DENVER | Main Development Thread #7 - Page 666

RyanD · #**13301** Posted **Aug 7, 2022, 10:29 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by DenvertoLA

2. the brick work on 10th and Acoma looks great.

Definitely one of my favorite hefty, thick ones.

laniroj · #**13302** Posted **Aug 8, 2022, 3:17 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Bullshit. Never, ever, ever enough to justify the investment or move the needle on overall development patterns. Because, well, this:

https://www.denverpost.com/2017/06/0...plan-defeated/

It's not BS. The DC area started with trains in the mid 70's with rapid expansion through the mid-90's. Not until the late 2000's did they finally start to see really large, dense development pop up around rail stations - 30 years in an area where money literally never stops flowing. They had three of four areas of dense development prior to this (comparable to Rino) and then it just exploded, including through the great recession. Rail is a long term investment and I think it will be 20-30 years before Denver fills in the fluff around transit and then starts seeing very dense clusters along rail stops.

laniroj · #**13303** Posted **Aug 8, 2022, 3:27 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

Is anybody aware of a car-oriented sprawling city that was able to retrofit a viable public transit system with high ridership? I love trains and want to see them thrive in Denver but it seems to be a difficult task to connect a metro area that was built for the car. That's why I'm more interested in improving transit and other multimodal options in the city, rather than the suburbs. Denver's streets were largely designed around a streetcar network IIRC

The closest example is probably Chicago, but it's not perfect and it's essentially set up like all the others connecting the sub/ex-urbs to a downtown center.

Interestingly, New York also struggles with the City center design and is retrofitting now, for an incredible amount of money. The improvements include connecting the Long Island RR to Grand Central and also trying to build a horn from south brooklyn to LaGuardia. They are also trying to connect their north metro trains to Penn Station. All this to say, they are trying to fill in the gaps created by a system designed to connect suburbs with city center, but not suburb to suburb. Given how our interstates are design in a beltway pattern, I would think if America got dense enough, we could theoretically add to our train network within that infrastructure.

laniroj · #**13304** Posted **Aug 8, 2022, 4:52 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Moving on out to the suburbs

Comment: While downtown neighborhood development hasn't taken all of the oxygen out of the air it continues to take most of it. But that will eventually change, at least enough to encourage more suburban TOD.

I'll agree with bunt that Belleview Station is likely an outlier for what will more typically be built. But urban-suburban density is more than enough to make a huge difference. Here is one current example which broke ground in September of 2021.

laniroj · #**13305** Posted **Aug 8, 2022, 4:58 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by mishko27

It would be all of 3 miles of track, and would be a very impactful extension. Once finished, Downtown Westminster will be a fun destination - it would be the first Alamo you can actually get to on a train for example.

You can get to Alamo Littleton on a train. That whole shopping center and multifamily development behind it was somewhat of a TOD spurred shopping experiment. Aspgren Grove wasn't quite as successful as they hope and so the owner is now trying to add a couple thousand housing units to maybe make up for the lackluster retail execution.

Ndj · #**13306** Posted **Aug 8, 2022, 5:13 PM**

Car-centric dense housing is still car-centric. I see that in a lot of the "density" popping up around Denver.

TakeFive · #**13307** Posted **Aug 8, 2022, 6:38 PM**

A Retrospective Wrap

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhays

Portland's transit is decent, but its commute share wasn't very good in 2019. It was basically LA.

A lookback to February 2012 - https://www.governing.com/archive/go...c-transit.html

Quote:

When Peter Rogoff, the head of the Federal Transit Administration, visited Portland, Ore., earlier this year, local leaders and transit officials were abuzz. The city’s identity has long been tied to its reputation as a transit leader, and hosting the highest transit official in the land helped bolster those credentials.

For a City of its Size, Portland was a Trailblazer

Way, way back to September of 1986 Portland opened its 1st light rail line, a 27-station, 15-mile beauty. A 20-station, 18-mile extension to the West opened in 1998. Later a 5.5-mile line to the airport opened in 2001.

Portland deservedly received a lot of buzz and cred for what it had been able to do with light rail, (again) especially for a city of its size.

Going back a dozen year or so

Sound Transit didn't have much ring-a-ling.

In 2011, Denver RTD was just launching its commuter rail.

Courtesy The Denver Post

https://www.denverpost.com/2011/08/3...dollar-assist/

Quote:

ARVADA, Colo.—U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood signed an agreement Wednesday committing $1.03 billion in federal funds for two planned light rail lines in Denver. One line will link downtown to Denver International Airport. The other will link downtown to the northwest suburbs of Arvada and Wheat Ridge. Both lines are scheduled to be ready for service in 2016.

The $1.03 billion award is the last piece of funding needed for the $2.1 billion Eagle P3 project...

Early on, many had trouble remembering the difference between light rail and commuter rail which the P3 project built.

Quote:

The contractor Denver Transit Partners is financing and building the two lines, which RTD will own. RTD will pay the contractor to operate and maintain the lines over 29 years.

mishko27 · #**13308** Posted **Aug 8, 2022, 6:41 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by laniroj

You can get to Alamo Littleton on a train. That whole shopping center and multifamily development behind it was somewhat of a TOD spurred shopping experiment. Aspen Grove wasn't quite as successful as they hope and so the owner is now trying to add a couple thousand housing units to maybe make up for the lackluster retail execution.

You are ABSOLUTELY right, can't believe I didn't realize that the southwest corridor goes around there. We are starting to see more of these outdoor malls turning into mixed use developments around the metro area, SouthGlenn is about to do the same. I think it's Downtown Westminster and Belleview Station that are an inspiration for them. Creating a built-in customer base should help all of these suburban "city center" like malls.

TakeFive · #**13309** Posted **Aug 8, 2022, 7:16 PM**

Retrospective Part Two

So much gratitude to Team Obama and the ARRA which provided boatloads of money for new transit.

So what Portland was able to accomplish (to their credit) prior to Pres Obama, most cities west of the Mississippi (my focus) started building their own light rail systems. From Minneapolis to Denver, Dallas, Salt Lake City, Phoenix and San Diego, all built their own light rail.

Fast-forward to MAR 22, 2021

10 Cities With The Best Public Transportation and What Transit Planners Can Learn From Them

Quote:

Public transportation is nothing new, but with modern technology, cities can create better infrastructures like never before.

Let’s walk through the 10 cities with the best public transportation in the U.S. so that transit planners can learn from their successes.

Seattle, Washington
Boston, Massachusetts
San Francisco, California
New York, New York
Washington, D.C.
Chicago, Illinois
Madison, Wisconsin
Denver, Colorado
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Portland, Oregon

Certainly a whole lot has changed in the last dozen years.

mhays · #**13310** Posted **Aug 8, 2022, 8:20 PM**

The headline is very misleading. Seattle's nowhere near the top for transit. But it does a lot of things decently, like relatively fast and frequent buses by US standards.

PS, Sound Transit is the #2 transit provider in the region. #1 is King County Metro, which does the short/mid-distance buses.

TakeFive · #**13311** Posted **Aug 9, 2022, 5:05 AM**

Thanks for your effort !

Quote:

Originally Posted by laniroj

Downtown takes the headlines, but the greater suburban area is densifying in ways I'm not sure many on this site may realize. Here are just some examples of moderately dense housing popping up in faraway lands. There are too many to link, but they are in every corner of our transit network now, the majority of which isn't even a decade old. The heavy development in places like Belleview, Lone Tree, etc are lines that have been around 20 years. To me, the future of transit looks good and we all need to take a breath and realize that we have a gem of a transit network that isn't perfect, but it will serve a meaningful purpose as the decades roll by.

Cirrus used to provide links for photos he used as examples and I always enjoyed that.

I recognized about half of those. When you spread them out among 50 stations it has a diluting affect but the point is that this will continue to grow as you point out.

------------------------------

That's just the way it is
(Bruce Hornbsy)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ndj

Car-centric dense housing is still car-centric. I see that in a lot of the "density" popping up around Denver.

In the suburbs I'd venture to guess that 95% of households have a car, some have two or three. Even if they can take advantage of light rail, most people still want a car for shopping, entertainment or going into the mountains. If they're a family with kids there's myriad reasons for needing a car - in the suburbs.

You should consider attending some of the neighborhood presentations that developers are required to give. I haven't gone in person but I have followed many for the feedback or blowback developers get for too much density, too much traffic etc. Even in Denver neighborhoods it can be hard to convince people that density and transit are good things.

Unfortunately, it's a process; a process that will take decades. But who knows maybe in time cars will become much less of a thing.

----------------------------------
I'm not so sure I wouldn't agree with that list

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhays

The headline is very misleading. Seattle's nowhere near the top for transit. But it does a lot of things decently, like relatively fast and frequent buses by US standards.

Admittedly it's hard to compare Seattle with the legacy systems of large cities. But many or most of those systems are also a Hot Mess.

Transit woes mount for Boston’s beleaguered subway riders
August 7, 2022 By STEVE LeBLANC - AP News

Quote:

BOSTON (AP) — For Boston subway riders, it seems every week brings a new tale of transit woe.

Runaway trains. Subway cars belching smoke and fire. Fatal accidents. Malfunctioning station escalators. Rush hour trains running on weekend schedules. Brand-new subway cars pulled from service. Derailed construction vehicles.

The repeated chaos of the nation’s oldest subway system has stretched the nerves of riders, prompted a probe by the Federal Transit Administration and worried political leaders.

The Chicago Transit Authority is having a crime problem including people getting shot.

While Sound Transit gets more current buzz and is still a work-in-progress there's no question the RapidRide lines which they invested a lot of money on have performed well (for the most part).

rds70 · #**13312** Posted **Aug 9, 2022, 9:55 PM**

Kroenke Sports Entertainment has unveiled its most detailed plans to date regarding its redevelopment of land around Ball Arena.

By Kate Tracy – Reporter , Denver Business Journal
Aug 9, 2022

Quote:

After proposing its massive redevelopment plan for the 55 acres that surround Ball Arena in May, KSE submitted its Ball Arena Infrastructure Master Plan on July 27. The plan proposes approximately 12 million square feet of residential, retail, office, hotel and education uses on the land that’s bordered by Speer Boulevard, the Regional Transportation District rail line and Auraria Parkway.

The new plans break out the use of that square footage more clearly. KSE wants to build 6,729 new residential units totaling 5.38 million square feet. Plus, 582,763 square feet will be made up of retail buildings.

Five office buildings totaling 2.9 million square feet are also proposed, with two of those buildings located at Speer Boulevard and the RTD rail line. The other three would be located along the northwestern corner of the development, also bordered by the RTD rail line. KSE is also proposing a 309-key, 225,300-square-foot hotel at the south corner of Wewatta Street and Speer Boulevard.

KSE is also proposing 3.1 million square feet of education buildings on the southwestern portion of the site.

https://media.bizj.us/view/img/12319...1014-138-0.png

SirLucasTheGreat · #**13313** Posted **Aug 10, 2022, 7:31 PM**

Not sure if Walton will be building a new stadium any time soon. The new CEO, Greg Penner, said at the introductory press conference today "At this point, Empower Field at Mile High is a world class facility. We have 10 years on our lease. We have time to consider our options."

wong21fr · #**13314** Posted **Aug 10, 2022, 8:17 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by rds70

KSE is also proposing 3.1 million square feet of education buildings on the southwestern portion of the site.

What are they thinking of there? Extension of the Auraria Campus with student housing and activities? It would make sense given the long-standing wishes of MSU Denver and also CU Denver's vision for it's Student Village.

TakeFive · #**13315** Posted **Aug 12, 2022, 7:53 PM**

Step by Step, slowly I turn

Quote:

Originally Posted by rds70

Kroenke Sports Entertainment has unveiled its most detailed plans to date regarding its redevelopment of land around Ball Arena.

Somewhere among that development KSE has plans for creating new practice facilities for both the Avalanche and the Nuggets, etal. Included will be high-end training facilities and rehab/therapy areas; I wouldn't be surprised if they have their own MRI scanner machine.
-------------------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

Not sure if Walton will be building a new stadium any time soon. The new CEO, Greg Penner, said at the introductory press conference today "At this point, Empower Field at Mile High is a world class facility. We have 10 years on our lease. We have time to consider our options."

It was nice to see several prominent Blacks among the ownership or Executive team. The Presser was emotional for both Mellody Hobson and Condoleezza Rice.

'The moment is humbling, and it's historical':

Quote:

ENGLEWOOD, Colo. — For Mellody Hobson and Condoleezza Rice, the opportunity to join the Walton-Penner Family Ownership Group's purchase of the Broncos was about more than simply owning an NFL team.

For Hobson, the chairwoman of Starbucks and president and co-CEO of Ariel Investments, it was a realization that went beyond her imagination.

And for Rice, a former secretary of state and provost at Stanford University, joining the group was an opportunity to combine her deep-rooted love for football with her fond memories of Denver. "You have to understand how much I love football," Rice said. "My dad was a football coach when I was born.

"To me, actually, it's a blessing," Owner & CEO Greg Penner said of being joined by Hobson and Rice in the ownership group. "To have partners like this, their willingness to join us in this endeavor, is a huge blessing. I couldn't be more thankful."

I'm not surprised they quickly put to bed the idea of moving the Stadium. The 10 year lease made for a good excuse. What's interesting is that if they want to go in that direction they only have about 5 years to make a decision. It takes years of planning and development for a project of the size of a new stadium.

TakeFive · #**13316** Posted **Aug 12, 2022, 8:49 PM**

Contradictions and hypocrisy abound

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Unfortunately this thinking is now engrained at the very highest levels - state and federal. Anti-car "urbanists" (you know, urban, like Boulder) long ago won the ideological battle.

While watching a Rockies game recently I did a dive into the Denver Streets Partnership. Nothing I wasn't already familiar with; it was textbook Urbanism. I suspect in many cases the world has passed them by.

They'll insist on sending a bus down 'Your Friendly Street' with one guy in the back of the bus while spewing pollution along the way. But ask for service that would be in high demand and they come up with excuses.

RTD’s BroncosRide isn’t coming back anytime soon
August 12, 2022 Nathaniel Minor - CPR News

Quote:

Before the Regional Transportation District put it into hibernation in the spring of 2020, the decades-old BroncosRide bus service ferried thousands of passengers directly to Empower Field at Mile High for Broncos home games.

But the service is not coming back this season, which starts Saturday with an exhibition home game against Dallas. One big reason is because of RTD’s ongoing driver shortage, and special services like BroncosRide require lots of drivers to work extra shifts.

Are all the directors happy about this?

Quote:

Some on RTD’s governing board of directors have pushed the agency to bring back BroncosRide, noting its popularity.

"There are people in our districts, that's the only time they use our system,” Board member Troy Whitmore told the board in March. “They feel good about their tax dollar at work. And we can't provide it because we don't have the resources.”

I'm gonna guess that if they made the buses available to be subcontracted out to the private sector they could find a way. It would be a great way for drivers to make some extra $'s and attend the Bronco game; plus all those paying fans. Put a tip jar in front and count the appreciation on your way to the bank.

I understand the driver shortage problem; partly it reflects issues with fixed routes and fixed schedules or the need for running overtime routes.

I've read that many people would rather do DoorDash than work for RTD. Need a bathroom break? Simply turn off the App and take all the time you need. Plus you get to work in your own neighborhood or pick whatever neighborhood you like.

Some 'drivers' prefer working for Amazon. It can be a bit grueling but you don't have to worry about unruly passengers spitting in your face (or worse). Nowhere on the Denver Streets Partnership site did I see anything about making bus driver safety or needs a priority. Apparently it's not in the textbook; just give them lots of routes and lots of frequency. Talk about being out-of-touch with today's world.

wong21fr · #**13317** Posted **Aug 12, 2022, 9:36 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by TakeFive

I'm gonna guess that if they made the buses available to be subcontracted out to the private sector they could find a way. It would be a great way for drivers to make some extra $'s and attend the Bronco game; plus all those paying fans. Put a tip jar in front and count the appreciation on your way to the bank.

I understand the driver shortage problem; partly it reflects issues with fixed routes and fixed schedules or the need for running overtime routes.

I'm going to to go out on a limb and say it might be the rest of the context in the article surrounding ADA compliance that's probably the bigger issue. The Colorado Cross-Disability Coalition has probably threatened to sue RTD on this issue. Last time this accessibility issue raised its head all parents had to fold up their strollers and carry it their kids onto the bus or trains. Or was it when RTD removed ~20% of the seats of LRV's to make larger wheelchair zones?

RTD tends to do anything the CCDC asks of it.

Reasons to work for Doordash rather than RTD: no CDL required, no drug tests, someone else in your household works a job with benefits so you can free-load off them. Or you keep your take-home pay low enough you can qualify for government cheese.

bulldurhamer · #**13318** Posted **Aug 12, 2022, 10:14 PM**

https://www.9news.com/article/news/l...1-4ed20b0463a5

Quote:

Denver’s trash fee structure will be $9 per month for a small trash cart, $13 per month for a medium trash cart, and $21 per month for a large trash cart.

In return for the new trash fees, Denver will start recycling weekly and compost services for everyone will be included.

Meanwhile, almost everyone leaves there trash and recycling bins in the alleys. This won't change, no matter what they say. So the obvious result is going to be that everyone gets the cheapest trash can then just throws the excess trash in someone else's bin or in the compost.

In short, this may be the most poorly thought out plan ever.

If they want to raise the price for trash and include recycling services, they should just do that. Making it a fight in the alleys with your neighbors will end up with a few people getting trash rage murdered, the recycling trucks filled with garbage, and the alleys will be left with filled with trash. Can't wait for this one.

bulldurhamer · #**13319** Posted **Aug 12, 2022, 10:46 PM**

“An audit of our own waste right here in Denver has shown that 50% of the material that we put in our trash cans is compostable,” Rink said. “And 25% is recyclable. That means only 25% of what we put in the trash is actually trash.”

The plan also eliminates the fee for composting and increases recycling pick-ups, both at no charge.

https://www.thedenverchannel.com/new...sm-from-others

So they haven't been picking up recycling but every other week and are surprised the trash cans have excess recyclable materials.

And from an logistics standpoint, I cannot wait to see how these compost bins are going to work out. The alleys are already full, there's simply not room for everyone to roll out a compost bin along with the other bins. But more realistically, it's hard enough to get poor people to use the trashcans at all. Now they're going to have to go through a voucher process to avoid payment then are expected to care what's compostable and whatnot? Hilarious. $20 says half of those compost bins will be filled with garbage. Hell, I don't even know what the compost bin is for exactly.

But it's all about being equitable I guess. We subsidize the poors transportation in the name of the RTD boondoogle. We're about to do the same with this sidewalk fiasco - interestingly enough, they're back replacing the curb crossings that are perfectly fine again. More sidewalk money going to do nothing useful again. Same thing happened 3 years ago. I'd like to see the books on this one too. Finally, it appears we'll be subsidizing the composting for the lower class. I'm all for it, but not really since I actually see how that's going to go. Waste of money but the council can claim some touchy feely bullshit equitable blah blah blah victory.

mhays · #**13320** Posted **Aug 12, 2022, 10:50 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by bulldurhamer

https://www.9news.com/article/news/l...1-4ed20b0463a5

In return for the new trash fees, Denver will start recycling weekly and compost services for everyone will be included.

Meanwhile, almost everyone leaves there trash and recycling bins in the alleys. This won't change, no matter what they say. So the obvious result is going to be that everyone gets the cheapest trash can then just throws the excess trash in someone else's bin or in the compost.

In short, this may be the most poorly thought out plan ever.

If they want to raise the price for trash and include recycling services, they should just do that. Making it a fight in the alleys with your neighbors will end up with a few people getting trash rage murdered, the recycling trucks filled with garbage, and the alleys will be left with filled with trash. Can't wait for this one.

This is done elsewhere, and it works.

Crazy imagination you have.