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  #321  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2022, 3:09 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by Razor View Post
When it comes to world cities, I can't think of another country with the same 1-2 punch that America has with NYC and LA..I don't necessarily mean in size, but by occupying global space culturally as well..L.A because of it's large dominant movie and music industry.

London/Liverpool - nope
Rome/Milan- nope
China?
France?
etc?
NYC and Los Angeles are the two biggest disseminators of English language media in the world, so it would be hard to find even a single equivalent in most countries. But I think São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro are examples of two very large and culturally relevant cities in a single country.
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  #322  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2022, 3:42 PM
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On an internal level, Canada most definitely has a 1-2 punch with Toronto and Montreal, with either city dominating their respective "spheres" within the country.

Though the impact of either on a global scale is relatively minimal.
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  #323  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2022, 4:13 PM
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Nothing will compare to the US as it's the world's largest economy and cultural powerhouse.

I'd phrase the question differently, and then we could have lots of countries with a pair of cities being powerful culturally: São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro; Toronto and Montreal; Madrid and Barcelona; Milan and Rome; Sydney and Melbourne; Shanghai and Beijing; Tokyo and Osaka.
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  #324  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2022, 4:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Yuri View Post
Nothing will compare to the US as it's the world's largest economy and cultural powerhouse.

I'd phrase the question differently, and then we could have lots of countries with a pair of cities being powerful culturally: São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro; Toronto and Montreal; Madrid and Barcelona; Milan and Rome; Sydney and Melbourne; Shanghai and Beijing; Tokyo and Osaka.
Good way to put it.

And then you have Germany where Berlin can probably be said to be dominant, but only barely so, and the country is quite polycentric in terms of cities and urban areas.
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  #325  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2022, 4:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri View Post
Nothing will compare to the US as it's the world's largest economy and cultural powerhouse.

I'd phrase the question differently, and then we could have lots of countries with a pair of cities being powerful culturally: São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro; Toronto and Montreal; Madrid and Barcelona; Milan and Rome; Sydney and Melbourne; Shanghai and Beijing; Tokyo and Osaka.
Maybe also:

Moscow and St. Petersburg?

Jerusalem and Tel Aviv?

What about India?
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  #326  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2022, 4:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri View Post
Nothing will compare to the US as it's the world's largest economy and cultural powerhouse.

I'd phrase the question differently, and then we could have lots of countries with a pair of cities being powerful culturally: São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro; Toronto and Montreal; Madrid and Barcelona; Milan and Rome; Sydney and Melbourne; Shanghai and Beijing; Tokyo and Osaka.
You can probably see the phenomenon most often in countries where (1) there is a federal style government but the capital is not the largest city (U.S., Brazil, Australia, South Africa), or (2) countries where the capital has been moved from an already well established city (Japan), or (3) countries made up of territories having a stark cultural divide (Canada, Spain, India, maybe Germany).
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  #327  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2022, 4:49 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
You can probably see the phenomenon most often in countries where (1) there is a federal style government but the capital is not the largest city (U.S., Brazil, Australia, South Africa), or (2) countries where the capital has been moved from an already well established city (Japan), or (3) countries made up of territories having a stark cultural divide (Canada, Spain, India, maybe Germany).
Canada has 1) and 3), and even a little bit of 2), though that was a very long time ago.
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  #328  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2022, 5:30 PM
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Good way to put it.

And then you have Germany where Berlin can probably be said to be dominant, but only barely so, and the country is quite polycentric in terms of cities and urban areas.
Yeah, Berlin is ahead there, but they indeed have several cultural centres: Hamburg, Munich and so on.

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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
Maybe also:

Moscow and St. Petersburg?

Jerusalem and Tel Aviv?

What about India?
I don't know much about India, but I suspect Bombay is ahead because of the movies. Not sure how Calcutta is doing these days.

About Russia and Israel, it's like Germany: I would place Moscow and Tel Aviv a bit ahead.
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  #329  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2022, 5:31 PM
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No German would agree that Berlin is the dominant city. It isn't the largest, nor the most important, nor the most culturally relevant.
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  #330  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2022, 5:35 PM
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Primate city

Many countries without a primate city were established relatively recently and are, or were, federal in nature: the United States, Canada, Australia, South Africa, Italy, Germany, and Spain are among the most notable examples

Bangkok, the capital of Thailand, has been called "the most primate city on Earth", being roughly thirty-five times larger than Thailand's second-largest city of Chiang Mai.
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  #331  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2022, 5:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
No German would agree that Berlin is the dominant city. It isn't the largest, nor the most important, nor the most culturally relevant.
I meant culturally. I'd say today Berlin is the most relevant, even if by a narrow margin. If it's not Berlin, which one is on the 1st spot?
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  #332  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2022, 6:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri View Post

I'd phrase the question differently, and then we could have lots of countries with a pair of cities being powerful culturally: São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro; Toronto and Montreal; Madrid and Barcelona; Milan and Rome; Sydney and Melbourne; Shanghai and Beijing; Tokyo and Osaka.
This seems like a pretty good list to me. China is tricky, as they are somewhat culturally cut off from much of the world, so it's hard to say they're comparable to the NY-LA dynamic when it comes to cultural impact. They also now can claim Hong Kong, which does play in that same global cultural scene, but obviously has a tenuous relationship to the rest of China.

All the other pairings you mentioned definitely hold up though. Sydney/Melbourne is what immediately came to mind, but the Brazil, Spain, and Canada pairings also check out. If California was its own country, it would be the clearest example of this in the world.
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  #333  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2022, 7:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
NYC and Los Angeles are the two biggest disseminators of English language media in the world, so it would be hard to find even a single equivalent in most countries. But I think São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro are examples of two very large and culturally relevant cities in a single country.
You could add San Francisco / Silicon Valley to it too probably. I think San Francisco's GDP is close to surpassing LA's GDP at a much lower population. Apple, Google, Facebook, Visa, Chevron, Tesla (moved to Texas but started in the area), Intel, Nvidia, AMD, etc. They helped shape the devices/technology we use today.
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  #334  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2022, 7:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Yuri View Post
I meant culturally. I'd say today Berlin is the most relevant, even if by a narrow margin. If it's not Berlin, which one is on the 1st spot?
It's also the national capital and the historic primate city of the country.

That also adds to its impact.

I think most people would agree that it's not as obvious a call to make for Germany as for other countries, but your question is the correct one to ask: if not Berlin, then who?
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  #335  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2022, 8:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
It's also the national capital and the historic primate city of the country.
It isn't the historic primate city. Berlin is a young city that didn't really assume prominence until the 20th century.

Berlin was a frontier village 1500+ years after Cologne was the most important Roman city north of the Alps.

There's no primate German city. But if you have to pick one, it should be in Western Germany, which has the wealth, population and corporate might, and where almost everything associated with Germany originates.

If Berlin were in Canada it would be in the Maritimes. It's just too culturally and geographically separate.
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  #336  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2022, 8:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post

If Berlin were in Canada it would be in the Maritimes. It's just too culturally and geographically separate.
Oh I know there are things that prevent Berlin from being the uncontested number 1.

For sure its geographic isolation and of course the fact that it was a divided city cut off from the western three quarters of the country for 30 years.
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  #337  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2022, 8:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
It isn't the historic primate city. Berlin is a young city that didn't really assume prominence until the 20th century.

Berlin was a frontier village 1500+ years after Cologne was the most important Roman city north of the Alps.
.
I don't think that it's that relevant to go that far back. Especially not with the concept of primate city which is a fairly recent one. Lots of cities were dominant over territories at one point in history and have faded away.

In 1900, Los Angeles had 100,000 people, Sao Paulo 200,000 and Mexico City 300,000.
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  #338  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2022, 8:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post

There's no primate German city. But if you have to pick one, it should be in Western Germany, which has the wealth, population and corporate might, and where almost everything associated with Germany originates.
.
I don't think that Germany is like some other countries where (most) everything is in one city, but I don't think any single city in the western part of the country has as much stuff of national significance in total within it as Berlin does.

That is my point. And Yuri's as well, I think.
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  #339  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2022, 9:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I don't think that it's that relevant to go that far back. Especially not with the concept of primate city which is a fairly recent one. Lots of cities were dominant over territories at one point in history and have faded away.

In 1900, Los Angeles had 100,000 people, Sao Paulo 200,000 and Mexico City 300,000.
And I add Berlin, by the 2020's was the undisputable largest German city in the world, twice the size of Vienna and almost 3x larger than Hamburg.

Surely Berlin fell badly with all the WWII destruction and be locked and divided inside East Germany, but they did recovery greatly in the past 20 years and I don't see any German city with a stronger cultural brand than Berlin now.

Also Berlin it's not this frontier outpost Crawford talked about since the early 18th century at least. It was the capital city of the ascending Prussia, already the 2nd most powerful German state after Austria.

Crawford mentioned he's originally from the Frankfurt area and people there and in Munich tend to resent Berlin recent comeback, usually dismissing them as "poor".
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  #340  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2022, 10:11 PM
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And I add Berlin, by the 2020's was the undisputable largest German city in the world, twice the size of Vienna and almost 3x larger than Hamburg.

Surely Berlin fell badly with all the WWII destruction and be locked and divided inside East Germany, but they did recovery greatly in the past 20 years and I don't see any German city with a stronger cultural brand than Berlin now.

Also Berlin it's not this frontier outpost Crawford talked about since the early 18th century at least. It was the capital city of the ascending Prussia, already the 2nd most powerful German state after Austria.

Crawford mentioned he's originally from the Frankfurt area and people there and in Munich tend to resent Berlin recent comeback, usually dismissing them as "poor".
Yeah, I was suspecting there might not be some regional rivalries involved.

Berlin is clearly poorer than most of the other major German cities, but it's still typically the first German city people outside the country think of.
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