and a re-engineering of Main Street by the City of Saint John with a reduction in vehicle lanes and the addition of a dedicated cycling lane.

King’s Club Bar & Lounge is scheduled to be open to the public last week of May 1st, 2023".

[ColSJ]

507 MAIN STREET LEASED
By Connor Carson Posted in Lease On April 17, 2023

https://www.bbrokers.ca/507-main-street-leased/

I found this snippet to be of interest...

The immediate area is rumored to see significant changes in the streetscape over the coming years including a new mixed-use development in the lots next door to 507 Main and a re-engineering of Main Street by the City of Saint John with a reduction in vehicle lanes and the addition of a dedicated cycling lane.

It has been rumored development is coming to this stretch for a while but the precise language of "mixed-use development" gives me the impression it is likely someone is waiting for the city to complete the road diet and then will move in with development.

Edit: I see two of us caught this at the same time.

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by JakeNB

I am resigned to the apparent fact that the Museum board will make the same mistake that was made with the siting of the hospital and UNBSJ and we will miss a generational opportunity to develop our uptown core. Sydney Opera house is not in the suburbs. Meanwhile we will be left with undeveloped Fundy Quay for 10+ years.

I'm not sure these are analogous, given that Douglas Avenue is the oldest suburb in the city, been central to the city for nearly 150 years, and is very much in the heart of the community geographically, whereas the hospital and UNBSJ were placed in what was basically rural areas at the time.

I'd prefer to see the museum Uptown too, but it's also not some kind of horrid generational mistake if it ends up 800-1200 m away.

[JakeNB]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

I'd prefer to see the museum Uptown too, but it's also not some kind of horrid generational mistake if it ends up 800-1200 m away.

I’m not sure where you get 8-1200m. Apple Maps says the current Museum building is 2.2km from City Hall. At least a 30m walk. Add another 10-15 min from the cruise terminals. I stand by my opinion that it would be a terrible mistake to rebuild on the Douglas Ave. location.

[UptownJeff]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

I'm not sure these are analogous, given that Douglas Avenue is the oldest suburb in the city, been central to the city for nearly 150 years, and is very much in the heart of the community geographically, whereas the hospital and UNBSJ were placed in what was basically rural areas at the time.

I'd prefer to see the museum Uptown too, but it's also not some kind of horrid generational mistake if it ends up 800-1200 m away.

I support the redevelopment of the Douglas avenue location. Yes it’s a half hour walk from market square but it’s a nice walk along harbour passage. Buses also run the route regularly and I suspect there will be shuttles in place for cruise passengers. This could be the cornerstone of the redevelopment of Main Street as well. There are other much more significant plans in place and the museum is just one piece. I think putting it on the waterfront would be a mistake. What I would like to see is an exhibition space form part of Fundy quay. I know there are/will be 1000 opinions and mine is just one.

[bridgeoftea]

Originally Posted by JakeNB

I’m not sure where you get 8-1200m. Apple Maps says the current Museum building is 2.2km from City Hall. At least a 30m walk. Add another 10-15 min from the cruise terminals. I stand by my opinion that it would be a terrible mistake to rebuild on the Douglas Ave. location.

And that's 30 minutes of uphill walking too at times. My thoughts are towards older people, or those with disabilities on cruise ships will probably swerve the museum if it's not uptown.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by bridgeoftea

And that's 30 minutes of uphill walking too at times. My thoughts are towards older people, or those with disabilities on cruise ships will probably swerve the museum if it's not uptown.

It's completely level except up Bentley, if you take Harbour Passage. If you take Main, it's just St. Patrick and then a mild gradient on Main to Douglas. If that scares people off, wait until they see Princess St.

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

It's completely level except up Bentley, if you take Harbour Passage. If you take Main, it's just St. Patrick and then a mild gradient on Main to Douglas. If that scares people off, wait until they see Princess St.

The majority of cruise ship passengers get on buses for those types of tours anyway, and honestly from staff I've talked to a real target is schools coming for programming from around the province/region, the cruise ships are not the priority really.

[JakeNB]

I must say that I find it odd how many on this board do not support the development of the Museum in the uptown core. Regardless of the precise distance, whether there are shuttles, buses, or whether the 30+ minute walk is mainly flat, the fact remains that Douglas Ave. is not part of the uptown - the heart of the City. We are having extreme difficulty seeing development actually occur in the area (see 99 King, Fundy Quay, etc) and this would be - to use the City’s terminology- a catalytic project.

[Joe]

Agree 100% with JakeNB

[ColSJ]

Originally Posted by JakeNB

I must say that I find it odd how many on this board do not support the development of the Museum in the uptown core. Regardless of the precise distance, whether there are shuttles, buses, or whether the 30+ minute walk is mainly flat, the fact remains that Douglas Ave. is not part of the uptown - the heart of the City. We are having extreme difficulty seeing development actually occur in the area (see 99 King, Fundy Quay, etc) and this would be - to use the City’s terminology- a catalytic project.

Agreed.

I think we are too okay with accepting mediocre. This museum should be uptown, no question. Anything less would be a disappointment.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by JakeNB

I must say that I find it odd how many on this board do not support the development of the Museum in the uptown core. Regardless of the precise distance, whether there are shuttles, buses, or whether the 30+ minute walk is mainly flat, the fact remains that Douglas Ave. is not part of the uptown - the heart of the City. We are having extreme difficulty seeing development actually occur in the area (see 99 King, Fundy Quay, etc) and this would be - to use the City’s terminology- a catalytic project.

I think it makes sense to renovate the Douglas Avenue building, and add onto that amazing building... however, THAT should be the additional exhibition space. The main part of the new museum should be on the Saint John oceanfront, and there should be a wooden tall ship floating, docked in front of it.

The sugar Refinery site makes the most sense. The last thing we need to see move in there down the line is more industry, warhouse, or whatever NB's titans of industry can dream up to put on the Saint John waterfront.

Put the New Museum at the old sugar refinery site, and have a ferry between the new museum and Fort Dufferin on the West Side... it would be good for the West Side, good for the South End, and even good for the rest of Uptown.

The area south of the Cruise Ship terminals is woefully underdeveloped, and this could be the "catalytic project" for making the South End and West Side less industrial, more pleasant places to live.

The Uptown core has received most the city's development focus in recent years, I think it's high time the South End and West Side got something that wasn't industrial or commercial. A ferry connecting the West Side with the new Museum Uptown would be a huge boon for tourism, and let cruise ship and ferry passengers alike traverse across the Saint John harbour to important cruise ship passengers on both side of the harbour.

If we got our tourism act together there would be regular bus service between Portland, ME and Saint John, NB... there would be a Bay Ferries run bus connecting Digby and Yarmouth, and we could market Saint John as a "local cruise" destination for New England tourists, that requires no car.

Putting the new museum in Saint John having a ferry between the West Side and Uptown would not only be a game changer for tourism, it breath new life into the West Side and South End. Saint Johnners need to make their voices heard on this topic, or risk the NB museum board putting it in a location that won't be optimal for the future growth and development of our city. The last place it should be built is along the river valley, where I've already seen some proposals for it to be built.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Coyett

Diamond + Schmitt to rebuild New Brunswick Museum
Archiseek / Canada /

Architecture News / 2006 / September 30
The New Brunswick Museum has announced that the Toronto-based Diamond + Schmitt Architects have been chosen to redesign the institution and give it more space and improved facilities. Established in 1842, it is Canada's oldest continually operating museum, but at its current location in Market Square, Saint John, it can only display 5 per cent of its collection. This includes a Hall of Great Whales, a strong decorative-arts collection from the 18th and 18th century, when New Brunswick was an international shipbuilding centre, and the Maritimes' largest research collection of bird specimens -- about 10,000 skins, skeletons, eggs and nests.

The museum chose Diamond +Schmitt, which has won more than 100 national and international awards for planning and design, from among 12 competitors. Jack Diamond, who led the team for Toronto's new Four Seasons Centre for the Performing Arts, will serve as the principal in charge, with Michael Leckman as project architect. Leckman was design director for the University of Toronto's Bahen Centre and the Medicine Hat Arts and Heritage Centre. "We were really impressed by the firm's ability to present international architecture in an environment that speaks to New Brunswick," says Jane Fullerton, the museum's director. "The waterfront will be a key part of that."

Pretty crazy this development from 2006 is essentially where we still are in 2023, right now to the same architecture firm in Diamond +Schmitt.

Hope they still think that "The waterfront will be key". 😅

[UptownJeff]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

I think it makes sense to renovate the Douglas Avenue building, and add onto that amazing building... however, THAT should be the additional exhibition space. The main part of the new museum should be on the Saint John oceanfront, and there should be a wooden tall ship floating, docked in front of it.

The sugar Refinery site makes the most sense. The last thing we need to see move in there down the line is more industry, warhouse, or whatever NB's titans of industry can dream up to put on the Saint John waterfront.

Put the New Museum at the old sugar refinery site, and have a ferry between the new museum and Fort Dufferin on the West Side... it would be good for the West Side, good for the South End, and even good for the rest of Uptown.

The area south of the Cruise Ship terminals is woefully underdeveloped, and this could be the "catalytic project" for making the South End and West Side less industrial, more pleasant places to live.

The Uptown core has received most the city's development focus in recent years, I think it's high time the South End and West Side got something that wasn't industrial or commercial. A ferry connecting the West Side with the new Museum Uptown would be a huge boon for tourism, and let cruise ship and ferry passengers alike traverse across the Saint John harbour to important cruise ship passengers on both side of the harbour.

If we got our tourism act together there would be regular bus service between Portland, ME and Saint John, NB... there would be a Bay Ferries run bus connecting Digby and Yarmouth, and we could market Saint John as a "local cruise" destination for New England tourists, that requires no car.

Putting the new museum in Saint John having a ferry between the West Side and Uptown would not only be a game changer for tourism, it breath new life into the West Side and South End. Saint Johnners need to make their voices heard on this topic, or risk the NB museum board putting it in a location that won't be optimal for the future growth and development of our city. The last place it should be built is along the river valley, where I've already seen some proposals for it to be built.

These are all interesting and excellent suggestions and it will be interesting to see what the province finally decides. I do support the reimagining of Douglas Ave but I would also like to see an exhibition space on the waterfront (or close to the waterfront). I'm certainly not an expert nor am I aware of the logistics involved in the waterfront sites mentioned - long wharf/sugar refinery - but in my opinion a museum is 90% "warehouse" and 10% exhibition space. I would not want to see waterfront land eaten up with a warehouse. Storage and research space could actually go anywhere as long as we have a modern, and evolving space for exhibits that is close to or in the Uptown. My personal vision is for a "new" structure on Douglas - this could be the catalyst for a redeveloped and dynamic Main Street as well as a redevelopment of the area along the river to the old north end. As others have mentioned, this is a generational development - and I hope that those in power have the vision to see what this could become in the years and decades ahead.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by UptownJeff

These are all interesting and excellent suggestions and it will be interesting to see what the province finally decides. I do support the reimagining of Douglas Ave but I would also like to see an exhibition space on the waterfront (or close to the waterfront). I'm certainly not an expert nor am I aware of the logistics involved in the waterfront sites mentioned - long wharf/sugar refinery - but in my opinion a museum is 90% "warehouse" and 10% exhibition space. I would not want to see waterfront land eaten up with a warehouse. Storage and research space could actually go anywhere as long as we have a modern, and evolving space for exhibits that is close to or in the Uptown. My personal vision is for a "new" structure on Douglas - this could be the catalyst for a redeveloped and dynamic Main Street as well as a redevelopment of the area along the river to the old north end. As others have mentioned, this is a generational development - and I hope that those in power have the vision to see what this could become in the years and decades ahead.

It will be interesting to see what the Province and the Museum Board decides, as long as they actual consult the residents of Saint John... but if they just stick it wherever they want without consulting local residents, it will be starting the project off on the wrong foot... and so far it seems the latter is more likely than the former, unfortunately.

70% or more of Saint John's Harbour-front both Uptown and on the West Side is currently occupied by industry, commercial enterprises, the port, and railways. Even if a museum is 90% warehouse, 10% exhibition space, the biggest part of the new museum project should be built Uptown. Refurbish and expand Douglas avenue, keep the warehouse space at 228 Lancaster Ave, but build the main attraction Uptown.

Most importantly, we need to have a wooden ship floating in front of it.

[ColSJ]

Did the regional economic development agency just join the chat?

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by JakeNB

I must say that I find it odd how many on this board do not support the development of the Museum in the uptown core. Regardless of the precise distance, whether there are shuttles, buses, or whether the 30+ minute walk is mainly flat, the fact remains that Douglas Ave. is not part of the uptown - the heart of the City. We are having extreme difficulty seeing development actually occur in the area (see 99 King, Fundy Quay, etc) and this would be - to use the City’s terminology- a catalytic project.

I don't see it as odd at all, to me it's embracing that the city core is too hamstrung by the idea of the central peninsula south of the highway/bridge. Take the area around Rockland Rd/Winter St/Seely St./etc. for example, that's all dense, walkable and barely outside of the central business district, but as soon as you pass the highway Saint Johners dismiss it as not being central. Same goes for parts of Main Street and Douglas Avenue. Case in point, I live in Mount Pleasant and I have a shorter walk to the City Market than I did when I lived in the deep South End, it's all the perception of the highway that means it's "outside of the core."

When I lived in Halifax the peninsula was physically many times the size of SJ's central peninsula, and few thought anything of the distance from the downtown to the Dal campus for example, or from SMU to the Seaport Farmers Market, both of which are further distances than Uptown to the existing museum site.

At some point the city's urban growth is going to embrace secondary areas like the North End - which currently has more units actually under construction than Uptown does - so why not start acknowledging that now?

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

I don't see it as odd at all, to me it's embracing that the city core is too hamstrung by the idea of the central peninsula south of the highway/bridge. Take the area around Rockland Rd/Winter St/Seely St./etc. for example, that's all dense, walkable and barely outside of the central business district, but as soon as you pass the highway Saint Johners dismiss it as not being central. Same goes for parts of Main Street and Douglas Avenue. Case in point, I live in Mount Pleasant and I have a shorter walk to the City Market than I did when I lived in the deep South End, it's all the perception of the highway that means it's "outside of the core."

When I lived in Halifax the peninsula was physically many times the size of SJ's central peninsula, and few thought anything of the distance from the downtown to the Dal campus for example, or from SMU to the Seaport Farmers Market, both of which are further distances than Uptown to the existing museum site.

At some point the city's urban growth is going to embrace secondary areas like the North End - which currently has more units actually under construction than Uptown does - so why not start acknowledging that now?

I agree. Everything between Mount Pleasant and the throughway is prime from location/housing stock perspectives. Old North End will take a lot of blood sweat and tears and a big catalytic project or two.

What's a little concerning is we possibly have the regional development agency seriously looking at a ferry between the lower west side and the south end, which would be an absolutely wild waste of money to construct landings for, and operate at a loss forever. There's a million priorities that should come before cute little things like a pedestrian ferry between a depopulated suburb and downtown.