Flagship state university towns

[pip]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Growing up in Chicagoland, there were plenty of kids from my graduating highschool class who went to public universities in other states for undergrad: Michigan, Wisconsin, Purdue, Iowa, even some further afield places like Texas, Virginia, North Carolina, etc.

Same experience growing up in the Boston area. Not necessarily the same schools as you experienced but students spread out all over in other state university's

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

Aside from Nebraska and Ohio State*, the Big Ten schools are all academically stellar.

*I know they're ranked somewhere in the 50s or 60s in USNWR but c'mon, that's a football factory first and school second. They let me take classes there for chrissake.

I know that talking shit about your childhood home state is your favorite pastime, but your OSU put-down here needs some correcting.

It might not have the same "public Ivy" level of reputation like Ann Arbor, but OSU is still a fairly well respected university, academically speaking, particularly within the regional context of the Midwest.

Midwest universities ranked in the top 100 by USNWR:
(Public schools in bold)

#9. Northwestern University - evanston
#12. University of Chicago - chicago
#20. University of Notre Dame - south bend
#21. University of Michigan - ann arbor
#24. Washington University - st. louis
#35. University of Illinois - champaign
#35. University of Wisconsin - madison
#43. Ohio State University - columbus
#43. Purdue University - west lafayette
#53. Case Western Reserve University - cleveland
#53. University of Minnesota - minneapolis
#60. Michigan State University - east lansing
#73. Indiana University - bloomington
#82. University of Illinois Chicago - chicago
#86. Marquette University - milwaukee
#93. University of Iowa - iowa city
#98. Illinois Institute of Technology - chicago

[dave8721]

Originally Posted by pj3000

True, I was drunk when I typed my last post on the topic, so pay it no heed.

I think that Carnegie Mellon has much more of a national "brand" now than when I was in HS (early 90s), due to this whole computers/internet stuff, but I'm definitely not one of the people who think everyone knows about Carnegie Mellon. It's a nerdy-artsy school... and unless someone's really into drama, architecture/design, or computers/robotics, most people aren't going to be too familiar with it.



Sure, I should've included other regional states, like CT, rather than just NY and northern PA, who would be familiar with the SUNY system. I grew up in PA only about 45 miles from SUNY-Fredonia and SUNY-Jamestown, and had friends and relatives who attended those schools, as well as UB, Potsdam, Geneseo, ESF, Cortland, and UAlbany.

But here in Pittsburgh or in Philly, it seems that they're almost completely foreign... which is geographically understandable.



Yeah, makes sense.



Population boom and subsequent funding got pumped into both UF and FSU (as well as all Florida public unbiversities) in the last 20 years, especially last 10.

Programs really expanded and they've attracted a lot of professors and researchers from northern schools. USF, UCF, FIU, and FAU have also made huge advances very recently. These 4 schools have over 200k students combined now!!!

Exactly. Florida has ~22 million residents now and UF is the premiere (public) school in the state. By shear numbers it will get to be selective with its admittance. Back when I was applying to schools in 1996, I had UF has my backup/safety school if my top choices Boston U or Georgetown didn't work out (financially). I ended up going to BU. Now UF is ranked #28 in the US and BU is #43 per USNews.

[Buckeye Native 001]

I stand corrected. I legit thought Michigan, Illinois and Wisconsin were all in the Top 20 overall of USNWR rankings.

Ohio State is a good school, I'm just amused/shocked they let me enroll there for some graduate classes.

[Docere]

Given their ridiculous governor, I am all for improved higher education in Florida.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Originally Posted by Docere

Geographic origin of undergrads (with states with at least 5% representation).
Arizona

In-state 59.5%
California 17.5%

Can't quantify this, but I live in a college town and there is a huge number of college aged people here from California who apparently go to Northern Arizona for a few years and then move back to California to transfer to a UC or Cal State because they're initially rejected straight out of high school.

And while both the University of Arizona and Arizona State for years had relatively lax admission standards, both schools (especially Arizona State) are a hell of a lot better regarded academically now than 20 years ago. Whatever progress in livening up Downtown Phoenix is due in part to Arizona State opening up a campus downtown. The downtown area might not look like much to most people here, but considering what Downtown Phoenix looked like (ghost town) prior to the 2000s, its huge progress.

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

Can't quantify this, but I live in a college town and there is a huge number of college aged people here from California who apparently go to Northern Arizona for a few years and then move back to California to transfer to a UC or Cal State because they're initially rejected straight out of high school.

Hmm, that doesn't make sense to me, because that's what California community colleges are for. In fact, when I was younger, it was policy to give CA community college transfers priority over high school graduates for admission to UC/Cal State.

And, back then, California community colleges were only like 8 dollars per unit, and then it was raised to 11 dollars per unit during the 1990s and into the early two-thousand aughts--my partner and I took an Arabic class for one semester at Pasadena City College and it was cheap, but by then it was like 24 or 25 bucks a unit---we took the class in 2005... This is all in-state tuition, of course. There are foreign students that go to community college too, and they pay the international student rate, but I don't know how much more that would be vs. in-state and out-of-state tuition.

I don't know how much it costs now, but I don't doubt that community colleges in California are still relatively cheap.

[Buckeye Native 001]

They are, but there is this pervasive (and wrong) mentality that community colleges (everywhere, not just California) are for kids who aren't smart enough to get into universities right out of high school. Had I the resources, I'd pour as much money as possible into funding community colleges and trade schools.

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

They are, but there is this pervasive (and wrong) mentality that community colleges (everywhere, not just California) are for kids who aren't smart enough to get into universities right out of high school. Had I the resources, I'd pour as much money as possible into funding community colleges and trade schools.

I totally agree. Community colleges and trade schools are very beneficial.

Fairly recently, I believe some California community colleges are now offering bachelors degrees in certain vocational fields...

I found the link: https://www.cccco.edu/About-Us/Chanc...Degree-Program

[Buckeye Native 001]

Maricopa County community colleges are doing something similar.

[craigs]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Take a closer look at 1960's history. Many Ivy League institutions were in mass turmoil. That era was crazy.

Columbia was essentially taken over/shut down for a semester, in an armed student uprising so traumatic, that the school didn't really recover for 30-40 years. To this day, many alums won't participate/contribute due to '68. No major U.S. institution was more rocked by that era than Columbia. It was student v. student, for months. Hippies vs. preps, attacking via underground tunnels that snake thru campus.

Cornell, in 1969, had a Black Panther-led armed student takeover. Harvard, also in 1969, had an SDS takeover of the administration building, that led to a huge melee and hundreds of injuries. Princeton and Dartmouth, two institutions definitely not known for radicalism, had violent shutdowns soon thereafter.

You are not wrong in pointing to Vietnam-era turmoil on those campuses. There was similar turmoil on hundreds of campuses in those years. That said, UC Berkeley was impacted far more profoundly than any other major university. It was roiled by disruptive student protests years before the others, beginning in 1964. The Free Speech Movement was the original US mid-century student movement, and other colleges' student and campus anti-war movements followed its lead. By 1969, with street warfare raging on and around the campus, Governor Ronald Reagan had the California National Guard deploy tear gas from helicopters in order to shut the campus down.

Originally Posted by Crawford

I think it's more a numbers game than an academic quality/reputation game. Not saying UF isn't a good institution, but it's more due to demographics and the business rules behind rankings.

Florida has an exploding student population, while most states have stagnant student populations. UF is the most selective, flagship institution. The rankings agencies use selectivity as the biggest criteria.

It's likely harder for a Floridian to get into UF than for a Michigander to get into UM. But that doesn't mean UF is generally considered better, or even comparable. Florida has more than twice the HS grads of MI, when it used to have a small fraction of Michigan's HS grads. Michigan's stagnant student population aids in-state HS seniors somewhat. If Michigan were a booming state, a lower share of kids would have a shot, even with in-state advantages.

The UCs are another good example. Even the less prestigious UCs have really low acceptance rates. Giant state, huge population of high achieving students, lots of Asians, Jews, immigrant groups correlated with academic success. Not many privates, so everyone's applying to UCs.

That is completely untrue about the US News and World Report rankings. USNWR lists its criteria, and selectivity or acceptance rates are not considered at all. The number of applicants plays no part in their rankings, no matter how much you feel they do. The less prestigious UCs are ranked well because they perform well on the listed criteria.

[edale]

Originally Posted by craigs

You are not wrong in pointing to Vietnam-era turmoil on those campuses. There was similar turmoil on hundreds of campuses in those years. That said, UC Berkeley was impacted far more profoundly than any other major university. It was roiled by disruptive student protests years before the others, beginning in 1964. The Free Speech Movement was the original US mid-century student movement, and other colleges' student and campus anti-war movements followed its lead. By 1969, with street warfare raging on and around the campus, Governor Ronald Reagan had the California National Guard deploy tear gas from helicopters in order to shut the campus down.

More than Kent State? Pretty sure the National Guard shooting and killing a bunch of students is worse than getting tear gassed.

I do understand, however, that Berkeley, San Francisco, and Oakland were obviously incredibly important centers of protest and liberation movements in the 60s. From the aforementioned Berkeley free speech movement, to the hippies and summer of love in SF, to the founding of the Black Panthers in Oakland, the Bay Area was the undisputed center of counterculture in the 60s.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by craigs

That is completely untrue about the US News and World Report rankings. USNWR lists its criteria, and selectivity or acceptance rates are not considered at all. The number of applicants plays no part in their rankings, no matter how much you feel they do. The less prestigious UCs are ranked well because they perform well on the listed criteria.

I never mentioned USNWR, but it appears they're weighting relative changes in selectivity. Not directly, like the other rankings, but standardized tests, grad rate, earnings, etc. is a proxy for selectivity. And they used relative HS class standing up until 2023. That's most definitely selectivity. A higher applicant pool will obviously mean a higher share of highly ranked students accepted. If the rankings are stable-ish from past years, they're likely just playing a game where they're using holistic weights instead of the common ones.

Their rankings methodology, at face value, is actually pretty dumb. No high school senior deciding between offers at highly ranked schools is gonna be "But what's the grad rate at Berkeley, huh? How are the faculty salaries?" They're considering program strengths, faculty quality/access, cultural fit, affordability, etc. But if they found the correct weights to reflect this, it's all good.

Also, are there schools that no longer allow you to submit assessments? It appears so, given they have a methodology for no SAT-ACT. How are they selecting students? Just grades/class rank? That sounds like an admissions nightmare. There's nothing remotely standardized about grades/class rank. How does an applicant from Peru apply to such a school without the SAT?

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by edale

More than Kent State? Pretty sure the National Guard shooting and killing a bunch of students is worse than getting tear gassed.

Yeah, I was gonna say that the National Guard gunning down 9 students, and killing four, certainly had the most profound impact at a major university in that era.

I don’t seem to recall the CSNY protest song about the tear-gassing of the Berkeley students.

[Crawford]

I'm sure the Kent State massacre gave the school a bad name, but I don't see how it would have a long term impact on the institutional foundations.

The Kent State admin wasn't complicit in the killings, I don't think. The students weren't complicit. Kent State is probably the biggest college-related news story from that era, but I don't think it tore the institution apart.

It's likely more like the UT tower shooting, back in the 60's. Horrible and huge news, but not an indictment of UT. In a sick way, might even bring alums and students together, and strengthen institutional loyalty.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I'm sure the Kent State massacre gave the school a bad name, but I don't see how it would have a long term impact on the institutional foundations.

The Kent State admin wasn't complicit in the killings, I don't think. The students weren't complicit. Kent State is probably the biggest college-related news story from that era, but I don't think it tore the institution apart.

It's likely more like the UT tower shooting, back in the 60's. Horrible and huge news, but not an indictment of UT. In a sick way, might even bring alums and students together, and strengthen institutional loyalty.

I think you need a little history refresher; read about the whole incident.

There were literally weeks of civil unrest on campus and in the town leading up to it, with SDS protests, national radical firebrand speakers, rioting, huge fights, destruction of businesses/looting, etc. The campus ROTC building was burnt to the ground, for gods sake.

The Kent mayor had declared a state of emergency and martial law was basically enforced, with the National Guard being called in. The University police were present with the National Guardsmen tear-gassing and beating up students.

“The Kent State Massacre” is in our national vocabulary for a reason.

EDIT: It definitely tore the university apart and had lasting implications for the school, and obviously was the watershed event that chartered in a new era of polarization nationally. I understand your point about it not being impactful on the universitiy's foundations long-term... but I think it really did in fact have that effect. The university has even tried to rebrand itself as just "Kent" in attempt to somewhat distance themselves from the affiliation with the event.

[austlar1]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Take a closer look at 1960's history. Many Ivy League institutions were in mass turmoil. That era was crazy.

Columbia was essentially taken over/shut down for a semester, in an armed student uprising so traumatic, that the school didn't really recover for 30-40 years. To this day, many alums won't participate/contribute due to '68. No major U.S. institution was more rocked by that era than Columbia. It was student v. student, for months. Hippies vs. preps, attacking via underground tunnels that snake thru campus.

Cornell, in 1969, had a Black Panther-led armed student takeover. Harvard, also in 1969, had an SDS takeover of the administration building, that led to a huge melee and hundreds of injuries. Princeton and Dartmouth, two institutions definitely not known for radicalism, had violent shutdowns soon thereafter.

I was on campus at Columbia during the 1968 upheaval with a very up close view of the proceedings, since I was employed at the time in the Graduate Faculties Admissions Office which was then housed in the ground floor (basement) of Low Library. I was a temporary college dropout (Tulane) working as the mail-boy (actual job title) in an office directly below Columbia president Grayson Kirk's suite of offices on the floor above. Our windows were covered with the iron window grates (https://www.google.com/search?q=stud...xWomyFq63utm8M) that made it so easy for occupying students (and assorted militants of various stripes) to enter and exit the offices above. The occupying students et.al, were allowed to do so for maybe a week or longer before being forcibly removed. Our offices down below did not cease operations during the entire student occupation. I don't recall any pitched battles between hippies and preps on campus. The preppy presence on campus was very muted in 1968, although I am sure it existed. There was more tension between SDS/Hippies and the Black militant organizations. In spite of the occupation taking place at the height of Viet Nam protests, the initial spark for the uprising at Columbia centered around Columbia's ham-fisted efforts to build a student gym facility in Morningside Park against the wishes of the Harlem community that used the park. The student uprising was often a light-hearted affair and included an afternoon concert in the quad between Low Library and Butler Library by The Grateful Dead. That's not to say there was no violence, and there were sporadic intense clashes between students and police. There were instances of injuries arising from these clashes, including one student bystander who was shot in the chest by police and one police officer partially paralyzed in a scuffle. Fortunately there were no deaths, and little resistance was made when police finally cleared out the occupying protesters.

1968 was such an eventful year. First LBJ announces he won't seek re-election. Next MLK is assassinated in Memphis, and many US cities are swept up in destructive rioting. A few weeks later the student uprising at Columbia gets underway at the same time students are rioting elsewhere in the US and in Europe. In early June, RFK is gunned down in LA. Two months after RFK was killed, there were the bloody riots at the Democratic convention in Chicago. I felt like I had a front row seat to some very historic events

[craigs]

Kent State made the news in 1970 (six years after Berkeley first blew up) because the Ohio National Guard opened fire on student anti-war protesters and killed four people on May 4, 1970. But it was not the only college where students were killed by authorities (South Carolina's Orangeburg campus in 1968 and UC Berkeley in 1969 come to mind).

The history of early May 1970 in the US is a really fascinating and mostly unknown story. After Nixon announced his expansion of the Vietnam war into Cambodia, students on over 400 college campuses went on strike, the largest such action in America before or since. That's when Kent State students protested and were shot. After that, there were protests, sit-ins, takeovers, riots, bombings, and widespread arson (especially against campus ROTC buildings) on campuses and in city centers nationwide. Kent State had the highest death toll, but the chaos there was not unique at that time. Governor Reagan shut down every public college and university in the state one day after Kent State happened. That also happened in numerous other campuses throughout the country, and many stayed closed for the academic year because authorities didn't want students gathering and organizing. "Kent State" specifically refers to four dead protesters, but more generally it is shorthand for what happened on just about every campus at that time. The widespread chaos in the aftermath of Kent State was comparable to what we saw in the US in May and June of 2020.

[Steely Dan]

"We're finally on our own."


Perhaps my absolute favorite single line of lyrics of all time.

5 little words, but they said EVERYTHING.

Horrible tragedy; brilliant song.

Art can be weird like that

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

"We're finally on our own."


Perhaps my absolute favorite single line of lyrics of all time.

5 little words, but they said EVERYTHING.

Horrible tragedy; brilliant song.

Art can be weird like that

Yeah, a very simple song lyrically, but profoud, given the atmosphere and events of a period of remarkable national unrest, violence, and assassinations. Soundtrack of the era.

Both of my parents graduated from college in spring 1967... it was basically still the 1950s era marked by an ethos of the propriety, conservatism, and authority of the "old guard". Within a year, EVERYTHING changed. Just a major generational, and accompanying, social-ideological churn.

I hear my dad talk about that period and how there was a simmering, a lit fuse, burning a bit faster throughout the mid 60s until it reached the powder keg in 1968. He was an inner-city high school teacher and was a witness to and compnent of the microcosm of society in the classroom/school every day. The stories he has of riots, police brutality, and the overall struggle between a younger, diverse, freer-thinking generation clashing with the white, crew cut, "fall-in-line" generation are totally wild. It's very easy to see the parallels with where we are at as a society right now.

My aunt and uncle were students at Kent State at the time, and were there, running from the National Guard. To hear them talk about it is amazing. There was a very active SDS chapter on campus and also a high percentage of ROTC members there on the GI bill. Add in the fact that it was a highly blue-collar town/region, which hated the "hippies"... and you had the makings of a disaster waiting to happen. It truly was a massacre of unarmed kids by armed kids, who were sent there by old men who were set on shutting people up who didn't "fall in line".

Absolutely pitiful moment in our history.