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  #21  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2021, 12:33 PM
jtown,man jtown,man is offline
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Anti-gentrifiers always say they want the current residents to stay.

What if those current residents, or a significant minority of them, are the actual issue?

This isn't something you say in polite company I suppose but we have to deal with facts.
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  #22  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2021, 1:59 PM
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Originally Posted by jtown,man View Post
Anti-gentrifiers always say they want the current residents to stay.

What if those current residents, or a significant minority of them, are the actual issue?

This isn't something you say in polite company I suppose but we have to deal with facts.
How many poor people with children do you know who have time and energy to sit around and protest gentrification? The working class don’t give a f**k about gray vs. red brick.

The vocal anti-gentrifiers ARE the aspiring bourgeoisie or whatever moving in. They’ve got a different vocabulary from their predecessors: the oldies talk about “character of the neighborhood”, the newbies speak of “preventing displacement”, but they’re the same people.

In places like Logan Square, the real gentrification that displaced the most problematic members of the old community happened about 20 years ago. It’s easy to be poetic about the current residents when the poor are mostly starving artists or seniors. Nobody complained in the early years when the gang members got priced out.
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  #23  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2021, 2:39 PM
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Originally Posted by galleyfox View Post
How many poor people with children do you know who have time and energy to sit around and protest gentrification? The working class don’t give a f**k about gray vs. red brick.

The vocal anti-gentrifiers ARE the aspiring bourgeoisie or whatever moving in. They’ve got a different vocabulary from their predecessors: the oldies talk about “character of the neighborhood”, the newbies speak of “preventing displacement”, but they’re the same people.

In places like Logan Square, the real gentrification that displaced the most problematic members of the old community happened about 20 years ago. It’s easy to be poetic about the current residents when the poor are mostly starving artists or seniors. Nobody complained in the early years when the gang members got priced out.
You can't paint everything with such a broad brush.

There was/is a big local push in the Fruit Belt neighborhood of Buffalo against expansion of the Medical Center, and against residential developments that aspire to "gentrify" the neighborhood. It is absolutely not coming from the "gentrifiers" or "aspiring bourgeoisie." Part of the credentials of aspiring Mayoral candidate India Walton are that she was a neighborhood advocate who worked to gain neighborhood control and land bank empty neighborhood properties to keep them from speculators and higher-end developers.
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  #24  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2021, 2:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Segun View Post
Has there been any examples of so-called "bombed out" neighborhoods that have been gentrified into thriving areas outside of NYC? I can't think of any in Chicago. In Chicago, there's areas where they've removed a significant portion of rubble and trash, perhaps replaced wild growth with grassy fields, replaced broken sidewalks and streets with new infrastructure, and built the occasional new development, but it's nothing on a large scale.
Brush Park in Detroit has gone from a bombed out neighbourhood of dilapidated Victorian mansions, flop houses and urban prairie just north of DT to a very vibrant area of new condos, townhomes, restaurants, retailers and beautifully renovated Victorian mansions. It is one of the hottest parts of the city currently and probably the most gentrified neighbourhood.


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  #25  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2021, 3:30 PM
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Originally Posted by segun View Post
has there been any examples of so-called "bombed out" neighborhoods that have been gentrified into thriving areas outside of nyc?
Washington D.C.
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  #26  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2021, 5:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Segun View Post
Has there been any examples of so-called "bombed out" neighborhoods that have been gentrified into thriving areas outside of NYC? I can't think of any in Chicago. In Chicago, there's areas where they've removed a significant portion of rubble and trash, perhaps replaced wild growth with grassy fields, replaced broken sidewalks and streets with new infrastructure, and built the occasional new development, but it's nothing on a large scale.
Miami and Miami Beach have several neighborhoods (anything north of downtown ). Fort Lauderdale does too (Wilton Manors, Flagler Village, Dania Beach) .
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  #27  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2021, 5:31 PM
Chisouthside Chisouthside is offline
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Originally Posted by galleyfox View Post
It’s always presented as black and white because the loudest voices are late-stage gentrifiers against gentrification. Meaning students and professional activists- the people most able to secure affordable housing in a different neighborhood or city.

Gentrification IS a process that takes decades. In Chicago, articles about Pilsen gentrifying have been written since the 1980s

Nobody protests the early stages when the gang members are being evicted. Once that happens, working class people compete among themselves to live in the safe, stable neighborhood. Then hipsters discover the place exists, and they attempt to use the government to eliminate competition.

Gentrification happens because the lower middle class and poor are extremely mobile even when prices are rock bottom (especially because prices are rock bottom as iis the maintenance) Gentrification mostly prevents their reentry into a particular neighborhood.
Funny that you say nobody protests in the early stages but you brought up Pilsen, where people from the neighborhood are still the most vocal against gentrification but def started mobilizing in the 80s way before any gang members were evicted. And if you actually knew what you were talking about youll know that in places like logan and pilsen the gangbangers' families have long standing ties to the neighborhoods and very often own property and oftentimes the gangbangers will actually be the last of the old residents to leave the neighborhood
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  #28  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2021, 5:32 PM
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The reality is that cities and neighborhoods are always changing. If they aren’t, then they are declining as the population gets older and dies off and are not replaced by new blood (see: any “rust belt” anywhere). No one has a god given right to live in a particular place; life is a competition for finite resources and someone is no more entitled to live in the most desirable part of Manhattan than I am to drive a Ferrari.
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  #29  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2021, 5:50 PM
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Originally Posted by galleyfox View Post
The vocal anti-gentrifiers ARE the aspiring bourgeoisie or whatever moving in. They’ve got a different vocabulary from their predecessors: the oldies talk about “character of the neighborhood”, the newbies speak of “preventing displacement”, but they’re the same people.
Not true. At least not in Los Angeles.

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  #30  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2021, 7:17 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
The reality is that cities and neighborhoods are always changing. If they aren’t, then they are declining as the population gets older and dies off and are not replaced by new blood (see: any “rust belt” anywhere).
Exactly.
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  #31  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2021, 8:00 PM
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Originally Posted by jtown,man View Post
Anti-gentrifiers always say they want the current residents to stay.

What if those current residents, or a significant minority of them, are the actual issue?

This isn't something you say in polite company I suppose but we have to deal with facts.
It's not something you say in polite society because it's widely understood that people who aren't classist or racists etc. don't consider other people to "be problems" ie to lack fundamental worth as humans. There's been a long history of people willing to deny the fundamental humanity of others and seeing whole groups of people are problems needing to be dealt with, the most famous being Jews, Native Americans, and Blacks, and if we've learned anything from history it's that if such thinking is allowed to persist unchallenged, things don't end well.
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  #32  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2021, 8:17 PM
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Originally Posted by galleyfox View Post
How many poor people with children do you know who have time and energy to sit around and protest gentrification? The working class don’t give a f**k about gray vs. red brick.

The vocal anti-gentrifiers ARE the aspiring bourgeoisie or whatever moving in. They’ve got a different vocabulary from their predecessors: the oldies talk about “character of the neighborhood”, the newbies speak of “preventing displacement”, but they’re the same people.

In places like Logan Square, the real gentrification that displaced the most problematic members of the old community happened about 20 years ago. It’s easy to be poetic about the current residents when the poor are mostly starving artists or seniors. Nobody complained in the early years when the gang members got priced out.
It's an ages old rhetorical tactic to, instead of arguing directly against a position, to instead create an identity that you can associate with that position and attempt to turn people against that unfavourable identity and thus turn people against the position by proxy. Hopefully most people on here are smart enough not to fall for such tricks and instead evaluate arguments on their own merit.
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Don't ask people not to debate a topic. Just stop making debatable assertions. Problem solved.
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  #33  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2021, 8:46 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
It's not something you say in polite society because it's widely understood that people who aren't classist or racists etc.
People who point their fingers at whoever is "classist" or "racist" are the most privileged and selfish of them all.
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  #34  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2021, 8:51 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
It's an ages old rhetorical tactic to, instead of arguing directly against a position, to instead create an identity that you can associate with that position and attempt to turn people against that unfavourable identity and thus turn people against the position by proxy.
Like "racist" and "classist"?
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  #35  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2021, 8:54 PM
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
People who point their fingers at whoever is "classist" or "racist" are the most privileged and selfish of them all.
Yeah because, you know, the victims of racism and classism never call the racists and classists out... (WTH?).
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  #36  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2021, 1:08 AM
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Addressing the point in the article (which I finally read), I think that it depends.

If there is a group of people who want to live in suburbia and can't, then I think that there is a problem.

I think that the only solution is to densify suburbia.
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  #37  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2021, 1:18 AM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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I think that the flipside of this is that suburbia is just kind of exclusive in general. If it were to be subdivided and made accessible to more people, then it wouldn't be suburbia. Maybe this is an argument for getting rid of suburbia?

Is the person with perfect attendance over the course of a 40-year career the same sort of person as one who calls in 40 times each year?

Do productive and responsible people have more to learn from unproductive and irresponsible people or vice-verse?

Do givers have more to learn from takers or vice-verse?
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  #38  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2021, 4:04 AM
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I'm kind of lost in the debate, tbh.

I just want to say, I can't believe that people are arguing that gentrification is a good thing because the poor people living in an area are a problem.

Anyhow, I'm out.
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Last edited by SFBruin; Sep 24, 2021 at 3:59 PM.
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  #39  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2021, 9:19 AM
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Originally Posted by SFBruin View Post
I'm kind of lost in the debate, tbh.

I just want to say, I can't believe that people are arguing that gentrification is a good thing because the poor people living in an area are a problem.

Anyhow, I'm out. Goodbye.
Well, some of them are. Not the single mothers and working immigrants, but the ‘troublemakers’ basically need to be forced to leave for the neighborhood to really improve.
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  #40  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2021, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
It's not something you say in polite society because it's widely understood that people who aren't classist or racists etc. don't consider other people to "be problems" ie to lack fundamental worth as humans. There's been a long history of people willing to deny the fundamental humanity of others and seeing whole groups of people are problems needing to be dealt with, the most famous being Jews, Native Americans, and Blacks, and if we've learned anything from history it's that if such thinking is allowed to persist unchallenged, things don't end well.
It's also not always applicable even if you were to consider the poor, minorities, or especially poor minorities to be a problem. There's the idea that gentrification is always the process of taking a poor area and turning it into a rich one. Sometimes, gentrification is simply the process of taking a stable, safe area, and making it unaffordable for all but the richest. I've seen it in Asheville: Asheville isn't a city where house-flippers have a lot to do because there aren't many houses left that need a rehab. In-town neighborhoods have never been more popular, and Asheville has never had a larger population. However, what's happening -- it was in process for a while, and the pandemic sent it into hyperdrive -- is that people from outside, who don't have to work in Asheville for crappy $10/hour Asheville wages, come in, bring their money, and think nothing of dropping half a million on a small, crummy bungalow. They're pouring in, driving up housing prices, which drives up property taxes, and either the current residents get to where they can't afford the taxes or can't afford a new house if they've outgrown the old one. They leave, and someone else moves in from Seattle, DC, or New York, and goes wild over the bargain they've found for a mere $600,000, for nearly a thousand square feet! Never mind that same house would have cost $450,000 five years ago, and would have come in at less than $200,000 ten years ago.

Asheville wasn't poor when all of this started. Most of the poor people who weren't in the public housing had already been pushed out. What's going on there is that gentrification is occurring by inflating the property values, and it's pushing out the middle class. And considering that most of Asheville's minorities had already been pushed out by the constant influx of rich old white people, gentrification in Asheville -- much to the confusion of folks like jtown and jmeck, I would imagine -- is largely affecting... white... people.
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