Philadelphia Transportation Thread

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

from that site, they threw in this little nugget at the end of the introduction:
"There are plans for extensions and new lines, including an extension to the Northeast. Another idea calls for extending west of 69th Street to the Philadelphia suburb of Broomall."
wut?

Lmao I mean technically expansions on the lines are very possible all we need is funding, so I wouldn't count the projects out.

[thoughtcriminal]

They plan to increase regional rail service to every 15 minutes, 7 days a week, in the next 25 years. As I've noted before, we will literally have people walking on the surface of Mars by then.
Also, septa has a massive funding gap.
https://www.phila.gov/2021-02-22-cit...sion-for-2045/

[Skintreesnail]

I agree that the timeline is disappointing, but at least it's something. It's also being phased, so hopefully the trunk will get there before then. Here's the full plan, lots of good stuff in there:

https://www.phila.gov/media/20210222...ansit-Plan.pdf

page 125:



page 132 starts a whole section on expansion plans. I never realized how serious they were about patco expansion to 40th street. I really wish they'd hold off on the $2b NHSL extension to KOP until some of this other stuff is focused on. I see they have the RR extension to Phoenixville on the map, which would also go by KOP, just not to the mall. I think the Bus system overhaul, trolley modernization and RR plan should be the focus, but that's me.

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

I agree that the timeline is disappointing, but at least it's something.

disappointing to say the least. not only will people have walked on Mars by then, but we may have *stopped* sending people to Mars by then. People will be asking, when are we going *back* to Mars by the time this plan is implemented, if ever.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

I agree that the timeline is disappointing, but at least it's something. It's also being phased, so hopefully the trunk will get there before then. Here's the full plan, lots of good stuff in there:

https://www.phila.gov/media/20210222...ansit-Plan.pdf

page 125:



page 132 starts a whole section on expansion plans. I never realized how serious they were about patco expansion to 40th street. I really wish they'd hold off on the $2b NHSL extension to KOP until some of this other stuff is focused on. I see they have the RR extension to Phoenixville on the map, which would also go by KOP, just not to the mall. I think the Bus system overhaul, trolley modernization and RR plan should be the focus, but that's me.

That's great! Thanks for posting. I love the expansion plans to King of Prussia, West Chester, Phoenixville and the Navy Yard. Probably the 4 most offensive underserved areas by transit in the metropolitan region to be honest. A lot of the infrastructure is already there to get to Phoenixville and West Chester. Those seem like no brainers.

I also like the BRT plans labeled on there for Roosevelt Blvd. The PATCO expansion to 40th Street is also a no brainer. That would be INCREDIBLY expensive though. I can't imagine that happening anytime soon.

[TonyTone]

Can we please discuss pages 134-142

City Lines Trolley

Possible Subway or EL east or west of the BSL

40th st Extension Patco

Delaware Ave LRT

MFL being extended

MFL station at 19th

Zoo station

City branch tunnel finally being used



Are we seriously about to see a new subway line in neighborhoods now. This is big news this could change the game in Philly not even including we have a time table for the current trolley modernization and a Regional Rail thats ran like the MFL/BSL.

Philly will automatically grow even faster if these projects are completed.

[Skintreesnail]

there's some good stuff in the report; it makes me hopeful, but it seems like SEPTA's priorities are elsewhere:
https://www.inquirer.com/transportat...-20210223.html

While I agree that traffic around KOP is a mess, there are so many more useful ideas in that OTIS report, to say nothing of the use of COVID relief funds. I really think that the KOP extension will end up a failure and would be a huge deterrent to funding other more useful expansion ideas. KOP would need to be completely rebuilt from the ground up to make people want to use the planned spur. There are no sidewalks, there are highways and on/off ramps all over the place, the planned spur doesn't stop by the town center they just built. Anyone using it would need to sit and wait for a shuttle bus to get to where they're going, unless it's the mall. The area already has two very pedestrian-friendly towns with transit access next door to KOP, one being a county seat in need of some attention. If businesses in the area are looking for something pedestrian friendly and leaders in the region are looking to reduce the traffic problems they're facing, they have two really good options. Encourage more development in Norristown and Conshohocken. Also, working with CSX or NS or whomever owns the old reading mainline to extend RR up the Schuylkill will be so much more effective and probably cost efficient. I get that a lot of people think the KOP spur is a great idea, and I did too at first, it's just the more I think about it the more it's obvious that it's not. The region needs to take advantage of the bones it has to grow into something that resembles a network of interconnected nodes that work together. RR and transit-oriented development can help a lot, but trying to make KOP into something it just isn't is a square peg in a round hole. Meanwhile, some of these towns took hundreds of years to develop the infrastructure they have today. Why start from scratch if you don't have to?

Anyways, it's nice seeing a vision put out there, and the OTIS report is that. Some great ideas in there that probably won't go anywhere, but ideas are at least a starting point. And some of the less flashy plans like trolley modernization, changing RR into something resembling more of a metro and the bus system revamp will unclog the arteries and breath more life into the overall system. It will make what we already have that much more impressive and will increase the desire to expand.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

there's some good stuff in the report; it makes me hopeful, but it seems like SEPTA's priorities are elsewhere:
https://www.inquirer.com/transportat...-20210223.html

While I agree that traffic around KOP is a mess, there are so many more useful ideas in that OTIS report, to say nothing of the use of COVID relief funds. I really think that the KOP extension will end up a failure and would be a huge deterrent to funding other more useful expansion ideas. KOP would need to be completely rebuilt from the ground up to make people want to use the planned spur. There are no sidewalks, there are highways and on/off ramps all over the place, the planned spur doesn't stop by the town center they just built. Anyone using it would need to sit and wait for a shuttle bus to get to where they're going, unless it's the mall. The area already has two very pedestrian-friendly towns with transit access next door to KOP, one being a county seat in need of some attention. If businesses in the area are looking for something pedestrian friendly and leaders in the region are looking to reduce the traffic problems they're facing, they have two really good options. Encourage more development in Norristown and Conshohocken. Also, working with CSX or NS or whomever owns the old reading mainline to extend RR up the Schuylkill will be so much more effective and probably cost efficient. I get that a lot of people think the KOP spur is a great idea, and I did too at first, it's just the more I think about it the more it's obvious that it's not. The region needs to take advantage of the bones it has to grow into something that resembles a network of interconnected nodes that work together. RR and transit-oriented development can help a lot, but trying to make KOP into something it just isn't is a square peg in a round hole. Meanwhile, some of these towns took hundreds of years to develop the infrastructure they have today. Why start from scratch if you don't have to?

Anyways, it's nice seeing a vision put out there, and the OTIS report is that. Some great ideas in there that probably won't go anywhere, but ideas are at least a starting point. And some of the less flashy plans like trolley modernization, changing RR into something resembling more of a metro and the bus system revamp will unclog the arteries and breath more life into the overall system. It will make what we already have that much more impressive and will increase the desire to expand.

I 100% agree 40 Million on the KOP Line is dumb. we have 1 billion in backlog maintenance.

I would put that 40 Million up to paint all the bus lanes Red, Bike lines, and Curb/beatifucation along with the new bustops.

How many of us Travel to KOP? The project is good but to put that first when we have Trolleys that need repair and transit that needs upgrades it just doesn't make sense.

Maybe @Mcgrath know why they are doing this.

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

Can we please discuss pages 134-142

City Lines Trolley

Possible Subway or EL east or west of the BSL

40th st Extension Patco

Delaware Ave LRT

MFL being extended

MFL station at 19th

Zoo station

City branch tunnel finally being used



Are we seriously about to see a new subway line in neighborhoods now. This is big news this could change the game in Philly not even including we have a time table for the current trolley modernization and a Regional Rail thats ran like the MFL/BSL.

Philly will automatically grow even faster if these projects are completed.

I was intrigued by the thought of having metro-style trains on the regional rail. does that mean switching to 3rd rail power instead of overhead catenary lines?
If so, and if they proceed with raising the RR platforms, they could achieve another one of their stated goals of expanding service to the northwest by turning the chestnut hill west line into a spur of the broad street line. that would provide subway service to an area they identify as being lacking in high capacity rail service. this was first proposed in the 1940s, and is still a good idea today. the sticking point would be how to configure the connection into the subway tunnel itself, but that doesn't seem to be insurmountable.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

I was intrigued by the thought of having metro-style trains on the regional rail. does that mean switching to 3rd rail power instead of overhead catenary lines?
If so, and if they proceed with raising the RR platforms, they could achieve another one of their stated goals of expanding service to the northwest by turning the chestnut hill west line into a spur of the broad street line. that would provide subway service to an area they identify as being lacking in high capacity rail service. this was first proposed in the 1940s, and is still a good idea today. the sticking point would be how to configure the connection into the subway tunnel itself, but that doesn't seem to be insurmountable.

Unless extending an existing third rail line, or wishing to be compatible with an existing line, third rail is by far the most expensive way to go today. Even in Europe they cringe when anyone suggests extending third rail lines. For example, Merseyside Rail near Liverpool. In the Wirral they looked at extending a third rail line to Wrexham in Whales, the price tag was around 270 million pounds vs 66 million pounds for an overhead catenary, or (?) million pounds using battery powered trains. Network Rail's conclusion was that full line electrification is only feasible if it could be delivered for less than £100,000 for each km per single track. The twin track line would be £200,000 per line km, giving a total figure of £8.7 million, which is far below the estimate of full line electrification of £66 million. The price tag to add batteries to a train varies significantly (?), but with just 5 DMU trains on that service, it should not be as much as 13 million pounds per train.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderlands_line

Yes, even in Europe, specifically the UK, they evaluate all the costs associated with providing public transit to determine if it is worth it. I wish public transit advocates in the USA took the same idea seriously.

Being not familiar with this particular project in Pennsylvania specifics, I'll just leave my comments to suggesting hanging an overhead catenary is far cheaper to implement than installing a third rail system.

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by electricron

Being not familiar with this particular project in Pennsylvania specifics, I'll just leave my comments to suggesting hanging an overhead catenary is far cheaper to implement than installing a third rail system.

here's the issue: the chestnut hill west line is an existing commuter rail line, powered by overhead caternary lines. I am suggesting (and it is not my original idea but one that's been around for decades) to make it a part of the Broad Street subway line, which is powered by a third rail. if we are getting new "metro style" trains, and raising the platforms, which this report suggests, my question is whether to extend the subway line's third rail to power the trains along the commuter rail portion. otherwise they'd have to run caternary lines in the subway, which I don't think is technically feasible. a third option is to have trains that can be powered by both systems, switching between caternary and third rail as necessary.

[Skintreesnail]

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

here's the issue: the chestnut hill west line is an existing commuter rail line, powered by overhead caternary lines. I am suggesting (and it is not my original idea but one that's been around for decades) to make it a part of the Broad Street subway line, which is powered by a third rail. if we are getting new "metro style" trains, and raising the platforms, which this report suggests, my question is whether to extend the subway line's third rail to power the trains along the commuter rail portion. otherwise they'd have to run caternary lines in the subway, which I don't think is technically feasible. a third option is to have trains that can be powered by both systems, switching between caternary and third rail as necessary.

I think there's a part in the report that alludes to this; I say keep it as part of the planned RR-metro conversion but move it off the NEC and onto the reading trunk line (there's currently delays waiting for NEC trains and speed restrictions, as well as the weird zigzag it does). I've seen ideas others have had for high-speed connections to the Norristown line that runs right next to it. Also, I think I read about metro north using multi power modes and running into lots of issues with upkeep and costs because of it. And aren't their issues with third rails exposed to the elements, as would be the case with CHW (thinking snow/icing)? It is an attractive idea though, having a BSL spur to NW as well as NE. I even think there were flyovers built for this purpose at some Broad street intersections. Not sure where though.

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

Also, I think I read about metro north using multi power modes and running into lots of issues with upkeep and costs because of it.

I'm sure there are lots of issues with a system like this.

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

And aren't their issues with third rails exposed to the elements, as would be the case with CHW (thinking snow/icing)?

No, the MFL uses 3rd rail, and it is exposed on the elevated portions. As are all elevated lines, like in Chicago.

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

It is an attractive idea though, having a BSL spur to NW as well as NE. I even think there were flyovers built for this purpose at some Broad street intersections. Not sure where though.

There's one junction at north broad station that was supposed to connect to the roosevelt boulevard line. Nothing for the CHW line though, that is the one issue I brought up in my original post about this. It's not impossible to do, but would be the costliest part of this I think.

[summersm343]

SEPTA intends to spend $40M in federal COVID-19 relief on proposed King of Prussia line



Read/view more here:
https://www.inquirer.com/transportat...3mCxGTzia8UfTI

[Delthayre]

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

There's one junction at north broad station that was supposed to connect to the roosevelt boulevard line. Nothing for the CHW line though, that is the one issue I brought up in my original post about this. It's not impossible to do, but would be the costliest part of this I think.

There is the Erie Ramp, which an article from Electric Railway Journal volume 73, issue # 6 suggests was built for possibly short-turning service. It connects to the local tracks, which would limit any line joined to the line here to being an additional local service or require a reconstruction of it to connect to the express tracks. The article also notes that there are trackways north of Grange Avenue, which could be used to extend the local or express tracks northward. These would, however, not be very useful for joining either Chestnut Hill line to the Broad Street Subway.

[M II A II R II K]

The city that we think has the most potential to improve with its transit system -- Philadelphia. Enjoy!

Starts @ 2:20


• Video Link

[Jawnadelphia]

Great article on how I-95 accelerated Wilmington's late 20th century decline, and the 2 year construction project beginning now. Get ready for delays!


https://whyy.org/articles/as-major-i...plit-the-city/

[Skintreesnail]

Originally Posted by M II A II R II K

[B]The city that we think has the most potential to improve with its transit system -- Philadelphia. Enjoy!

thanks for the spotlight on Philly. I agree with all your points; I'm pretty excited about the city plan that was released. I think the biggest improvements that can be made to SEPTA are the trolley modernization, bus network redesign and transforming regional rail into something more like a metro. To your points on station design, SEPTA's been slowly upgrading some of them over the past few years to have better amenities and raised platforms. It's been REALLY slow and I hope they can improve the pace since this would be pretty key in improving the train frequency. We have some pretty amazing legacy stations along the regional rail lines that were inherited from the Pennsylvania railroad and reading. It seems like SEPTA has been improving some of these as well, which is great since the buildings are beautiful; they just need some long overdue renovations in some cases and raised platforms. I think the Allen Lane station was one of the ones recently renovated, where they added raised platforms and redid the Victorian pedestrian crossing:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Lane_station

There are plenty that are still just a curb, but there are plans are in the pipeline for at least some of these. And if we ever extend service back out to reading, there are a bunch of old stations waiting to be reused. And for the vehicles, there was some federal regulation that kind of kept us stuck on the bulky trainsets that was recently lifted, so the city plan specifies modern European-style trainsets for the future, which would be great.

I think I'm most excited about the trolley modernization and bus redesign though since I use them the most. Really looking forward for more on both; trolley modernization is in planning right now and something is supposed to be released this year I think. They keep showing renderings of articulated vehicles that look similar to the flexity, which would be nice.

[TonyTone]

Didn't the City transit plan have the timetable for the Trolley Modernization?

it was like 2025 when they start construction or something.

[Skintreesnail]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

Didn't the City transit plan have the timetable for the Trolley Modernization?

it was like 2025 when they start construction or something.

yeah, looks like on page 113; start at 2025 and end 2034