Winnipeg Ice

[bomberjet]

IIRC Kapyong wants an event centre or arena on the land south of Taylor, east of Kenaston. Would seem like a decent fit.

Everything is very expensive right now though.. So who knows. Maybe they can leverage an agreement with the feds for some cash to make that work.

[inlp89]

Isn't there some rule/law that another pro hockey team can not build and operate an arena within a certain vicinity of CLC without approval from TNS?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by inlp89

Isn't there some rule/law that another pro hockey team can not build and operate an arena within a certain vicinity of CLC without approval from TNS?

The agreement was never about giving TNSE a monopoly on enclosed arenas, but rather that government wouldn't subsidize another arena, as I recall. I'm not sure who it captured, though... the city? Or the province? Or all three along with the feds?

I guess things could get a little messy if TNSE interprets a favourable land deal from the U of M as a "subsidy" and challenges it, if it came to that. I'm not sure where organizations like Kapyong consortium or RREA would fall under that.

[thurmas]

Originally Posted by inlp89

Isn't there some rule/law that another pro hockey team can not build and operate an arena within a certain vicinity of CLC without approval from TNS?

If memory serves me right i believe it said cannot be an arena over 5000 seats.

[bomberjet]

TNSE can take a hike. I'll have to dig up that agreement. I remember it being ridiculous at the time they came up with that.

I'm going to be drinking $10 beers and eating $20 hotdogs at their facility tonight. That's enough for them IMO haha

[esquire]

Originally Posted by thurmas

If memory serves me right i believe it said cannot be an arena over 5000 seats.

Interesting if true. Because there is no way that the ICE would require an arena bigger than that.

That said, it is a bit weird to imagine public subsidies for a secondary arena. I mean, at the end of the day the ICE are a business owned by rich dudes. There would have to be a pretty strong case made for public subsidies. (On that note, I think it's a little weird seeing volunteer ushers and what not at ICE games giving freely of their time to a for-profit enterprise. It would be like volunteering for Scotiabank...)

I wish I could remember the specifics of that deal between TNSE and the levels of government. I did a quick online search but I couldn't find anything... I think that deal was hatched around 2001 or 2002 which is pretty much forever ago in terms of the Internet.

[inlp89]

Originally Posted by esquire

Interesting if true. Because there is no way that the ICE would require an arena bigger than that.

That said, it is a bit weird to imagine public subsidies for a secondary arena. I mean, at the end of the day the ICE are a business owned by rich dudes. There would have to be a pretty strong case made for public subsidies. (On that note, I think it's a little weird seeing volunteer ushers and what not at ICE games giving freely of their time to a for-profit enterprise. It would be like volunteering for Scotiabank...)

I wish I could remember the specifics of that deal between TNSE and the levels of government. I did a quick online search but I couldn't find anything... I think that deal was hatched around 2001 or 2002 which is pretty much forever ago in terms of the Internet.

Doesn't the ownership in Calgary own Flames, Wranglers, Hitman and Stampeders? Is TNSE in the market for a WHL team? Otherwise it might be a challenge finding a profitable location within the city for the current Ice ownership if TNSE has a say in it. reminds me of the Leafs, S Ontario can easily support a second NHL team but that will never happen bc of Rogers.

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by thurmas

If memory serves me right i believe it said cannot be an arena over 5000 seats.

A 4,500 seat arena would be a perfect venue for Winnipeg.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

A 4,500 seat arena would be a perfect venue for Winnipeg.

Yeah, it wouldn't be a money machine but it would be a nice community asset to have for things like the WHL or to support major hockey tournaments, the CEBL, lacrosse, mid sized concerts and combat sports (MMA, boxing, wrestling).

As I've noted before I don't think any other NHL city has the steep dropoff from NHL arena to community rinks with practically nothing in between.

[thurmas]

Originally Posted by esquire

Yeah, it wouldn't be a money machine but it would be a nice community asset to have for things like the WHL or to support major hockey tournaments, the CEBL, lacrosse, mid sized concerts and combat sports (MMA, boxing, wrestling).

As I've noted before I don't think any other NHL city has the steep dropoff from NHL arena to community rinks with practically nothing in between.

Being the curling capital of the world would be a great facility for that and like you said boxing and mma.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by dennis

You don’t have to tell anyone to leave. Look at the sites on a satellite view. You could probably put two CHL sized arenas on the site. So let me propose one arena, parking and PF Changs as the new Chi Chi’s for pre or post game dinner.

I was actually talking about a hypothetical new arena for the Jets at the old stadium...a little facetiously. I agree, a small CHL arena could easily fit in there as is.

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by esquire

Yeah, it wouldn't be a money machine but it would be a nice community asset to have for things like the WHL or to support major hockey tournaments, the CEBL, lacrosse, mid sized concerts and combat sports (MMA, boxing, wrestling).

As I've noted before I don't think any other NHL city has the steep dropoff from NHL arena to community rinks with practically nothing in between.

Here in Edmonton, I am unaware of any arena/venue, aside from Rogers Place, with a capacity of over 2,500 people. Although I could be wrong.

Edit: n/m. Clarke Drake Arena (U of A) has a capacity of 3,009.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

Here in Edmonton, I am unaware of any arena/venue, aside from Rogers Place, with a capacity of over 2,500 people. Although I could be wrong.

Edit: n/m. Clarke Drake Arena (U of A) has a capacity of 3,009.

Let's not forget the ORIGINAL HOME of the Winnipeg ICE, back in their Edmonton days! The ingloriously-named Hall D of Edmonton Expo Centre. 3,765 seats for hockey. It looks like what you'd get if you removed every ounce of charm that there is in Wayne Fleming, but added an upper level of seating to make up for it



Between Hall D, the original Cranbrook Memorial Arena and Wayne Fleming Arena, the ICE franchise has played in probably the least desirable collection of arenas out of any junior hockey franchise in existence ... the only exception was the period when they played in Western Financial Place in Cranbrook.

[wags_in_the_peg]

article in FreePress today...
https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/op...ice-arena-saga

With no construction underway, sources recently confirmed the Ice franchise was fined $500,000 by the league for its failure to have a building ready in time for 2023-24.

On the surface, a logical spot for building a 4,000-plus-seat arena might be elsewhere on the U of M campus or even on the former Southwood Golf and Country Club on University Crescent

He said an arena makes more sense on the field west of IG Field and University Stadium currently occupied by garden allotments on Chancellor Matheson Road.

“Honestly, if it was my real estate — which it’s not, I’m just the Southwood guy — I would try and do something to wedge them into that district and we’ll call it a district that is the Bombers stadium, the (indoor) soccer facility and the Bison facility and try and put it in there,” says Rogers.

“It’s good for me because I’ve got a retail district I’m planning (for the Southwood Lands) and rubbing my hands together because there’s not a brew pub within walking distance of sports facilities with lots of beer-drinking people.”

[esquire]

Well that's ominous. It sounds like the league is throwing down the gauntlet... "build or get off the pot". I can't imagine that a team that already has limited revenue can withstand a $500,000 hit.

It's becoming more and more obvious that the 50 Below guys can't get an arena deal done. So what is left besides turning to the only guys who do have an arena, TNSE? Either sell the team to them, or work out some kind of deal to play in CLC. I don't know what other options there are. Build arena, deal with TNSE or sell/move the team. That's it.

[Danny D Oh]

Originally Posted by esquire

Well that's ominous. It sounds like the league is throwing down the gauntlet... "build or get off the pot". I can't imagine that a team that already has limited revenue can withstand a $500,000 hit.

It's becoming more and more obvious that the 50 Below guys can't get an arena deal done. So what is left besides turning to the only guys who do have an arena, TNSE? Either sell the team to them, or work out some kind of deal to play in CLC. I don't know what other options there are. Build arena, deal with TNSE or sell/move the team. That's it.

It's interesting because I'm not sure there's markets beating down the league's door post-pandemic to have a WHL team. Smaller communities seem to be all over the Junior A leagues which now charge player fees and can be operated at a lower cost with more accessible ticket prices for those communities.

US markets aside from the Washington/Oregon teams have always failed in the WHL. Don't really know where they'd go. If anything maybe contraction.

[thurmas]

Also dealing with the UofM to get real estate deals done is always at a glacial pace.

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by esquire

So what is left besides turning to the only guys who do have an arena, TNSE? Either sell the team to them, or work out some kind of deal to play in CLC. I don't know what other options there are. Build arena, deal with TNSE or sell/move the team. That's it.

Probably a move to Nanaimo or Grande Prairie will happen within 3-4 years.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

Probably a move to Nanaimo or Grande Prairie will happen within 3-4 years.

Nanaimo is in the same boat as Winnipeg... they need a new building. No doubt it has the potential to be a strong market, but that $75 million building cost, give or take $10 million, is going to be quite a barrier.

There are a lot of places in a similar situation... decent junior A markets, but the arena is not good enough for the WHL. Grande Prairie is in that category. You can put Lloydminster in there too. At one time in their boomtown phase there was talk of putting a WHL team in Fort McMurray, but that has died down.

There are places like Penticton that do have an arena good enough for the WHL, but the junior A team is so well entrenched and supported that they wouldn't go down without a fight. Especially if the perception is that the WHL team is being run by carpetbagging out of towners with no loyalty (which is how the ICE would be perceived given that a move would put them into their third market in less than 5 years).

So there are some options, but none of them are easy slam-dunk choices. I'm not sure that any of them are obviously better than keeping the team in Winnipeg and continuing to work on an arena deal of one sort or another.

[wags_in_the_peg]

Originally Posted by Danny D Oh

It's interesting because I'm not sure there's markets beating down the league's door post-pandemic to have a WHL team. Smaller communities seem to be all over the Junior A leagues which now charge player fees and can be operated at a lower cost with more accessible ticket prices for those communities.

US markets aside from the Washington/Oregon teams have always failed in the WHL. Don't really know where they'd go. If anything maybe contraction.

Many (not all) Junior A teams in Prairies are struggling to get seats in stands too and their crowds are 100-700 majority. I have very first hand knowledge of this for the MJ especially