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  #421  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2023, 7:37 PM
Ottawacurious Ottawacurious is online now
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If we propose that, we could also propose 80 Wellington street (PMO office & privy council building across from Parliament Hill) or the NRC at 100 Sussex. Beautiful big building that could readily do double duty.
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  #422  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2023, 7:42 PM
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Now there's a nice idea. They could then give away the 24 Sussex site for an affordable housing project.
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  #423  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2023, 8:14 PM
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Originally Posted by JM1 View Post
Could the mile circle be a potential location for the PM residence? Probably not… because the Kettle Island bridge will make too much noise.
It's a big empty grass field, and the next embassies are building built along the Ottawa River Parkway instead of there. And it's not THAT close to Kettle Island fantasy bridge. About half a kilometer away.

I'd advocate for that site, if 24 Sussex truly is not feasible.

The other sites proposed along the river would mean the loss of a lot of trees. We're losing enough with forest fires without cutting a bunch down for an official residence. I'll advocate for the loss of a grass field over a wooded area any day.
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  #424  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2023, 8:38 PM
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Could the mile circle be a potential location for the PM residence? Probably not… because the Kettle Island bridge will make too much noise.
It's a big empty grass field, and the next embassies are building built along the Ottawa River Parkway instead of there. And it's not THAT close to Kettle Island fantasy bridge. About half a kilometer away.

I'd advocate for that site, if 24 Sussex truly is not feasible.
It has already been ruled-out:

Quote:
The government also has evaluated a site near the RCMP Musical Ride training centre to the east of Rockcliffe Park. Sources said the flat terrain there is more visible from the road and the site would require fencing that would make it look more like a fortress.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/24-...tawa-1.6949710
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  #425  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2023, 10:39 PM
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Don't light a match to 24 Sussex just yet
Where will we house our prime ministers, and what do we do with 24 Sussex? The problems should be dealt with separately.

Bruce Deachman, Ottawa Citizen
Published Aug 30, 2023 • 4 minute read


You don’t often get such a spirited discussion about public housing, but I guess when the address is 24 Sussex Drive, people pay attention.

We’ve heard in recent days that the 155-year-old building and official residence of the prime minister may have already sheltered its last PM — Stephen Harper, who vacated the premises in 2015 — and that a new residence needs to be found.

Perhaps so, but we shouldn’t be too quick to light a match to the building, which, despite its present condition, is an important part of Ottawa’s and Canada’s history.

The estimated cost to bring the building up to scratch, though, has been tagged by the National Capital Commission at $36.6 million. And that’s likely a conservative figure, given that it doesn’t include the millions of dollars in security upgrades that would also be required to address the risk assessments identified by the RCMP. The property is simply too small, and the house too close to the road and Ottawa River, to keep secure.

Other sites are now reportedly being considered for a new official residence for the PM. When I asked an NCC spokesperson on Wednesday if there was any documentation available on that, I was told they had “nothing public.”

It seems quite possible that 24 Sussex, almost 75 years after becoming the PM’s official residence, will cease serving in that role very much as it started: with a PM who didn’t want to live there. Louis St. Laurent, who lived in the Roxborough Apartments on Laurier Avenue, only reluctantly agreed to move into 24 Sussex in 1951 after it was made the PM’s official residence, insisting that he continue to pay rent. Justin Trudeau, meanwhile, hasn’t lived at 24 Sussex since he was a youngster learning the trade at his father’s knee.

This raises two dilemmas: where to house our prime ministers, and what to do with 24 Sussex? The problems should be dealt with separately, with a safe home for the PM the first priority.

Since his 2015 election, Prime Minister Trudeau II has been living at Rideau Cottage, a 22-room house on the grounds of Rideau Hall that, like 24 Sussex, is more than 150 years old, lacking in security features to deal with current threats, and simply too small to accommodate many of the functions that a G7 leader typically hosts. Admittedly, there’s something almost cute about it in that stereotypically modest and very Canadian way — like the PM is out glamping. And maybe it suits the current tenant, but it’s hardly a long-term solution befitting a world leader.

Similarly, we can’t expect a PM to live in a hotel, as R.B. Bennett did in the early 1930s, when he called a suite at the Chateau Laurier home. “Will you be staying just the four years, sir, or eight?”

One site reportedly under consideration to replace 24 Sussex is in Rockcliffe Park, immediately north and east of 24 Sussex. Notwithstanding that it would remove land from the public realm, the site makes sense in that a larger parcel than 24 Sussex could be used, making it easier to secure and open to easily building a new residence.

It’s also isolated from the neighbours, which would, again, aid in the security aspect, but also lessen the burden on area residents whose initial enthusiasm over living beside the PM might wane after the umpteenth motorcade temporarily imprisons them in their homes, or worse, anytime they hear strange noises at night.

Once the issue of the prime minister’s permanent home is dealt with, the debate over whether to tear down 24 Sussex or not can follow. I’d argue that some part of the house — the shell, at least — ought to be saved and reused.

It was deemed a Classified Federal Heritage Building — the higher of two possible historic designations by the Federal Heritage Buildings Review Office — in 1986, owing to its association with (then) six prime ministers, its status as a nationally known landmark, and the impact that the house and grounds have on the area.

None of that has changed, except that the list of PMs who lived there got longer. But what message does it send if it’s allowed to be torn down? Can any property designated as heritage be allowed to fall into such a state of disrepair that it is essentially demolished by neglect? And if so, what’s to prevent any developer from doing the same with a historic church or school of local significance, say?

When 24 Sussex was expropriated in 1943, the government cited fears that it might “become commercialized” if it didn’t act. Prime Minister Mackenzie King added that expropriation was necessary to prevent its acquisition “for undesirable uses.”

So let’s assume that commercial and undesirable uses are still off the table.

My hope that the building might be used for the previously-announced-but-subsequently-cancelled Portrait Gallery of Canada was dashed on Wednesday when gallery board vice-chair and former Privy Council Clerk Michael Wernick told me that it just wouldn’t be practical.

Perhaps, then, the building could be sold and turned into an embassy, which wouldn’t be at all out of keeping for the area.

A better idea, though, would be if the building and grounds were accessible to the Canadians who paid for their upkeep — what there was, anyway — all these years. Perhaps the outer walls of the building could simply be left, like the ruins at Mackenzie King Estate in Gatineau Park, for the public to walk among, and reflect.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...ussex-just-yet
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  #426  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2023, 2:55 AM
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You are arguing without taking into account that what the security folks say, generally goes.
PMs ignore security advice all of the time. Otherwise they couldn’t campaign or parent. Usually security is a crutch to justify something expensive.
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  #427  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2023, 2:58 AM
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I think statements like the following suggest that staying at Rideau Cottage permanently is a non-starter:
Yet the PM has been living there for 8 years. There is a good chance the next PM will live there. Even if they build a hardened bunker in the middle of nowhere it will take a decade to build so Rideau Cottage would have been used for 20 years.
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  #428  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2023, 3:20 AM
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Security concerns might finally solve the 24 Sussex conundrum
Poilievre's pointed comments about 'mansions' explain why the house is in such an awful state

Aaron Wherry · CBC News
Posted: Aug 30, 2023 2:08 PM EDT | Last Updated: 9 hours ago


To understand why successive governments allowed 24 Sussex to fall into a miserable state of disrepair — and why Justin Trudeau has spent nearly eight years avoiding a decision on whether to rebuild or replace what used to be the prime minister's official residence — one need only consider what Conservative Leader Pierre Poilievre had to say about the matter Tuesday.

"The prime minister has had one mansion where his food is cooked, another mansion where he lives, a third mansion on a lake — and that wasn't enough for him, so he built a second lakefront mansion with our money at Harrington Lake," Poilievre said when asked about Radio-Canada's latest reporting on the fate of 24 Sussex. "He's been so focused on building mansions for himself that he's forgotten to get homes built for hard-working Canadians."

There's a lot to unpack in those comments.

The first "mansion" Poilievre refers to is 24 Sussex. Though the house itself is more or less uninhabitable, staff have been using 24 Sussex's kitchen to prepare meals for the prime minister and his family — just as staff have been doing for every prime minister since 1951.

The second mansion is Rideau Cottage, a building on the grounds of Rideau Hall that Trudeau and his family have been living in because of 24 Sussex's dire state (it was reported earlier this year that the walls of 24 Sussex are full of rodent carcasses).

The third mansion is at Harrington Lake outside Ottawa, a residence that has been used by prime ministers since 1959.

Poilievre's comment about a "second lakefront mansion" seems to refer to an old guest house on the property at Harrington Lake that the National Capital Commission, a federal Crown corporation, decided to rebuild in 2018. It was reported in 2020 that the Trudeau family was using the reconstructed building while repairs were being made to the main residence at Harrington Lake.

Perhaps Poilievre would have thrown himself in front of the NCC's contractors to keep that guest house from being rebuilt. But if the Conservative leader became prime minister tomorrow, he would inherit all of the same "mansions."

For the time being, he lives in his own "mansion" — Stornoway, the official residence reserved for the leader of the Official Opposition.

Poilievre still managed to put his finger on what has discouraged successive prime ministers from putting any real effort or resources toward maintaining, let alone improving, the places they officially call home. For Trudeau — whose privileged upbringing has always been a potential point of vulnerability — the politics of 24 Sussex are particularly fraught.

Poilievre's comments also show the timing of the current discussion about repairing or replacing the official residence could not be worse — with widespread anxiety about the cost of housing in Canada and opposition parties blaming the Trudeau government for the problem. If ever there was a time to do something about 24 Sussex, this surely isn't it.

But Tuesday's report by Radio-Canada's Daniel Leblanc raises an issue that might go beyond partisanship: the security and safety of the prime minister and his or her family.

The prime minister's security is not an abstract source of concern. A heavily armed man rammed through the gates of Rideau Hall in 2020. That same year, it was reported that the RCMP had opened 130 files on threats made against Trudeau and his ministers in the previous six months, up from 100 files opened in the first six months of 2019.

If 24 Sussex or Rideau Cottage are insufficiently secure — as Leblanc's sources suggest — the arguments in favour of building a new house may become much more straightforward.

There would still be some haggling, of course. Poilievre suggested on Tuesday that he didn't think a new residence would need space to host official receptions. He said the residence should be a "very basic, secure place where a prime minister can live safely."

How "very basic" would we like to get? Should the prime minister get hardwood floors or will laminate suffice? Would marble countertops be too elitist? What about an ensuite bathroom? Or a walk-in closet?

These are obviously very important questions deserving a long national conversation.

But an emphasis on security might be the thread that finally pulls the question of the prime minister's residence out of this political morass.

Still, Trudeau might not want to sign off on a plan for a new house unless or until his government has much more to say for itself on the question of making housing more affordable for everyone who's not the prime minister.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/24-...erry-1.6952098
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  #429  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2023, 4:35 PM
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Poilievre making a valuable contribution to the conversation, as always.
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  #430  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2023, 4:39 PM
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You are arguing without taking into account that what the security folks say, generally goes.
When you're a hammer, everything's a nail.

Even more so in the security and fear industry, and even even more so in this town, where Jim Watson hypothesized about the terrorists using the LRT tunnel to blow up PMO and no one called him out on how crap that is.
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  #431  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2023, 4:41 PM
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Maybe slightly off-topic, since it’s obviously a different context, but while it isn’t necessarily isolated, the White House is definitely a fortified bunker (including an actually nuclear bunker below it). It has bullet proof glass, roof-mounted radar, infrared cameras covering the entire perimeter, and surface-to-air missiles. I’m sure there’s other protection that isn’t publicized.
Yes, but it isn't outwardly, visually, and symbolically a bunker, at least not until you see the thing and its post-9/11 security apparatus in the flesh.

A Prime Ministerial residence cloistered away, out of sight, off the urban grid and away from the fabric of the capital and the people? No. Bad, bad look.
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  #432  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2023, 5:20 PM
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A Prime Ministerial residence cloistered away, out of sight, off the urban grid and away from the fabric of the capital and the people? No. Bad, bad look.
Agreed, and arguably out of step with almost every other G20 country.
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  #433  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2023, 5:51 PM
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No one tell Canadian officials about the official residences of Israel.
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  #434  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2023, 6:29 PM
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No one tell Canadian officials about the official residences of Israel.
Why, what's the deal?
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  #435  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2023, 7:21 PM
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Why, what's the deal?
They are both in built-up areas of Jerusalem without massive setbacks or cloistering. There's a street perimeter around the PM residence, not unlike the arrangement for 10 Downing Street in the UK.

And if its physical or visual barriers that we need, uniquely, for some reason, in Ottawa, the capital of Canada, the New Zealand example offers an object lesson in the clever application of technology to that problem.

(The technology is trees.)
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  #436  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2023, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
They are both in built-up areas of Jerusalem without massive setbacks or cloistering. There's a street perimeter around the PM residence, not unlike the arrangement for 10 Downing Street in the UK.

And if its physical or visual barriers that we need, uniquely, for some reason, in Ottawa, the capital of Canada, the New Zealand example offers an object lesson in the clever application of technology to that problem.

(The technology is trees.)
The security "experts" think Ottawa is the Baghdad green zone.
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  #437  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2023, 11:06 AM
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The security "experts" think Ottawa is the Baghdad green zone.
To be fair to the security "experts" (whose services I've had to use when planning sensitive events around the NCR), they aren't usually overly fastidious and alarmist. They provide honest threat assessments with a range. It's upto the government what level of risk they want to accept. I doubt what is said about 24 Sussex would be any different than what is said about 1600 Pennsylvania or 10 Downing St. They can be reached by drones. Riots could overwhelm the perimeter. Etc. Common security problems for any high value premises. Only in Canada, these become convenient excuse to sidestep controversial decisions. That speaks more to political dysfunction than anything about our security experts.
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  #438  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2023, 1:42 PM
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Battle over 24 Sussex's future heats up with a new plan to save run-down residence
Preservationists say it would be 'callous' to destroy heritage home

John Paul Tasker · CBC News
Posted: Sep 01, 2023 4:00 AM EDT | Last Updated: 6 hours ago




As part of an effort to save 24 Sussex Drive for future prime ministers, a group of heritage-minded construction industry figures has come forward with a plan to restore the dilapidated residence.

Historic Ottawa Development Inc. (HODI) — a non-profit organization that includes noted architects, conservationists and project managers with a track record of saving heritage properties from demolition — says it can't stomach the idea of the 150-year-old building being abandoned as the prime minister's official residence.

HODI maintains the home has been at the centre of national political life for generations and shouldn't be relegated to the dustbin of history.

Marc Denhez is the president of HODI and and a past member of the official residences advisory committee at the National Capital Commission (NCC).

He said he believes reports of the home's state of decay have been exaggerated and the suggested price tag to fix the place is out of step with industry norms for a renovation project of this scale.

"We have a number of experts at our disposal and all of them unanimously have said the $36.6 million figure is for the birds," Denhez told CBC News.

A 2021 NCC report concluded the residence is in "critical" condition and estimated the cost to complete "deferred maintenance" at more than $36 million. The report set the home's "current replacement value" at $40.1 million.

"It can be done for a lot less money if you know how to kick the tires. And we have people who know how to kick tires," Denhez said.

He said the option of commandeering land in Ottawa's Rockcliffe Park for a new home — floated by government sources in a Radio-Canada story earlier this week — would be more expensive than fixing up the current Gothic Revival-style home to modern standards.

"Don't compare us to Jesus Christ. Compare us to the alternative and the alternative is kicking out park goers and putting a glass box in the middle of parkland," Denhez said.

"There's an apparent assumption that it's going to be so much more economical to snatch up parkland and start from scratch. We don't think that's true."

Denhez said it shouldn't take millions of dollars to clear out dead rats and squirrels in the walls. Remediation work to remove asbestos and replace outdated electric systems is already underway, he added.

Denhez said the prime minister doesn't require a lavish home with a designated space for large receptions.

He said that under Canada's Westminster system of parliamentary democracy, it's the King's representative who has most of the official hosting duties and Rideau Hall is already well equipped to handle such events.

What the prime minister needs, Denhez said, is a respectable home worthy of a G7 leader with space for family and rooms to host smaller affairs of state.

A renovated 24 Sussex, at 12,000 square feet, would fit the bill, he said.

"It's the Crown that has the responsibility for holding state events. In Britain, you don't have a state banquet at No. 10 Downing St. The prime minister gets in his limo and drives over to Buckingham Palace," he said.

"The same practice applies here in Canada. But you have some people in government who are saying, 'Oh, 24 Sussex, it's not presidential enough.'"

A spokesperson for the NCC declined to comment on the agency's long-term plans for 24 Sussex.

The home was closed for "health and safety reasons" last fall, the spokesperson said.

Starting in September, construction workers will start "abatement of designated substances" while removing outdated mechanical and electrical systems, she said.

A spokesperson for Public Services and Procurement Minister Jean-Yves Duclos said the government is working closely with the NCC to "develop a plan for the future."

A government source speaking to CBC News on background said Duclos will release the government's plan for the residence "soon."

"That's the best I can tell you. The final plan will come soon. It's at the top of the list for the minister," the source said.

Ken Grafton, a project manager at HODI, said the government shouldn't be rushing into a decision to replace the home. He said HODI wants the opportunity to make its pitch to Duclos to save 24 Sussex.

He said the NCC has stymied HODI's efforts to obtain detailed documents about the home's condition and the figures that support the $36.6 million price tag to replace it.

"The historic value of the home is very high. Think of all the world leaders that have been through there. It'd be ridiculous to demolish that. The government can't be that callous," Grafton said.

"We've assembled a team that's really bulletproof in terms of credibility on built heritage. We just want the chance to overturn the negative narrative that's been surrounding 24 Sussex for too long. We want to be a resource for the government."

Mark Brandt is a senior conservation architect at Trace, an Ottawa firm that has worked on retrofits of prominent heritage buildings like Parliament Hill's East Block and the Sir John A. Macdonald Building.

A past president of HODI who supports the non-profit's current efforts to save the home, Brandt has drafted an unsolicited proposal to preserve 24 Sussex while also building a new "official wing" on the home's expansive two-hectare grounds.

The existing residence would be returned to its original function as a single-family home while the new addition could be used for other official purposes, he said.

"All this talk of demolishing a historic building — it's crazy. The residence can be saved and it can be rehabilitated. There's no reason to lose the history or the gravitas of the place," Brandt told CBC News.

"You can do a completely modern, super-secure, net-zero carbon emissions addition. It can be a friendly next-door neighbour to the existing building which, as part of our proposal, can be fully restored on this spectacular site."

Security concerns are what's motivating the government to consider other sites for the official residence.

The existing home is relatively close to the street, which poses a risk given the real threats Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has already faced while in office.

But Brandt said those risks can be mitigated.

The home's location — atop a cliff and surrounded by water on three sides — is already ideal from a security standpoint, he said.

The existing perimeter fence and gate can be "hardened," he added, and the road system reworked slightly to prevent unwanted vehicles from getting too close.

"The home's neighbours, the French embassy and the governor general's residence, seem to be quite happy with the security situation. Security is a challenge but I also think it's a red herring. We have great minds who've dealt with this before and they can do it again," he said.

Other official residences, like the White House in Washington, D.C., are arguably much more exposed to security risks than 24 Sussex, he said.

And other buildings frequented by Trudeau, including ones that Brandt's firm helped design in the parliamentary precinct, are also in more vulnerable urban locations, he said.







https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/sav...plan-1.6953440

Last edited by rocketphish; Sep 1, 2023 at 2:41 PM. Reason: Added link to proposal
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  #439  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2023, 1:50 PM
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Where would they put the new building for security personnel? That was one of the issues with the site, iirc.
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  #440  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2023, 2:21 PM
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Where would they put the new building for security personnel? That was one of the issues with the site, iirc.
What's wrong with the building that's at the gate? There's space for a building at the other gate a well.
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