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  #17561  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2021, 7:17 PM
cardeza cardeza is offline
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Originally Posted by AnEmperorPenguin View Post
I don't know that driving up housing cost is really going to be hitting "developers" the hardest or that people that build housing are the bad guys in a scenario where you need more housing
is there really any evidence that lots of new construction brings down housing prices? Most of the booming cities in america are also the most expensive while the cheapest tend to be those with low population growth and little in the way of new construction. The issue they are trying to address isn't about lack of affordable housing per se. It's about making it realistic for some low or moderate income people to be able to stay in fast changing areas. I clicked on the link and saw the bill only applies to two areas in the city. I'm pretty sure each piece of legislation that is not 100% loved by the development community has been touted as the beginning of the end. Somehow I doubt this one will be any different.
     
     
  #17562  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2021, 9:50 PM
Londonee Londonee is offline
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Idk why Wawa has about a handful of locations within a 10 minute walk from each other. Seems a little excessive. Although this is sad, CC is coming back strong with ground floor leasing at least in my neighborhood. And more stores are expected to open next year which is nice!
It had nothing to do with foot traffic/business - the store was doing fine. But like the store at Broad and Walnut - it attracted too many bizarre undesirables. Too many complaints, quality of life issues, police calls. Hard to staff places like this and keep up QC. There's still a few halfway houses and methadone clinics in Market East...
     
     
  #17563  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2021, 9:54 PM
PurpleWhiteOut PurpleWhiteOut is offline
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One aspect is looking down the line. Most housing being built is expensive now, but down the line as it ages, may become cheaper/second tier options. A lot of affordable neighborhoods were not built that way, but as they aged got more affordable (eg split up Victorian mansions in west Philly, the lower Northeast right now). A unit cannot become affordable if the unit doesn't exist in the first place.

In terms of affordability from stagnating communities, that's a different story. They don't have people coming in who need housing, so housing doesn't need to be built. If anything they might have too much and abandoned properties. Places that are growing, however, need places for people to go. Someone isn't moving to Philadelphia because they heard a new apartment building is getting built. Building housing isn't attracting people from somewhere else or poofing them out of thin air. If they're coming anyway, you need more units so demand isn't as hot. The booming cities that are expensive you're referring to probably still need even MORE of a construction boom.
     
     
  #17564  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2021, 10:39 PM
AnEmperorPenguin AnEmperorPenguin is offline
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Originally Posted by cardeza View Post
is there really any evidence that lots of new construction brings down housing prices? Most of the booming cities in america are also the most expensive while the cheapest tend to be those with low population growth and little in the way of new construction. The issue they are trying to address isn't about lack of affordable housing per se. It's about making it realistic for some low or moderate income people to be able to stay in fast changing areas. I clicked on the link and saw the bill only applies to two areas in the city. I'm pretty sure each piece of legislation that is not 100% loved by the development community has been touted as the beginning of the end. Somehow I doubt this one will be any different.

Yes? This isn't complicated in any way; population growth drives construction, and if an area grows faster than it builds housing at some point there's not enough housing. Poor people get outbid and if you legally protect certain incomes the problem just moves to the people earning slightly more. If the city wants to build and provide affordable units it certainly could, but trying to push the cost onto for profit developers and throwing a fit they aren't acting like non profit organizations is just idiocy.

This bill isn't "the end" and no one is saying that, all it does is make housing more expensive and will lead to less being built.
     
     
  #17565  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2021, 12:21 AM
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summersm343 summersm343 is offline
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25 Units Coming in Two Buildings Near 12th & Vine

Building on the corner of 12th & Vine built a couple of years back:


245 N. 12th Street current progress:


245 N 12th Street plans:


225 N 12th Street current progress:


225 N. 12th Street plans:


Read/view more here:
https://www.ocfrealty.com/naked-phil...near-12th-vine
     
     
  #17566  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2021, 12:23 AM
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Apartments Will Fill Long Vacant Lot at 20th & Snyder

Current site:


Rendering:


Read/view more here:
https://www.ocfrealty.com/naked-phil...at-20th-snyder
     
     
  #17567  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2021, 12:25 AM
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summersm343 summersm343 is offline
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45-Unit, Mixed-Use Building Planned Near Penn Treaty Park

Current view of 1212-16 N. Delaware Avenue:


Old rendering of project, but plans are similar:


Read/view more here:
http://www.rising.realestate/45-unit...n-treaty-park/
     
     
  #17568  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2021, 12:26 AM
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Permits Issued For 72-Unit Building At 2149-73 East Rush Street on the border of Port Richmond and Kensington

Rendering:


Read/view more here:
https://phillyyimby.com/2021/12/permits-issued-for.html
     
     
  #17569  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2021, 12:27 AM
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Permits Issued For 76-Unit Building At 4701-15 Kingsessing Avenue In Squirrel Hill

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Read/view more here:
https://phillyyimby.com/2021/12/perm...ladelphia.html
     
     
  #17570  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2021, 12:56 AM
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Rendering:

This looks pretty decent.
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  #17571  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2021, 1:05 AM
Frontst17 Frontst17 is offline
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Originally Posted by AnEmperorPenguin View Post
Yes? This isn't complicated in any way; population growth drives construction, and if an area grows faster than it builds housing at some point there's not enough housing. Poor people get outbid and if you legally protect certain incomes the problem just moves to the people earning slightly more. If the city wants to build and provide affordable units it certainly could, but trying to push the cost onto for profit developers and throwing a fit they aren't acting like non profit organizations is just idiocy.

This bill isn't "the end" and no one is saying that, all it does is make housing more expensive and will lead to less being built.
There’s no reason a developer shouldn’t be pressured to factor in the average income in a zip code or average home price as opposed to dropping literal shit construction onto a empty block and charging 800k+ for it. As the neighborhood builds over the years it will become more valuable that makes sense. The city will just make more projects that they will allow to rot and have to tear down in 40 years. I think as Philadelphians we see sky high asking pricing and say “wow progress!” Not taking into account “wow this isn’t worth even half that…”. I think more affordability would actually INCREASE demand immensely. Plenty of developers getting away with murder in this city and others
     
     
  #17572  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2021, 4:19 AM
allovertown allovertown is offline
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Originally Posted by EastSideHBG View Post
On a related note I found this article and the map to be interesting:

Center City pedestrian traffic is rebounding, but office occupancy remains low
The number of people in Center City each day is increasing, but where they are headed tells a story of pandemic recovery.
https://technical.ly/philly/2021/12/...ice-occupancy/
Good article. Though this quote from Levy is his usual brand of myopic cluelessness:

“If you walk around Center City and peep into bars and restaurants, you will find people are not afraid to be there,” Levy said. “So what’s the hesitation with offices? Social distancing is easy to achieve and suffice it to say, if we want a competitive city that works on reducing poverty, it’s time to get office workers back in the office.”

LOL! How does people working in an office as opposed to at home help combat poverty? And since when is poverty something he cares about beyond hassling poor people who try to relax in a park the CCD manages?

I think it's pretty clear why people are going into restaurants and bars but not the office. Going to a bar or restaurant offers something that you simply can't get when you try to do something similar at home. On the other hand people have realized that while there are some specific things that are more challenging when you're working from home, for most people who work in offices, most of the work they do is just as easily done from home and they'd prefer to do it there.

Besides I think he's just dead wrong on this. I've been saying for awhile now that the increased work from home nature of many jobs following the pandemic should be a boon for Philadelphia.

I know WAYYYYYY more people who would like to live in the city but feel like that can't due to desire to be within close proximity of their job, than I know people who don't want to live in the city, but feel forced to in order to be close to their job. And while this is anecdotal, the jobs numbers back this up. Philly has always been a city that was behind its peers in terms percentage of jobs in the metro that are located in the city as opposed to the suburbs. And after decades of trying to lure those suburban jobs into the city, Levy should really understand how difficult that is to do.

The fact that people aren't returning to the offices but there are so many people on the streets anyway because the residential population continues to increase is a great thing. Having to go to work 9-5 was actually preventing a lot of people from living here.

Now obviously people will still go to the office sometimes and we definitely still want more jobs in the city. But's it's easier to attract those jobs when there is a larger resident pool of potential employees to attract them.
     
     
  #17573  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2021, 5:40 AM
PurpleWhiteOut PurpleWhiteOut is offline
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Originally Posted by summersm343 View Post
25 Units Coming in Two Buildings Near 12th & Vine

Building on the corner of 12th & Vine built a couple of years back:
Awesome! I didn't know this actually got built. It's honestly an architectural marvel that they fit 7 units into a 12' wide lot. ISA architects seem like a go-to for tiny lots here and I think this is amazing, if not award winning worthy
     
     
  #17574  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2021, 2:24 PM
AnEmperorPenguin AnEmperorPenguin is offline
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Originally Posted by Frontst17 View Post
There’s no reason a developer shouldn’t be pressured to factor in the average income in a zip code or average home price as opposed to dropping literal shit construction onto a empty block and charging 800k+ for it. As the neighborhood builds over the years it will become more valuable that makes sense. The city will just make more projects that they will allow to rot and have to tear down in 40 years. I think as Philadelphians we see sky high asking pricing and say “wow progress!” Not taking into account “wow this isn’t worth even half that…”. I think more affordability would actually INCREASE demand immensely. Plenty of developers getting away with murder in this city and others


I get what you're saying but the land itself ends up being a lot of that 800K and someone that can afford an 800K house can also afford to buy old housing in a nice area and renovate it into the 800K version. For profit developers take into account neighborhood incomes in the sense that they need to sell their developments or lose all their money, which is why those 800K developments aren't all in Nicetown or similar places where land is dirt cheap.

Not that allowing market rate construction is a perfect system but if the alternatives are neglected projects or no options at all it still works out better for everyone other then NIMBYs
     
     
  #17575  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2021, 2:54 PM
3rd&Brown 3rd&Brown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frontst17 View Post
There’s no reason a developer shouldn’t be pressured to factor in the average income in a zip code or average home price as opposed to dropping literal shit construction onto a empty block and charging 800k+ for it. As the neighborhood builds over the years it will become more valuable that makes sense. The city will just make more projects that they will allow to rot and have to tear down in 40 years. I think as Philadelphians we see sky high asking pricing and say “wow progress!” Not taking into account “wow this isn’t worth even half that…”. I think more affordability would actually INCREASE demand immensely. Plenty of developers getting away with murder in this city and others
You know there are census tracts in Philadelphia where the average household income is +/- $12K per year. Who TF is gonna build there with such a "requirement"?

The best way for the city to maintain affordable housing is to have some sort of trust fund for helping low income people maintain their homes so that they're liveable and to figure out the tangled deed issue. The former could even be coupled with trade schools to provide a steady stream of apprentices who can gain experience while working for the city at an affordable rate.
     
     
  #17576  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2021, 4:59 PM
Londonee Londonee is offline
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Originally Posted by allovertown View Post

I know WAYYYYYY more people who would like to live in the city but feel like that can't due to desire to be within close proximity of their job, than I know people who don't want to live in the city, but feel forced to in order to be close to their job. And while this is anecdotal, the jobs numbers back this up. Philly has always been a city that was behind its peers in terms percentage of jobs in the metro that are located in the city as opposed to the suburbs. And after decades of trying to lure those suburban jobs into the city, Levy should really understand how difficult that is to do.
There's also a ton of folks who when forced to work from home decided to leave the city b/c their 3bedroom house wasn't suitable with a kid and two parents working from home. People enjoying their urban life, but felt forced to leave b/c they couldn't afford something bigger in the city and their just wasn't enough space for this lifestyle to continue. The virtual schooling last year was brutal for a lot of people in smaller spaces.

Also, a huge driver of Center City's $$ (and therefore a massive consideration) is not just office workers who work in CC full time. It's Tues-Thurs consultants for Deloitte with expense accounts and 3-4 hotel nights booked per week, who are now not coming in anymore . It's the executives who fly in from the coast for a big quarterly shindig who book out ballrooms at the Marriott and dinners for 10 c-suiters at Del Frisco's - not happening. There are massive ripple effects across the whole hospitality, retail and transportation industries because office workers aren't back yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by allovertown View Post
The fact that people aren't returning to the offices but there are so many people on the streets anyway because the residential population continues to increase is a great thing. Having to go to work 9-5 was actually preventing a lot of people from living here.
"So many people on the street" - is a bit of a stretch. It's noticeably quieter around the clock in Center City. One of the things that drew me to cities in the first place is the constant feeling of energy, of things always happening. The hustle and bustle - outside of certain times (like a beautiful spring Saturday in Rittenhouse Sq) - is just not really there right now and that's just not a good thing for a host of reasons.

Interestingly, in Fitler Square - it's the most crowded it's ever been from a pedestrian standpoint M-F. Despite that, a lot of the services haven't returned. Bars, restaurants, cafes, for example, all are still operating at limited hours for some reason. Like, hey everyone is working from home, can you please open for lunch again?
     
     
  #17577  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2021, 5:17 PM
chimpskibot chimpskibot is offline
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Originally Posted by Londonee View Post
Interestingly, in Fitler Square - it's the most crowded it's ever been from a pedestrian standpoint M-F. Despite that, a lot of the services haven't returned. Bars, restaurants, cafes, for example, all are still operating at limited hours for some reason. Like, hey everyone is working from home, can you please open for lunch again?
I get your sentiment but idk how realistic it is? CC has bounced back really well. I just had to wait in a 300+ person line last week to get free Ice Cream at 7pm on a Thursday in Rittenhouse.

I know its anecdotal, but foot traffic in cc since the end of the summer has been insane on fri-sunday with almost every restaurant booked to capacity between Rittenhouse and WSQW. Even with increased crime people are still flocking to the city for leisure, shopping and entertainment. I think we should view the CBD and downtown as a place that caters to residents first and office dwellers second. While the execs and consultants may spend a lot of money at one time, attracting more residents who live and work (from home) in the downtown will be a better long term strategy.
     
     
  #17578  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2021, 5:34 PM
PHLtoNYC PHLtoNYC is offline
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Originally Posted by Mayormccheese View Post
Chestnut st from juniper to 12th is a little rough. I hope this gets filled with something quickl
Yea, it will take time for that stretch to bounce back. But the popular restaurant chain Sugar Factory is opening along the 1200 Block of Chestnut, which will certainly help with appearance and foot traffic.

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Originally Posted by PurpleWhiteOut View Post
Awesome! I didn't know this actually got built. It's honestly an architectural marvel that they fit 7 units into a 12' wide lot. ISA architects seem like a go-to for tiny lots here and I think this is amazing, if not award winning worthy
It's even cooler in person, you should check it out. It didn't get much attention on the development front, but Inga Saffron wrote a piece about it.

And great to see some of the parking lots along this stretch getting filled in. Now if only the Vine could be capped!
     
     
  #17579  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2021, 6:12 PM
PHLtoNYC PHLtoNYC is offline
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Originally Posted by chimpskibot View Post
I get your sentiment but idk how realistic it is? CC has bounced back really well. I just had to wait in a 300+ person line last week to get free Ice Cream at 7pm on a Thursday in Rittenhouse.

I know its anecdotal, but foot traffic in cc since the end of the summer has been insane on fri-sunday with almost every restaurant booked to capacity between Rittenhouse and WSQW. Even with increased crime people are still flocking to the city for leisure, shopping and entertainment. I think we should view the CBD and downtown as a place that caters to residents first and office dwellers second. While the execs and consultants may spend a lot of money at one time, attracting more residents who live and work (from home) in the downtown will be a better long term strategy.
While office workers is important for overall downtown health, the bold is why Center City fared better than many other big city downtowns, a high residential population and tons of amenities packed into close quarters.

I've travelled to dozens of cities this year for work and Center City (even with its issues) is by far among the liveliest.

Downtown Chicago and Boston were also bustling on my recent visits, DC was not.

And so many others were not at all. San Francisco threw me off though, it was both quiet and in rough shape (per my November visit).
     
     
  #17580  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2021, 10:47 PM
cardeza cardeza is offline
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Originally Posted by AnEmperorPenguin View Post
Yes? This isn't complicated in any way; population growth drives construction, and if an area grows faster than it builds housing at some point there's not enough housing. Poor people get outbid and if you legally protect certain incomes the problem just moves to the people earning slightly more. If the city wants to build and provide affordable units it certainly could, but trying to push the cost onto for profit developers and throwing a fit they aren't acting like non profit organizations is just idiocy.

This bill isn't "the end" and no one is saying that, all it does is make housing more expensive and will lead to less being built.
considering how limited the geographic scope of the bill is I doubt it will make a significant dent at all. What does anyone expect developers to say other than Bill X will reduce activity and drive up prices? That is their response to every single bill that doesn't come from their lobby. It's like clockwork, its business as usual. Life goes on, development will go on. One day I hope people are capable of grasping their are differing constituencies in this city and people who are elected try to stay that way by addressing the concerns of their voters- that does not mean every decision they makes ends up being "pro developer" nor does it make it wrong. Shockingly, not everyone in Philadelphia views development as the end all be all of life here nor does everyone agree it's a positive. When you have these views in the body politic you will end up with bills being passed that are not necessarily what developers want to see.
     
     
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