DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by BrIced_Tea

Arlington Virginia is a pretty good example. Used to be very suburban until the DC Metro was built through town.

Nice example.

In the beginning... For years, this forum's moderator was Cirrus who was a transportation planner for NoVA. I recall learning a lot about the Silver Line and Tyson's Corner as well as a ton of transit wisdom.

Cirrus also became 'famous' when he wrote this piece about "BRT Creep" at "Greater Greater Washington" back in 2011.

[TakeFive]

I almost overlooked this. Thought I'd take a second look. Amazingly clear day!

Originally Posted by rds70

RINO/Brighton corridor from yesterday:

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by laniroj

Currently yes, you're spot on, but you have to remember this is an investment for a century. As Denver matures, more dense development will occur in those suburban locations at nodes. We're still probably 20-30 years away from that kind of cycle system wide but we have pockets of it already in places like DTC, Lone Tree and even Aurora to a lesser extent.

Let's run a quick review. First is the closer to downtown TOD.

Broadway/I-25 Station

• Gates District at Broadway Station by Endeavor
• Santa Fe Yards at Broadway Station

41st and Fox Station

• FoxPark Denver

Note: The FoxPark development has started demolition and infrastructure work.

Then there's The River Mile awaiting Platte River improvements.

The Sun Valley Masterplan which is in progress.

The Stadium District Master Plan

Summary: If DUS neighborhood development was $2 billion then I'll guess a minimum $5 billion of investment in the above listed TOD areas.

[TakeFive]

Moving on out to the suburbs

Originally Posted by laniroj

Currently yes, you're spot on, but you have to remember this is an investment for a century. As Denver matures, more dense development will occur in those suburban locations at nodes. We're still probably 20-30 years away from that kind of cycle system wide but we have pockets of it already in places like DTC, Lone Tree and even Aurora to a lesser extent.

Comment: While downtown neighborhood development hasn't taken all of the oxygen out of the air it continues to take most of it. But that will eventually change, at least enough to encourage more suburban TOD.

I'll agree with bunt that Belleview Station is likely an outlier for what will more typically be built. But urban-suburban density is more than enough to make a huge difference. Here is one current example which broke ground in September of 2021.

The Point Crossing

The Point Crossing is a new affordable workforce housing project located adjacent to the Regional Transportation District’s (RTD) Nine Mile Station in Aurora, Colorado. The proposed project will be constructed within the 22-acre redevelopment known as The Point at Nine Mile located at the corner of Parker Road and Peoria Street.

This looks to be nice.
South Westminster Station TOD




Images courtesy VMWP Denver

From Low Density Industrial Site to Vibrant Neighborhood

South Westminster Transit Oriented Development [TOD] is a 100 acre redevelopment of an existing industrial neighborhood into a vibrant, mixed use neighborhood. The site program includes 1,100 units of housing; 334,000 sq. ft. of retail space; 240,000 sq. ft. of commercial office space; 67,000 sq. ft. of industrial space, and a series of pocket parks, a main street and a town green.

Orchard Station - Between Belleview and Orchard there's a lot of crappy office buildings. Some day Greenwood Village will look at the potential tax base from allowing redevelopment into reasonable residential density, say up to six stories.

[Ndj]

I know this is just concept are but that westminster development just looks like a suburban, car-oriented development in disguise to me. Made all the roads and parking lots white to hide how much of that land is actually reserved for cars. Not to mention 1100 units for 100 acres next to a train stop isn't even close to dense enough.

[Robert.hampton]

Not sure i I've seen anyone mention this proposal - converting the Capitol Center at 16th and Grant from office to apartments while also putting another 11 story tower up next door. Great to see more nibbling on the office-to-residential conversion idea and this in particular would help add activation and connectivity between CBD and Uptown.

Proposed conversion of an 11-story existing office tower on the southeast corner of the property into multi-family residential with apartment amenities and co-working spaces. 111 units proposed. In addition to the existing tower, the site consists of an existing 2-level parking garage on the north side of the property. The garage is anticipated to be demolished to make way for a new 11-story apartment building with parking garage and apartment amenities. 243 units, 319 total parking stalls proposed. The existing 2-story building on the southwest corner of the property will remain with no change in use.

[TakeFive]

Good catch; fair point

Originally Posted by Ndj

I know this is just concept are but that westminster development just looks like a suburban, car-oriented development in disguise to me. Made all the roads and parking lots white to hide how much of that land is actually reserved for cars. Not to mention 1100 units for 100 acres next to a train stop isn't even close to dense enough.

Yean, I didn't even notice the 'white' space; but this is where my contextual thinking comes in.

A) Most of the new apartment buildings in/near downtown Denver also have parking and also are along streets that may or may not have street parking. This development will not have the budget to include podiums for parking so they show more of a 'donut' or interior parking plan.

B) Good guess this TOD will be a mix of affordable and market rate projects and market rate in Westminster will not compare to market rate in Denver.

C) The Westminster Station, the one and only station along the B Line is six miles from downtown. It would be nice to extend the B Line at least to the new Downtown Westminster but don't hold your breath.

D) If we assume that 15%, maybe 20% of the residents work in downtown Denver, then the rest of the residents need access to wherever they're going.

E) Most of the older apartments in Westminster would be 2 to 3 stories while new projects may be 4 stories. The 5 stories shown is a nice bump up in density from the status quo.

F) The plan does say that:

• Reconnecting the existing urban fabric
• Replacing a dead mall with a vibrant transit oriented neighborhood

BTW, "transit oriented" is not the same as transit dependent.

[Ndj]

On the bright side, some of those central parking areas could be used for much larger developments in the future.

[mishko27]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Moving on out to the suburbs


Comment: While downtown neighborhood development hasn't taken all of the oxygen out of the air it continues to take most of it. But that will eventually change, at least enough to encourage more suburban TOD.

I'll agree with bunt that Belleview Station is likely an outlier for what will more typically be built. But urban-suburban density is more than enough to make a huge difference. Here is one current example which broke ground in September of 2021.

The Point Crossing





This looks to be nice.
South Westminster Station TOD




Images courtesy VMWP Denver


Orchard Station - Between Belleview and Orchard there's a lot of crappy office buildings. Some day Greenwood Village will look at the potential tax base from allowing redevelopment into reasonable residential density, say up to six stories.

Orchard Station had fantastic development planned, but we wanted to "keep the character of the village". As an Eastern European who grew up in an actual village, I always found that laughable. Low-rise 1970s and 1980s office buildings, several miles of freeway, and strip malls does not village make.

Especially as the development would not stretch all the way to Yosemite and would strangle i25 between Orchard and Landmark. It's a missed opportunity and you are correct, it will eventually end up developed.

[mishko27]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Good catch; fair point



C) The Westminster Station, the one and only station along the B Line is six miles from downtown. It would be nice to extend the B Line at least to the new Downtown Westminster but don't hold your breath.

It would be all of 3 miles of track, and would be a very impactful extension. Once finished, Downtown Westminster will be a fun destination - it would be the first Alamo you can actually get to on a train for example.

[Ich]

On the TOD subject, I agree that most burbs are opening up to the idea of embracing TODs. May not be like downtown Denver but definitely dense for them. Lone Tree seems to be making good use of their stations, just read an article about making Aspen Grove (Mineral Station) more dense with apartments and reconfigured office and retail, the Jones District is adding a ton of density (Dry Creek Station), I believe Aurora has plans to make a “downtown” around the mall area, Fitzsimons is getting built out, Broadway Park is already starting to fill in and has a bunch of concept plan submitted to replace the parking lots with apartments and retail, Gates has few out there, more density is going up around Evans Station and I think they are supposed to redo the area around Englewood Station. Point is I think as those areas build out, density will continue to push further out and the trains will make more sense. They probably will have a bunch of parking still since they are a suburb and most people have to drive out there but they will be configured in a way thats walkable and pedestrian friendly. Only one I think is a waste is Orchard Station.

[Agent Orange]

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

Is anybody aware of a car-oriented sprawling city that was able to retrofit a viable public transit system with high ridership? I love trains and want to see them thrive in Denver but it seems to be a difficult task to connect a metro area that was built for the car. That's why I'm more interested in improving transit and other multimodal options in the city, rather than the suburbs. Denver's streets were largely designed around a streetcar network IIRC

Arlington (and some parts of MD) are good examples but I think Vancouver provides an excellent alternative history to what a city like Denver could have done. There are plenty of differences (including geographic, government structure, lack of white flight), but it's still a North American post-war city through and through. Beginning in the 1980s (around the same time as our light rail), they began building a fully grade separated urban heavy(ish) rail system. They also have a very dense and frequent bus network. They now have robust transit rideshare (or did, pre-Covid) comparable to legacy cities Toronto and MTL, and in a similar league to many similar sized European cities. Still plenty of sprawl but also plenty of urbanism too.

Portland is another city worthy of comparison. Their pre-2020 transit rideshare was significantly better than Denver's even though they are using similar light rail technology. Their Trimet seems to be much better managed than our RTD. And their network was built to provide access to more urban neighborhoods and existing walkable surburbs incrementally. Our network, on the other hand, was built basically all at once as cheaply as possible through industrial corridors with the hopes of spurring TODs, some day. Portland still suffers from many American city pitfalls, but their transit system and urban cohesion is a noticeable step up from Denver's.

[rds70]

The Downtown Design Advisory Board will be reviewing the massing of a proposed 23 story building at 11th and Cherokee at their meeting next week.

Here are some of the massing views for the +/-296 unit, 257 foot tall building. The best feature is the preservation of the existing single story retail building fronting 11th:

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Agent Orange

Portland is another city worthy of comparison. Their pre-2020 transit rideshare was significantly better than Denver's even though they are using similar light rail technology. Their Trimet seems to be much better managed than our RTD. And their network was built to provide access to more urban neighborhoods and existing walkable surburbs incrementally. Our network, on the other hand, was built basically all at once as cheaply as possible through industrial corridors with the hopes of spurring TODs, some day. Portland still suffers from many American city pitfalls, but their transit system and urban cohesion is a noticeable step up from Denver's.

Portland has done an admirable job with their rail transit although mhays is less impressed. If you calculate ridership per mile which is one way to measure efficiency then Portland scores better the Denver. But what if I don't care that much about per mileage efficiency?

For the 4th quarter of 2021 Portland had a daily ridership of 51,000 compared to Denver's 75,000. Interestingly, Denver served a slightly higher percentage of their metro population than Portland.

Looking down the road

Sure RTD could have built a more "efficient" rail system but their 113 miles is now a sunk cost - and that's a good thing. Given that FasTracks would cost 3X as much to build in today's $'s, I would argue that over the next couple of decades Denver's rail system will stimulate so much TOD that today's system will have been well worth the investment.

[TakeFive]

Pretty Impressive

Originally Posted by rds70

The Downtown Design Advisory Board will be reviewing the massing of a proposed 23 story building at 11th and Cherokee at their meeting next week.

Here are some of the massing views for the +/-296 unit, 257 foot tall building. The best feature is the preservation of the existing single story retail building fronting 11th:

And yes, preserving the retail is a very nice touch.

[TakeFive]

Thanks for the added TOD input; nicely done.

Originally Posted by Ich

On the TOD subject, I agree that most burbs are opening up to the idea of embracing TODs. May not be like downtown Denver but definitely dense for them. Lone Tree seems to be making good use of their stations, just read an article about making Aspen Grove (Mineral Station) more dense with apartments and reconfigured office and retail, .

-------------------------

Originally Posted by mishko27

It would be all of 3 miles of track, and would be a very impactful extension. Once finished, Downtown Westminster will be a fun destination - it would be the first Alamo you can actually get to on a train for example.

Originally, the B Line (to Boulder) was to be a diesel train that would at some point jump on the BNSF tracks. Once RTD gave up on BNSF cooperating, RTD switched gears. Presumably, with a desire to make a "Good faith effort" they just went with the same EMU's as the commuter rail up to the existing station.

Given the ~15 years that have passed a lot of things have changed. There was no new Westminster Downtown back then; additionally it's only been recently that "The Farm" was rezoned for mid-density development. That development lies between 84th and 88th along Federal Blvd (on the east side of U.S. 36) while the New Downtown lies just north of 88th but on the west side of U.S. 36.
Bottom line: you're spot on that extending the B Line to the new Westminster downtown would be amazing.

-------------------------------

I couldn't let this slide

Originally Posted by COtoOC

I like to take the A line to downtown and DIA, but am now hesitant considering the CP Station park and ride is a common place to have your Cat. converter or entire vehicle stolen. It's probably a 25 min. walk from my house to the train, so now it's to the point where Uber/Lyft is the best option to get downtown. Until they can make the parking lot safe, I doubt any incentive would get me back on the train, unfortunately.

This is yet one more good example for how our changing societal problems have threatened a lot of investment. When I rode the rails 5 years ago it was shiny and new; all this crime wasn't even on people's radar; that's how much things have changed in 5 years.

[mhays]

Portland's transit is decent, but its commute share wasn't very good in 2019. It was basically LA.

For one, they're hampered by dispersed employment, including a relatively small downtown. Two, their rail system relies on slow at-grade traverses of the urban core, which also limit train length to 200' given their tiny blocks. Also, despite their limits on sprawl, they don't allow enough density.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by mhays

Portland's transit is decent, but its commute share wasn't very good in 2019. It was basically LA.

For one, they're hampered by dispersed employment, including a relatively small downtown. Two, their rail system relies on slow at-grade traverses of the urban core, which also limit train length to 200' given their tiny blocks. Also, despite their limits on sprawl, they don't allow enough density.

For a man of fewer words that was a great comment. In fact, because I didn't have a good sense of Portland or depth of knowledge it was the perfect answer for me.

For one, they're hampered by dispersed employment, including a relatively small downtown.

That says a lot about each city's canvass. I was curious about the size of downtown Portland as well as where their employment densities were; I knew Intel was is Hillsboro and Nike is in Beaverton. Downtown Denver has a very good employment density. Also, the SE Corridor and with the (now) 3rd busiest airport in the country that's a key employment center as well.

Two, their rail system relies on slow at-grade traverses of the urban core, which also limit train length to 200' given their tiny blocks.

I see this now, how all lines go through downtown. I recall reading about one line that was painfully slow. I didn't know about the train length limitations; RTD runs three-car trains.

Partly, it's pick your poison (or philosophy). The 1st 3 corridors RTD built from the South and SE (2 share a good bit of same track) and carry the most riders all go into/thru downtown. But 5 other lines cruise into Union Station with the 'A' Line to the airport being the busiest. Generally, lines have their own dedicated ROW.

At the risk of boring you it's more fun to compare Denver to Portland than to Sound Transit.

Portland may do a better job in servicing the central city and because of RTD's 'sprawling' system Portland MAX rail is more efficient on ridership per mile. But RTD's 7 lines from different parts of the city likely provide for more upside longer term. (One other line doesn't come downtown)

Just for grins I checked out the bus ridership for both cities. In the 1st quarter of 2022 Portland had a daily ridership of 92,800 while Denver had a daily ridership of 133,100 (according to APTA) which is over 40% more riders.

Comment: Due to the Pandemic RTD was forced to right-size their system which is likely much more efficient as a result. They dropped 2 light rail lines which were redundant anyway.

[Whereveryougo]

Tower crane going up today for the 37th and Downing project. Thinking the external facades for the Current and Foundryline will start appearing in the next few months.

[DenvertoLA]

I was walking around downtown this weekend, three things stuck out to me.

1. All those 8-12 story apartment buildings are adding up. Density is really coming along nicely.

2. the brick work on 10th and Acoma looks great.

3rd, you all weren't joking about the growth in homelessness.