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View Poll Results: Is SEPTA doing a great job in regards to bus, subway, and commuter rail overall??????
YES 56 48.70%
NO 59 51.30%
Voters: 115. You may not vote on this poll

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  #281  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2009, 6:47 PM
phillyscooter phillyscooter is offline
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SL V's and other comments

If we are going to burn up the rest of the fleet, the V's can't arrive soon enough...

If the city owns the subways, and leases to SEPTA, why can't the city grow a set and hire PATCO to drive them, and cancel SEPTA's lease? lets see a transit flame war!
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  #282  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2009, 1:39 PM
Phil_North Phil_North is offline
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The website www.nycsubway.org posted the book Rapid Transit in New York City and in the Other Great Cities (1906) on its website. What's interesting is the portion talking about Philadelphia. It turns out that these lines were not only planned in the books, but ready to be constructed. Below is an excerpt form the book Rapid Transit in New York City and in the Other Great Cities (1906), copied from http://www.nycsubway.org/articles/ra...mmerce_20.html

Philadelphia

Philadelphia is now engaged in the construction of a comprehensive system of rapid transit. The conditions there are more favorable than those in any of the other cities we have mentioned. The city was originally laid out regularly. The streets running north and south are parallel, and those running east and west are at right angles to the others. Two of the streets, Market and Broad, divide the city east and west and north and south, and are of unusual width. These features permit of rapid transit lines that are straight, and provide convenient points for diverging lines.

Act of Assembly. The legal foundation of all the corporations created for the purpose of constructing and operating elevated systems of municipal railways in Pennsylvania is the Act of Assembly of June 7, 1900. Section 1 provides that any number of persons, not less than five, three of whom are citizens of the commonwealth, may form a company for the purpose of constructing and operating passenger railways, either elevated or underground, or partly elevated and underground, and for the collection and distribution of mails of the United States; permission to erect or construct to be obtained from the local authorities of the city in which the road is to be operated.

Section 2 provides that the charter shall be subscribed to by at least three of the corporators, who shall certify, in writing, to the Governor, the name of the company, number of years it is to be continued, and other details in regard to the road, amount of capital stock, etc. This section prescribes also the powers and privileges of the corporation. These are the usual privileges of such a body; but, in addition, power is granted to sell or lease any road or franchise, or any parts thereof, to other companies, or to acquire other roads and franchises.

Section 8 gives such corporations rights of eminent domain.

Section 12 provides that construction shall be begun, in good faith, within two years, and be completed within five years thereafter.

Elevated or Underground. A supplement to this act enlarges the power of such corporations, so that they are authorized to build either an elevated or underground, or both an elevated and underground railway, over the route described in their charter, after having obtained the consent of the local authorities.

Corporations, incorporated under the original act, were given power to construct branches and extensions. The amendment of March 25, 1903, gave them power, with the consent of the local authorities, to abandon any portion of the road, or to merge with other companies, and when two or more roads shall be so merged, the commencement of the work, in good faith, upon any part of the route, on any of such merged roads, shall be a commencement upon all tie merged roads, within the meaning of the act; provided that the work shall be completed within five years upon all the merged roads, unless the time for such completion shall be extended by the proper local authorities. This was an important addition, for the charters of a number of the following mentioned elevated and subway lines would have been forfeited if it had not been for this provision, as work, even vet, has not been begun on them.

Market Street Company. The Market Street Elevated Passenger Railway Company was authorized to build and operate an underground road from Delaware avenue on Market street, around the Public Buildings under any and all streets bounding the same, and continuing on Market street to the county line, with the right to come out upon the surface of Market street west of Twenty-second street, or through private property acquired by the company, and to connect with the tracks of any other passenger railway company. The road must be operated electrically, or by any other power excepting steam. The company is to construct tubes or conduits for carrying city telegraph, telephone and fire alarm wires. Subsequently the company was further authorized to construct a loop, branch, or road beginning at the intersection of Broad and Market streets, on the south side of the City Hall, there connecting with its tracks, and thence extending south on Broad street to Walnut street to Fifth, thence to Arch, to Broad, to Filbert, and there connecting with its main tracks at Fifteenth and Market. This provided for two tracks on Market street east of Broad, and four tracks west of Broad in addition to the tracks already authorized. The alternate privilege was also granted of using Chestnut street instead of Walnut. The company is also privileged to bridge the Schuylkill so as to connect the subway tracks with the elevated tracks to be built to the west.

Routes of Different Companies. Similar ordinances were passed for the Ridge Avenue Elevated Passenger Railway Company to build a double-track elevated railway from Passyunk avenue along Ninth street to Vine, to Ridge avenue, to Main street, Manayunk.

The Frankford Elevated Passenger Railway Company is privileged to build a double-track road from South street along Delaware avenue to Vine, to Front, to Callowhill, to New Market, to Laurel, to Frankford avenue.

The Passyunk Avenue Elevated Passenger Railway is to extend from Delaware avenue along South street to Front, to Bainbridge, to Passyunk avenue, to Juniper, to Snyder avenue, to Schuylkill River.

The Germantown Avenue Elevated Passenger Railway is to extend from Front street along Germantown avenue to Germantown & Perkiomen turnpike, to the county line.

The Broad Street Subway Passenger Railway Company is authorized to construct an underground road from Government avenue under Broad street, around the Public Buildings, and continuing under Broad street to the county line.

Philadelphia Rapid Transit Company. On none of these lines was the requirement as to the beginning and completion of the work complied with; and the rights and privileges granted by the several ordinances would, therefore, have been forfeited, had it not been for the act above referred to providing for the extension of time of completion. All of the franchises have been acquired by the Philadelphia Rapid Transit Company, which operates all the surface lines in Philadelphia.

Description of Work. The plan proposed for the Market street line, now building, was an adaptation of the Boston method, and provided for both elevated and surface cars. The franchise for the line gave the right to build both an elevated road and a subway. There is a double-track elevated structure on Market street from the county line to the Schuylkill River, the surface tracks being underneath. A four-track bridge over the river carries both elevated and surface lines to the entrance of the subway at Twenty-third street. From this point to the Public Buildings is a four-track tunnel, the outside tracks for the surface cars, and the inside tracks for the elevated trains. The elevated tracks will continue around the City Hall and thence down Market street to the river front, where they will join an elevated structure on Delaware avenue from Arch to South streets. The surface car track will leave the other at the City Hall and pass south on Broad street in a single-track subway to Walnut street, to Fifth, to Arch, to Broad, to the City Hall, where it will unite with the westbound elevated track to the county line.

The tunnel is built with a concrete floor, steel-concrete side walls, and roof of I-beams with arches between, and rows of columns between the tracks. A considerable portion of this line has been finished. The bridge over the Schuylkill is practically complete. Work is now progressing on the elevated portion of the road west of the Schuylkill. An ordinance, passed in 1903, provided that each system of the railway must be finished before the streets are torn up for another system. The several sections must be completed in the following order: From Sixty-third and Market streets to Delaware avenue and South street, the system just mentioned, in three years from the passage of the ordinance.

Subway loop on Broad street and Walnut or Chestnut street, Fifth and Arch streets, one year additional.

Subway on Broad street, from Cayuga to Walnut or Chestnut, in two years additional.

Branches in West Philadelphia in two years additional, and the remainder within two years additional.


Quote:
Originally Posted by volguus zildrohar View Post
I posted this in P8 and will place it here for folks who haven't seen it there.

Three maps showing originally envisioned versions of the Philadelphia subway system.

This map depicts the originally proposed 1912 system. You can see certain ideas that were altered or never came to fruition including the full route of the South Broad Street subway to League Island (Navy Yard), an elevated route along Woodland Avenue as well as subway/elevated lines to Germantown & Chelten Avenue and the first phase of the Roosevelt Blvd. subway. Also shown are the routes for the Parkway/29th Street line (the Walnut Lane Bridge was built with provisions for the never built subway) and the originally envisioned route for the Frankford El to a terminal at Rhawn Street. You'll also note the Center City delivery loop and a Chestnut Street subway.



This map depicts the 1923 finalized system - after completion of the Market Street subway and Frankford El. The Broad Street subway was under construction at the time. You'll note the Walnut Street subway that would have fed into the Woodland Avenue El as well as the Eighth St/Ridge Avenue subway. Also, the Chestnut Street trolley subway is depicted along with the Parkway line feeding directly into the Broad Street Subway at City Hall as was originally intended (hence the odd turn the line makes north of City Hall - it was not to avoid the building foundations - it was to allow for an easier connection to the Parkway line.) The Chestnut Street line would have began at Franklin Square.



This is a more detailed look at one version of the Center City loop with a track map. This version was new to me when I saw it. Instead of the Parkway line feeding into the Broad Street Subway this version has it feeding into the delivery loop via 16th, Walnut and 8th Streets before taking Ridge Avenue to meet with the North Broad Street trunk.

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  #283  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2009, 3:41 PM
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ah...dreams! I don't expect all o' that to happen till at least 2020 or later...
high speed lines to serve all those cool places that are currently bus-only.
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  #284  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2009, 7:22 PM
Phil_North Phil_North is offline
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Possible Patco option?

I was looking at some photos on www.phillyhistory.org and it turns out that there was a tunnel built under Arch Street between Broad and 10th streets for the never built Arch Street subway that was supposed to be part of the Center City loop. Some posts from other forums claim that this tunnel still exists today. If that is the case, imagine PATCO extending this tunnel to the waterfront. And to VZ's earlier point about the turn in the BSL tracks, according to an old diagram on phillyhistory.org, this turn in the tracks was to make it easier for the route to turn off to the Arch street line. This way, the trains are not making hard 90 degree angle turns, but would loop into the turn.
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  #285  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2009, 5:02 AM
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Years ago I used to be a regular on the forum at nycsubway.org and printed a version of the planned routes for the system which giovanni sasso made a map based on back in 2003/2004. I may still have it on ym HD somewhere.
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  #286  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2009, 2:45 AM
wanderer34 wanderer34 is offline
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A subway line underneath the Parkway, from the Zoo, to City Hall all the way to Penn's Landing via Arch St makes a LOT of sense today. I still wonder why it never happened. What a waste of potential!!! I'm still not sure if extending that line north from Girard to Roxborough via 29th St would've ever happened, especially by today's standards. There's no major shopping district along that stretch that I can think of. A 5th St line and a Passyunk Ave line would've made a LOT of sense since both had (and still have) vibrant shopping districts.

I also see that the MFL was extended all the way to presumable the city limits via Frankford Ave. Might be nice, but I doubt it will fly today since places like Mayfair and Torresdale are predominately white and they wouldn't want the El to "destroy" their property values.Personally, I feel that a subway should've taken the El's place, and extended via Castor Ave and the Blvd to Somerton/city limits since it would've been more aesthethically pleasing for the NE, as well as Kensington. This new rendition of the El, I'm not feeling it, especially since you don't provide express service (skip-stop doesn't count)

I also believe that expanding the subway system by acquiring the Chestnut Hill, Norristown, and Fox Chase lines and retrofitting them, would be better for the city as well as creating one more line close to the Delaware river (State Rd) and extending it from CC to Bensalem. My two cents!!!
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  #287  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2009, 7:51 PM
Phil_North Phil_North is offline
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I remember hearing of plans some time ago to eliminate the redundancy of the two Chestnut Hill lines and create an extension of the BSL along the R7 tracks. The Chestnut Hill R7 and R8 are the only commuter lines that do not extend outside of the city. Eliminating one of them would seem like a good idea. They travel through densely populated areas that could benefit from rapid transit. But this idea died along time ago along with a lot of other great ideas.
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  #288  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2009, 6:00 PM
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Bike Group Opposes Registration Bill
Group: Try Equitable, Consistent Enforcement First
PHILADELPHIA - Concerns over problem bicyclists have drawn action from Philadelphia city councilman Frank DiCicco.

He's introducing legislation Thursday to require bicycle registration in the city.

Dicicco says it will protect pedestrians. He claims registration will help police identify cyclists who break the law.

Bicyclists recently ran over and killed two people.

But the Bicycle Coalition of Greater Philadelphia opposes that idea.

"Among other issues, we are concerned about the potential for a registration program to discourage riders, impose financial disincentives, and expose the City to numerous legal issues," a statement from the coalition says, noting that other cities and states have passed and then repealed registration and licensing programs.

Instead, the group is promoting "equitable and consistent enforcement of traffic laws as they apply to all road users," stating that it's willing to work with city officials and police on safety, education and enforcement programs before council raises penalties, requires mandatory registration and puts other restrictions in place.

http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/...y_Registration

Anyone have any thougts on this. Think it will really hold back riders? I think it may be necessary due to the complete lack of regard bikers have for road regulations. Maybe not the majorit of bikers act this way but I do witness some pretty stupid actions on a daily basis. 2 people were killed in the past month from bicyclists. It could also be some extra revenue the city badly needs. Philadelphia is definately not the first to implement something along these lines. Bicycling may be getting out of hand due tot he numerous amount of new riders. Maybe its necessary, don't know how it will be enforced but who knows? Follow up article in the Metro with better explanation.
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  #289  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2009, 6:31 PM
Phil_North Phil_North is offline
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I take public transportation to work, but I do feel that this may be a burden on the riders who do obey the laws. I hate it when a biker rides on the sidewalk, but what can you really do about it? Is a cop going to chase him down, or knock him too the ground? "Did anyone get the plate on that bike?"

These laws will be very hard to enforce. Also, how much overhead will it be to keep track of all registered bicycles? Will this be required only for Center City? If visitors from the suburbs ride on Kelly, MLK and Forbidden drives, will they too have to be registered with the city? I think that maybe some new laws will be passed, but i can't see all of suggestions going through.
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  #290  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2009, 7:54 PM
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What the city may settle on is simply giving cops the authority to stop and ticket bicyclists who are caught breaking the rules. This would be something the bike cops could take care of.

I can't really blame City Council. At least they're trying to show they give some shit about QOL violations.
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  #291  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2009, 11:24 PM
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DRPA light-rail plan costlier than one city rejected

By Paul Nussbaum
Inquirer Staff Writer

Did Philadelphia miss a chance for a cheaper, faster way to get a streetcar line along the Delaware River waterfront?

In October, city officials endorsed a plan from the Delaware River Port Authority for a light-rail line along Columbus Boulevard with a connecting line on Market Street to City Hall.

But last year, they rejected a similar proposal for a privately built line with a lower price tag and an earlier completion date. That plan also would have included service to the Navy Yard and the South Philadelphia sports complex, which are just future options in the DRPA plan.

Rina Cutler, deputy mayor for transportation, said the earlier proposal had a number of problems, including an unrealistic time frame and a public-private partnership not permitted under current law.

"In addition, if we were to ever consider a public-private partnership, we would be required to do a public bid," Cutler said. "I think a public-public partnership has more of a chance of actually happening, so that is what I am supporting."

The public-private plan was proposed by a group that included builders, operators, and financiers involved in the Hudson-Bergen light-rail line and River Line in New Jersey, the Houston Metro light-rail line, and transit systems in Ireland, Spain, France, Sweden, and Australia.

The Philadelphia light-rail line was proposed to be run by Veolia Transportation, a French company that operates rail systems in Los Angeles, Boston, South Florida, and northern San Diego County.

The public-private plan was priced at $430 million, including service to the Navy Yard and sports complex, but not to Center City. The DRPA plan is estimated to cost $500 million, including service to Center City, but not to the Navy Yard or the sports complex.

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/home_..._rejected.html
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  #292  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2009, 2:31 PM
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SEPTA funding conundrum: just riding Act 44 isn’t enough

SEPTA funding conundrum: just riding Act 44 isn’t enough
By Anthony Campisi
For PlanPhilly
http://planphilly.com/septa-funding-...%80%99t-enough

Quote:
In 2007, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority in New York began construction of the Second Avenue Subway, a dream of city planners more than 75 years in the making.



In 2002, the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority opened its Silver Line trackless trolley line.



Want to see a new transit line in Philadelphia? Try coming back around 2016.


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  #293  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2010, 12:35 AM
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http://planning.montcopa.org/plannin...77,q,67495.asp

Here's a link about a possible R6 expansion from Norristown to Wyomissing in Berks County. Hopefully, this will be the catalyst that will eventually be a part of a wider expansion of SEPTA's regional rail system to PA's smaller cities (West Chester, Allentown, etc.)!!!
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  #294  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2010, 7:24 AM
Bastranz Bastranz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pwp View Post
SEPTA funding conundrum: just riding Act 44 isn’t enough
By Anthony Campisi
For PlanPhilly
http://planphilly.com/septa-funding-...%80%99t-enough
That's a very insightful article. Thanks for sharing. What part of the state law is making public-private partnerships (P3s) so difficult to form in regards to transportation? With our area's reliance on federal funding, it will be very difficult to obtain the funding to expand our network. P3s are probably the only way we'll see some real expansion around here, instead of study after study after study...
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  #295  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2010, 7:26 AM
Bastranz Bastranz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderer34 View Post
http://planning.montcopa.org/plannin...77,q,67495.asp

Here's a link about a possible R6 expansion from Norristown to Wyomissing in Berks County. Hopefully, this will be the catalyst that will eventually be a part of a wider expansion of SEPTA's regional rail system to PA's smaller cities (West Chester, Allentown, etc.)!!!
This project has been on the table for such a long time now. In fact, it's really just a scaled down (and more logical) version of the failed Schuylkill Valley Metro.

I see potential for this project, though, and I hope it comes into fruition. I firmly believe that this project, as well as the reactivation of the Quakertown line, have a good chance at getting built.
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  #296  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2010, 8:03 PM
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http://www.philly.com/inquirer/local...nsit_hubs.html
DRPA is betting that it can make TOD in Camden around Walter Rand.

And not spending the money to extend the line to Rittenhouse. Again.
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  #297  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2010, 9:33 PM
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http://www.navyyard.org/uploads/file...xec_Sum_LR.pdf
Executive summary of Navy Yard subway feasibility study.

Hopefully we can get more funds to work on it...
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  #298  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2010, 7:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
http://www.navyyard.org/uploads/file...xec_Sum_LR.pdf
Executive summary of Navy Yard subway feasibility study.

Hopefully we can get more funds to work on it...
This needs to happen. If the city is serious about developing the Navy Yard, this has to be the to priority for transit expansion. Too bad we had nothing ready when the stimulus money was up for grabs, definitely a missed opportunity.
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  #299  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2010, 7:28 PM
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It's not quite shovel-ready yet. They need to do EISes, environmental impact statements (although there isn't much environment there left), business plans, etc., before it can go forward. That's why it didn't get included in the stimulus.

If OTOH the city failed to request the necessary funds on the latest mass-transit appropriation bill, that's the kind of inaction that would make me think seriously about voting Nutter out of office.
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  #300  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2010, 5:24 PM
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New fare collectors proposed for Regional Rail Lines

http://www.metro.us/us/article/2010/...5-85/index.xml

Quote:
PHILADELPHIA. Getting to the platform at one of Center City's railroad stations will involve going through new fare turnstiles in the near future if SEPTA goes ahead with a proposal that both helps collect fares during busy rush hour and moves the system toward better technology.

John McGee, head of SEPTA's New Payment Technology, said the agency wants to make payment more uniform on Regional Rail and is considering two alternatives: gating all 153 stations — which he calls "crazy" — or putting "paid areas" on platforms at 30th Street, Suburban Station and Market East. Currently, the roughly 60,000 daily rail riders can buy a ticket on board or in advance, or use a TrailPass.

But some transit advocates oppose the move and argue that it's aimed at reducing the number of customers who ride for free.

"We know that there are passengers whose tickets don’t get collected," said Matt Mitchell, of the Delaware Valley Association of Rail Passengers. "We have opposed this gating for a number of reasons because we’re not yet convinced it can be done safely, [and] it’s a large inconvenience for a number of customers."

Among riders, reaction was mixed.

"To have an automated system like that would be much more beneficial," said Chris Cascio of Newark, Del.

But Michelle Stover, of Torresdale, said: "It's only going to cause delays unless they're going to change their train schedules"

No final decision has been made, McGee said, but will likely come this summer when SEPTA selects a vendor for its new fare system.
Conductors now ‘understaffed’

SEPTA conductor Dante Burns sees the confusion among Regional Rail passengers first-hand when it comes to the fare system.

"Passenger volume has increased over the years, so it's a lot of people that don't understand the system," he said.

"A lot of times we're understaffed as conductors. You might be working on a five-car train with two conductors...SEPTA's losing out on a lot of revenue."

Burns said he supports a system to funnel passengers through payment areas in Center City stations.

"I think it'd be more efficient," he said.


"The railroad is not efficient. The railroad is an awkward fare collection system, at best, and it really comes down to creating a new paradigm among passengers,"
John McGee, head of SEPTA's New Payment Technology



SEPTA says as part of its plan to implement new fare technology and eliminate tokens and transfers for buses, trains and trolleys, it also wants to make payment more uniform on its Regional Rail system, which carries roughly 60,000 passengers a day. Currently, passengers can buy a ticket on board or in advance, or use a TrailPass.

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