Historical Ring Cities

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by summersm343

I understand it has to do with commuting patterns, and Mercer County, NJ has slightly higher commuter patterns to North Jersey and NYC (which is obvious, it has more jobs and they have larger employment centers), and yes, Trenton is connected to NYC and North Jersey via NJ Transit commuter lines, and Amtrak. I get all that. Trenton, Hamilton and Princeton DO NOT have unbroken sprawl and connectivity to North Jersey and NYC however.

However, here is the argument for Mercer County (Trenton) being more closely linked to Philadelphia. There is ABSOLUTELY unbroken sprawl between Philadelphia and Trenton, Hamilton and even Princeton. Mercer County, NJ is a part of the Philadelphia Media Market, not the NYC media market. Mercer County, NJ is also a part of the Delaware Valley Regional Planning Commission - in case you didn't know, the Delaware Valley is another name for the Greater Philadelphia Area. Philadelphia is also just as connected via Transit to Trenton and Mercer County as NYC is. That same Amtrak line in Princeton and Trenton, also goes into Philadelphia. SEPTA has two transit lines that run into Trenton. Furthermore, the NJ Transit Riverline runs from Trenton down to Camden, and hits all small cities and towns in between. Mercer County also meets commuter numbers to be a part of the Philadelphia CSA, but the numbers are slightly higher to NYC and North Jersey (for obvious reasons) and therefore, goes to NYC.

so what you are saying is, philly is connected to trenton, and majority trenton are headed east, so philly should be part of the ny metro. or at least its the akron of nyc. j/k

[pj3000]

If Trenton is part of the NYC metro, then much of Bucks County PA should also be.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

so what you are saying is, philly is connected to trenton, and majority trenton are headed east, so philly should be part of the ny metro. or at least its the akron of nyc. j/k

I actually don't think we're too far off from a NYC-Philly CSA, similar to DC-Baltimore.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by summersm343

I actually don't think we're too far off from a NYC-Philly CSA, similar to DC-Baltimore.

I agree. As this conversation shows, it's very difficult to say where one ends and the other begins. You really cannot do it.

[toddguy]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

Ohio's greatest strength (weakness?) is all the regions fighting each other to be the prettiest princess, and then bitching when one of the regions has the audacity to buy a slightly nicer tiara. Looking at you, Columbus/Central Ohio. And no, the fucking crown of Queen City Square doesn't count as the shiniest tiara. This is metaphorical, not literal.

Remember, we're the idiots who fought Michigan for Toledo (speaking of, ring city for Detroit?). You tell me who won in the long run (hint: It wasn't Ohio)

Most of this is coming from Cincinnati and Cleveland towardsColumbus(much less from Cincy though). Go look at the Columbus forum on City data-the commentary is flooded by non-Columbus residents(many from Cleveland or even more common, those who have fled Cleveland but still feel attached to it)and it is very anti Columbus. Columbus is the "little brother" that has had the audacity to go through a growth spurt.
Trolls(especially the one who left for the Twin Cities)have ruined the development forum for Central Ohio there.

I think the harsher commentary from Clevelanders is partly because Cbus is seen as "stealing" more residents from NE Ohio. Some NEO people (mostly Cleveland really) are completely delusional IMO-especially the Western Reserve people who would like NEO to "go it alone" and degrade and look down on the rest of Ohio including the Cincy and Cbus areas.

Just wait until the 2020 census results come out-no matter what the Cleveland area people will be howling!!!

*And Akron is NOT a ring city of Cleveland-it is simply another node in a multi-nodal NEO. Just because Cleveland is the largest node does not mean the others are in orbit around it. People from Akron also seem less delusional-maybe because they are used to having to deal with Cleveland.

*commence the Cleveland haters coming in! I actually want to see all 3 of the C's and other Ohio cities do well. When Cleveland is under attack(and Cbus is not involved)I automatically get defensive for Cleveland. I guess it is like a family to me-we can fight with each other but nobody else had better pick a fight with any Ohio city .

I also believe you are the one who at one time notably said that "all Ohio cities hate each-other and have since the beginning of time"??? -no truer statement has ever been spoken lol.

*The tiara ruins Queen City Square. And yes, Ohio lost the Toledo war. But we do have Kings Island and Cedar Point!

[JManc]

Originally Posted by pj3000

I agree. As this conversation shows, it's very difficult to say where one ends and the other begins. You really cannot do it.

If sports fans like to boo Santa Claus, you're in the Philly area....

[Buckeye Native 001]

Originally Posted by toddguy

Most of this is coming from Cincinnati and Cleveland towardsColumbus(much less from Cincy though). Go look at the Columbus forum on City data-the commentary is flooded by non-Columbus residents(many from Cleveland or even more common, those who have fled Cleveland but still feel attached to it)and it is very anti Columbus. Columbus is the "little brother" that has had the audacity to go through a growth spurt.
Trolls(especially the one who left for the Twin Cities)have ruined the development forum for Central Ohio there.

I think the harsher commentary from Clevelanders is partly because Cbus is seen as "stealing" more residents from NE Ohio. Some NEO people (mostly Cleveland really) are completely delusional IMO-especially the Western Reserve people who would like NEO to "go it alone" and degrade and look down on the rest of Ohio including the Cincy and Cbus areas.

Just wait until the 2020 census results come out-no matter what the Cleveland area people will be howling!!!

*And Akron is NOT a ring city of Cleveland-it is simply another node in a multi-nodal NEO. Just because Cleveland is the largest node does not mean the others are in orbit around it. People from Akron also seem less delusional-maybe because they are used to having to deal with Cleveland.

*commence the Cleveland haters coming in! I actually want to see all 3 of the C's and other Ohio cities do well. When Cleveland is under attack(and Cbus is not involved)I automatically get defensive for Cleveland. I guess it is like a family to me-we can fight with each other but nobody else had better pick a fight with any Ohio city .

I also believe you are the one who at one time notably said that "all Ohio cities hate each-other and have since the beginning of time"??? -no truer statement has ever been spoken lol.

*The tiara ruins Queen City Square. And yes, Ohio lost the Toledo war. But we do have Kings Island and Cedar Point!

Strategically (mind you, I've not lived in Ohio for almost 23 years now), Columbus is what's keeping Ohio afloat (economy, education, government, etc) and Cincinnati and Cleveland are both past their primes and resentful of the newcomer. Hell, if I'd ever move back to Ohio, Columbus would be my first choice.

And I can only speak for Cincinnati's apparent hatred of anything Ohio. The metro markets itself as "Cincinnati USA" not "Cincinnati, Ohio." Then again, outside of Warren and Butler counties, the Tri-State's largest growth area is across the river in Kentucky.

But yeah, basically it's a little brother/little sister syndrome: The cities all fight with each other for prominence, but don't you dare say anything about us as an outsider or we'll f**k you up (just don't expect Cincinnati to not turn into a heel at some point).

And as an ex-Cincinnatian, I'll go on record and declare that Cedar Point is better than Kings Island. KI's only saving graces are The Beast and The Racer.

[JManc]

Columbus reminds me of a sunbelt city. I saw a lot of similarities with Austin. State bureaucracy, massive university and diverse/ hi-tech economy.

[edale]

Originally Posted by JManc

Columbus reminds me of a sunbelt city. I saw a lot of similarities with Austin. State bureaucracy, massive university and diverse/ hi-tech economy.

Columbus is like a mashup of an old midwest and sunbelt. It has way more in terms of old, walkable neighborhoods than a place like Austin. It has historic brick neighborhoods that are simply not found in Sunbelt cities. But it also has sprawling city boundaries and lots of new, suburban neighborhoods are counted in the city limits. It has benefitted immensely from being the capitol and all associated state bureaucratic agencies, as well as having OSU, which receives FAR more funding than all other Ohio universities.

It's definitely the Austin of the Midwest. But it needs to get some of the skyscraper development that Austin has! As much as Columbus has grown, it's been almost entirely lowrise. Cleveland has built more skyscrapers than Columbus in recent years, and it's a city and region experiencing population loss! The dearth of new high rise development in Cbus is a bit of a headscratcher, but with the city limits being so vast and annexation being such a component of the city's growth, I think Columbus has never really felt any pressure to grow up. Hopefully that changes soon.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

And as an ex-Cincinnatian, I'll go on record and declare that Cedar Point is better than Kings Island. KI's only saving graces are The Beast and The Racer.

i agree that CP is the better amusement park of the two........ (hell, CP is the best coaster park on the planet, IMO)

but when was the last time you were at KI?

the beast and racer are hardly the only two good coasters there.

Orion
Diamondback
Banshee
Mystic Timbers
Flight of Fear
The Bat

are all generally considered to be very good to excellent high-octane coasters.

KI is generally considered the 2nd best amusement park in the entire midwest after CP (though the competition ain't terribly steep in that category).

[Buckeye Native 001]

I haven't been since 2010, but I'm contractually obliged to be as negative as possible about everything I've ever experienced in my life (including my hometown, upbringing, sports teams affiliations, etc).

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by JManc

Columbus reminds me of a sunbelt city. I saw a lot of similarities with Austin. State bureaucracy, massive university and diverse/ hi-tech economy.

absolutely. austin and columbus are as twin city cousins as you can get. sure austin is ‘winning’ to quote charlie sheen by 100k people or whatever lately, but don’t count more conservative steady growth columbus out in the future. for example, while i know austin is beating them to it, one thing i have long foreseen for transit desert columbus is they are going to get a lot of it all at once at some point.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by JManc

If sports fans like to boo Santa Claus, you're in the Philly area....

Philly sports fans... ugh, I got family who fit into this category.

Gotta love that fake toughness that Philly puts out. They really just have big mouths, and still haven't learned that you shouldn't mouth off to people you don't know.

Originally Posted by JManc

Columbus reminds me of a sunbelt city. I saw a lot of similarities with Austin. State bureaucracy, massive university and diverse/ hi-tech economy.

Yup, I actually very much get a Dallas vibe there. Probably only more so than an Austin vibe because the terrain is so similar to the Dallas area. And some of the older neighborhoods have more of an east Dallas feel than is found in Austin. Dallas just has much more of a "midwestern" feel than Austin does... Austin feels more "real Texas" to me.

Originally Posted by edale

Columbus is like a mashup of an old midwest and sunbelt. It has way more in terms of old, walkable neighborhoods than a place like Austin. It has historic brick neighborhoods that are simply not found in Sunbelt cities.

I've spent a decent amount of time in Columbus over the past year and a half, and have been very pleasantly surprised at not just those inner urban neighborhoods, but also the suburban town centers. It's a nice city that I don't think most people give much thought to. It's very 'not Ohio'... or at least not what the unknowing, general attitude people have about Ohio is.

[westak]

Originally Posted by toddguy

*And Akron is NOT a ring city of Cleveland-it is simply another node in a multi-nodal NEO. Just because Cleveland is the largest node does not mean the others are in orbit around it. People from Akron also seem less delusional-maybe because they are used to having to deal with Cleveland.

Right, I also root for Cleveland and all of Ohio to succeed and most Cleveland boosters I've met on the forums are respectful towards Akron. However it's been a rough go from a numbers standpoint for a while so I understand the temptation to make Akron some sort of extention of Cleveland. I think most Akron folks are less delusional becuase we were never a major city or top 5 in population, we are what we are , a comfortable mid sized city that's found a way to tread water where some of our similar sized cousins in the rust belt have not.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by westak

Right, I also root for Cleveland and all of Ohio to succeed and most Cleveland boosters I've met on the forums are respectful towards Akron. However it's been a rough go from a numbers standpoint for a while so I understand the temptation to make Akron some sort of extention of Cleveland. I think most Akron folks are less delusional becuase we were never a major city or top 5 in population, we are what we are , a comfortable mid sized city that's found a way to tread water where some of our similar sized cousins in the rust belt have not.

Yeah.. different cities with different histories, assets, and challenges.

Like Fort Worth and Dallas... different cities just 30 miles away from each other. Growth between them and regional consolidation happened, with the bigger city Dallas taking on more of the identity.

And just look at what happened to Fort Worth! Ah, such a bad move for that town!

[Buckeye Native 001]

I tend to believe that Columbus embodies Ohio's future, if that makes any sense?

Northeast Ohio is Rust Belt, Southwest Ohio is Appalachian/Southern. Whatever Columbus is doing, it's representative of what, moving forward, Ohio can/wants to be.

Extremely esoteric, but numbers/stats have never been my strong suit.

[pj3000]

^ sure, but I don’t think Columbus is in some exclusive category as the “future” of an entire state as large and nationally important as Ohio is.

I’m not too familiar with Cincinnati, but the rustbelt is certainly evolving. Particularly the really “old school” rustbelt of Cleveland, Buffalo, Pittsburgh. There are centuries of money and entrenched economic, political, and technological power and knowledge in the area. The current level of investment in the urban cores of these cities hasn’t been seen since the 1950s and 60s... and arguably since the prewar era.

It’s pretty exciting for me as a guy in his 40s to witness what is happening in these places. I have watched them do nothing but decline up until about 10 years ago. Massive transformational change won’t happen overnight... but it has happened considerably in increments over the past decade.

[Buckeye Native 001]

That's true. Cincinnati is in a better spot now than it was 15 years ago. Haven't been to Northeastern Ohio since 2007 so can't really say anything useful about that area.

[toddguy]

Originally Posted by westak

Right, I also root for Cleveland and all of Ohio to succeed and most Cleveland boosters I've met on the forums are respectful towards Akron. However it's been a rough go from a numbers standpoint for a while so I understand the temptation to make Akron some sort of extention of Cleveland. I think most Akron folks are less delusional becuase we were never a major city or top 5 in population, we are what we are , a comfortable mid sized city that's found a way to tread water where some of our similar sized cousins in the rust belt have not.

They are more tolerant of Akron because they want to claim you. But Columbus?-many of them(not all)hate us. I think if God came down and talked to some Clevelanders and said "you can have whatever you want, but remember, whatever I give you, I will give double to Columbus" they would then say back to God, "Destroy half of Cleveland, and destroy ALL of Columbus! lol

[westak]

Originally Posted by toddguy

They are more tolerant of Akron because they want to claim you. But Columbus?-many of them(not all)hate us. I think if God came down and talked to some Clevelanders and said "you can have whatever you want, but remember, whatever I give you, I will give double to Columbus" they would then say back to God, "Destroy half of Cleveland, and destroy ALL of Columbus! lol