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  #51481  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2022, 3:40 PM
OrdoSeclorum OrdoSeclorum is offline
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Originally Posted by thegoatman View Post
Literally this. If i'm not enthusiastic about every single thing the DPD pumps out apparently i'm a troll lol. Chicago is the architectural capital of America, my fault for having standards. Lots of things changing around this whole corridor, just disappointing to still see massive warehouses take up valuable space. I do see it's not RIGHT on the river so I guess it's not terrible.
In American Beauty, after the daughter had a great cheerleading performance, her mom's praise came in the form of "You barely screwed up!" It was a way to quickly let the audience know what a negative drag the mom was.

If people get the idea that you're a troll, maybe you should take a look at the way you choose to write and how you comment. Because even when you're feeling good your comments are in the "you barely screwed up" mold.

-When something good happens, instead of saying "this is good" you use the format "this is better than that bad thing that I'd like to remind you of."

-When a very ordinary thing happens in an average part of Chicago, you compare it to the best, most notable part of some other city as a way to keep the frame negative.

-When something good happens, it's almost never a step in the right direction but an enemy of a perfect, unrealistic counterfactual.

-When something bad happens, you don't miss the opportunity to bring it up. If two companies move to town and one leaves, you'll only talk about the one that leaves.

Last edited by OrdoSeclorum; Nov 7, 2022 at 3:55 PM.
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  #51482  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2022, 3:54 PM
OrdoSeclorum OrdoSeclorum is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom In Chicago View Post
I'm not so sure this is true. . . with a few exceptions, Chicago hasn't built anything architecturally significant* here since the late 1980s. . .

I think what you're looking at is a legacy of Chicago architecture that existed in the 1900s but has long since been watered down and value engineered to oblivion. . .

I can't think of any project or firm that has really done exciting work here recently. . . Gang, Jahn, BKL, Hovey notwithstanding. . .

. . .
Maybe the best pizza in the country is in some amazing spot in Phoenix. That doesn't mean that Phoenix is a good *pizza town*. The quality of a city's pizza is determined by the quality of the median slice and the population's standards. A crummy pizza joint should struggle to stay in business in a good pizza town.

That's what architecture is like. A place with high standards, not Dubai or Shanghai where weird or enviable stuff is happening at the margins.

-Chicago is home of the skyscraper and prairie style. Rome may not have gladiator events any longer, but the colosseum is still important. Every architect wants to have a building in Chicago. This isn't true of Miami or Seattle.

-Chicago has architectural cruises and more notable elements than you can count, the Michigan Avenue streetwall, multiple view decks with lines out the door.

-Chicago is the only major U.S. city that was designed.

-The average building quality is quite high. It's certainly more interesting to look at the average building in Chicago than it is in most cities that were built after 1850, and certainly in North America.
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  #51483  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2022, 4:14 PM
emailspyro@gmail.com emailspyro@gmail.com is offline
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Originally Posted by Klippenstein View Post
Look. This is a Planned Manufacturing District. It has been studied and planned to hell and back. The city has decided many times over that it is important to have a diverse economy that includes manufacturing and industrial uses. Just like alleys, these create corridors that while they may not look pretty serve a vital function for the city. Many of these industrial uses might need access to the river to function.

If you want to read more about the cities most recent vision for this district, it's here. https://www.chicago.gov/city/en/dept...-corridor.html

Why is it that once a developer hands the city money, such as with Sterling Bay at LY or Omni on Goose island, the city is happy to cancel the manufacturing district? Double standards.
Since they went residential and high end for those developers and parcels, they might as well trash these manufacturing district plans. They are dated and the city itself ignored them.
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  #51484  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2022, 4:30 PM
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Tom In Chicago Tom In Chicago is offline
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Originally Posted by OrdoSeclorum View Post
Maybe the best pizza in the country is in some amazing spot in Phoenix. That doesn't mean that Phoenix is a good *pizza town*. The quality of a city's pizza is determined by the quality of the median slice and the population's standards. A crummy pizza joint should struggle to stay in business in a good pizza town.
I have no argument there. . . Chicago is clearly the best place in the US/world if you're a fan of pizza. . . however I would argue that although we are a city that made significant contributions to modern architecture, we haven't maintained that at a high level. . . not since the late 1980s. . . the most recent example I can surmise is when Daley insisted that Trump pay for the spire atop his namesake building as was originally designed. . .

Again, I'm hoping others will chime in to provide examples to convince me otherwise. . .

. . .
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  #51485  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2022, 5:12 PM
thegoatman thegoatman is offline
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I think Chicago is still in the top tier when it comes to architectural design/height/creativity...I mean you guys see whats going up in cities like Atlanta, Houston, Dallas, LA? Same ol stuff. Lots of the towers in the West Loop going up are pretty damn unique.

But today, I think New York is easily the architectural leader of America. For a variety of reasons, but yeah.

Anyway, I agree with what Spyro is saying. If some international firm gave the city billions of dollars to develop this "manufacturing district" all that "wE neEd a dIvErSe eCoNoMy oN tHiS iSlAnD" bs would go out the window lmao. Just think Goose Island isn't reaching its best potential today, its not the 20th century where we turned our back from the river, its modern day and we need to utilize waterfront to its full capability imo.

But this is happening either way, so can't dwell on it too much. Just glad to see all the other development occurring around the area.
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  #51486  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2022, 7:07 PM
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Originally Posted by OrdoSeclorum View Post
Maybe the best pizza in the country is in some amazing spot in Phoenix.
I too enjoy Bianco...

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-Chicago is the only major U.S. city that was designed.
How do you figure? Burnham certainly made his mark, but Chicago was really "designed" by the Northwest Ordinance that subdivided land into a grid, just like every other Midwest/Western city.

As far as other major US cities - Washington DC is far more "master planned" than Chicago. So is Detroit - both planned by Frenchmen.

The one area I will give Chicago the top spot is in maximizing our waterfront. It's really just a matter of scale - we have 18 miles of it. But lots of cities have big park corridors along their waterfronts - Milwaukee, NYC, Brooklyn, Boston, Washington, etc.
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  #51487  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2022, 7:42 PM
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Crane coming down today at HUGO.
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  #51488  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2022, 8:57 PM
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Originally Posted by emailspyro@gmail.com View Post
Why is it that once a developer hands the city money, such as with Sterling Bay at LY or Omni on Goose island, the city is happy to cancel the manufacturing district? Double standards.
Since they went residential and high end for those developers and parcels, they might as well trash these manufacturing district plans. They are dated and the city itself ignored them.
Since you refused to look at the corridor plan that I linked. I'll put the answer in your lap. All you need to do is read the maps.





Why assume like you know something without looking at the readily available information? I'll never understand.
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  #51489  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2022, 9:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Klippenstein View Post
Since you refused to look at the corridor plan that I linked. I'll put the answer in your lap. All you need to do is read the maps.

Why assume like you know something without looking at the readily available information? I'll never understand.
Without taking a position on the underlying argument, it's not nonsensical to argue that the planning is bad, is it? The zoning is an outcome of a political process, which is presumably influenced by lobbying by various groups. It seems possible that the outcome of the planning is a poor use of limited downtown land.

Again, I'm not trying to take a position. But the simple fact that this is how the city zoned things doesn't seem to prove it's a good use of land. I understand your argument that this is equivalent to having alleys -- shipping is maybe a utility. But we also don't put power plants on downtown riverfront property.
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  #51490  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2022, 10:12 PM
moorhosj1 moorhosj1 is offline
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Originally Posted by dewbs View Post
Again, I'm not trying to take a position. But the simple fact that this is how the city zoned things doesn't seem to prove it's a good use of land. I understand your argument that this is equivalent to having alleys -- shipping is maybe a utility. But we also don't put power plants on downtown riverfront property.
And this won't be downtown or on riverfront property, so no worries. That said, closer to downtown we do have a power station on riverfront property.

https://preservationchicago.org/chic...n-power-house/
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  #51491  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2022, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by dewbs View Post
Without taking a position on the underlying argument, it's not nonsensical to argue that the planning is bad, is it? The zoning is an outcome of a political process, which is presumably influenced by lobbying by various groups. It seems possible that the outcome of the planning is a poor use of limited downtown land.

Again, I'm not trying to take a position. But the simple fact that this is how the city zoned things doesn't seem to prove it's a good use of land. I understand your argument that this is equivalent to having alleys -- shipping is maybe a utility. But we also don't put power plants on downtown riverfront property.
I'd just rather not start arguing when it's already hard enough to get on the same page about some fundamental facts.

The point of citing the study is that the city continues to readjust the boundaries of the PMD to try to balance the needs of the existing industry and the demand to turn this sort of land into riverfront residential. I think it's smart. Eventually this may (and honestly probably will) be mostly residential and commercial rather than industrial, but the way the city is balancing the interests works to promote more concentrated and intentional growth.

There's plenty of area that needs to get filled in before I would worry about Goose Island. Sure, the island could be a really unique urban space for residential, but it also has terrible car access. Let's just slow down a little. Let our slow ass city create a functional transit corridor along the North Branch. And fill in the massive gaps in the urban fabric East of Goose Island... Then, in a couple decades, there will be a new amazing prime space to develop. It will be the new West Loop and we can all get excited about how fast everything is filling in because the land is so desirable. And newbies will be saying, "wow, I can't believe they never developed this land before. Crazy."
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  #51492  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2022, 10:31 PM
dewbs dewbs is offline
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Originally Posted by moorhosj1 View Post
And this won't be downtown or on riverfront property, so no worries. That said, closer to downtown we do have a power station on riverfront property.

https://preservationchicago.org/chic...n-power-house/
First, I'm not sure what it is that we learn about optimal location of utilities from the location of a power plant built in 1911.

Second, while this particular building may not be on the riverfront, the zoning map posted above showed that the restrictions -- e.g. no residential, no mixed-use -- apply on a significant stretch of riverfront property.
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  #51493  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2022, 10:36 PM
emailspyro@gmail.com emailspyro@gmail.com is offline
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Originally Posted by Klippenstein View Post
Since you refused to look at the corridor plan that I linked. I'll put the answer in your lap. All you need to do is read the maps.





Why assume like you know something without looking at the readily available information? I'll never understand.
I did look at it. Omni’s Halsted Point is approved for what is highlighted as the Manufacturing zone. The entire island is! So my point stands, they are negating their own plan. So not that this is clear, how do you feel about the Omni plan taking away manufacturers jobs?
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  #51494  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2022, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by emailspyro@gmail.com View Post
I did look at it. Omni’s Halsted Point is approved for what is highlighted as the Manufacturing zone. The entire island is! So my point stands, they are negating their own plan. So not that this is clear, how do you feel about the Omni plan taking away manufacturers jobs?
Look closer. My guess is they decided to allow residential where Onni is planning their development because it's located across from pretty upscale residential on the East Side of the river and planned development on the former tribune publishing plant land.

I'm not really sure what your complaint is here... They are slowly making the land available to be developed for residential. They still see the value in reserving the part of the PMD that is still in tact. They are balancing different interests. That's what a government is meant to do.
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  #51495  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2022, 1:31 AM
SamInTheLoop SamInTheLoop is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom In Chicago View Post
I have no argument there. . . Chicago is clearly the best place in the US/world if you're a fan of pizza. . .

. . .

That was a lightening quick 10 Pinocchios you racked up right there.
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  #51496  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2022, 1:36 AM
SamInTheLoop SamInTheLoop is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom In Chicago View Post
I'm not so sure this is true. . . with a few exceptions, Chicago hasn't built anything architecturally significant* here since the late 1980s. . .

I think what you're looking at is a legacy of Chicago architecture that existed in the 1900s but has long since been watered down and value engineered to oblivion. . .

I can't think of any project or firm that has really done exciting work here recently. . . Gang, Jahn, BKL, Hovey notwithstanding. . .

I'm surely not the last word on this subject, and would like to be proven wrong, but don't think I'll be convinced. . .

*By architecturally significant I'm referring to something that transcends "Chicago" architecture to become a driving force in other parts of the country/world. . .

. . .

But on the heart of that matter I agree with the spirit of your argument. No talented architects or architecture critics or academics elsewhere around the world are going to each other, "hey, you have to see the stuff they've put up in Chicago recently." There's good stuff, but clearly no critical mass of truly noteworthy design happening.
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  #51497  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2022, 5:01 AM
thegoatman thegoatman is offline
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  #51498  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2022, 7:15 AM
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
The one area I will give Chicago the top spot is in maximizing our waterfront. It's really just a matter of scale - we have 18 miles of it. But lots of cities have big park corridors along their waterfronts - Milwaukee, NYC, Brooklyn, Boston, Washington, etc.
Boston Harborwalk goes for 43 miles.
https://www.bostonharbornow.org/what...20each%20other.
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  #51499  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2022, 8:44 AM
rivernorthlurker rivernorthlurker is offline
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Originally Posted by SamInTheLoop View Post
But on the heart of that matter I agree with the spirit of your argument. No talented architects or architecture critics or academics elsewhere around the world are going to each other, "hey, you have to see the stuff they've put up in Chicago recently." There's good stuff, but clearly no critical mass of truly noteworthy design happening.
Yes there's still good stuff going on, but it's gonna be extremely hard to ever recreate the heydey of yesteryear which is almost an impossible standard. But of course things could be a bit better. Maybe if Chicago sees a substantial population influx and I do think that is realistic before the end of the decade.

Also when looking back on the past - it's easy to mentally condense all the 'best stuff' that occurred over a period of 40-50 years and so on a year by year basis things seem slower now. But statistically, the city is actually building at a faster pace than ever at the tall end (as is the entire world more recently).

St Regis is bar far the most architecturally significant (though imperfect) building recently. It's the tallest building in the world designed by a woman is subtantiail as well. Previously that was Aqua which was widely acclaimed outside Chicago as well. Going back further Millennium Park was a major win in the architectural/design/city arena.

The airport has potential hopefully, but I'm not getting my hopes up too much.

The Obama center is significant and a $1 billion project and will probably get a lot of attention architecturally once it nears completion.

Stuff like this is exciting as well and I'm really looking forward to it https://sterlingbay.com/sterling-bay...-chicago-fire/

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Sterling Bay To Develop Chicago’s Tallest Timber-Made Building Since Before The Great Chicago Fire
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Construction on 2100 N Southport is estimated to begin in early 2023. Architectural renderings of the building are available by request.
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  #51500  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2022, 1:54 PM
OrdoSeclorum OrdoSeclorum is offline
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Originally Posted by dewbs View Post
Without taking a position on the underlying argument, it's not nonsensical to argue that the planning is bad, is it? The zoning is an outcome of a political process, which is presumably influenced by lobbying by various groups. It seems possible that the outcome of the planning is a poor use of limited downtown land.
.
I don't know, but there's already a huge cement plant, a leather tannery and some sort of natural gas facility in that shrunken PMD. If I was a politician and was faced with the choice of effectively shutting down "Chicago's venerable Horween leather" and increasing the delivery time for every truckload of cement by 20 minutes; vs permitting the construction of apartments in an area that already has room for about 12,000 new dwellings in the re-zoned areas within a half mile... I'd definitely kick the can for a decade or two.
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