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  #21  
Old Posted May 26, 2023, 10:08 AM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Originally Posted by Hali87 View Post
I vote to allow it in this section (not that we vote on things lol)

I don't live in Toronto, never have, never intend to, and still find this interesting, but don't have a ton of time for SSP, definitely not enough to ever delve into regional subforums other than Atlantic. So if it were not in the Canada section I would never see it otherwise.

I'm not just saying it because it's Toronto; if it were two neighbourhoods in Montreal, or Vancouver, or Edmonton, or [whatever city] that are well-known across the country then I don't see the harm in it being in the Canada section. If someone had a legitimate question about "Why is Point Grey like this but Kerrisdale is like that" (or even "why is Vancouver like this but Victoria is like that"), that they wanted to crowdsource an answer to, I'd be interested in seeing that thread.

Does having a thread like this in the Canada section cause any real functional problems or is it more that people are annoyed that they have to see a thread title that they don't care about?
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  #22  
Old Posted May 26, 2023, 2:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Denscity View Post
This is not National. Wrong section.
Mods please move to the Toronto section.
By the metric "our national broadcaster, CBC, would cover it as a national topic", it is in the correct forum section!
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  #23  
Old Posted May 26, 2023, 2:55 PM
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The wealthiest neighbourhood in Ottawa, Rockcliffe Park, was an independent municipality until 2001 when the Ontario government merged Ottawa with all of the municipalities in the area.

Rockcliffe Park is tiny and has under 2000 people.

Because they are so close to it, Rideau Hall (GG's residence) and the Prime Minister's residence on Sussex Drive are often considered to be in the old municipality of Rockcliffe Park, but they've actually always been in Ottawa.
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  #24  
Old Posted May 26, 2023, 2:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
"Exclusive municipalities" are pretty rare in Canada, unlike in the US where a lot of old-line establishmentarian suburbs remained independent.

Montreal is the main exception, where Westmount is (and remains) the most prestigious community, though it feels more like an affluent intown neighborhood. .
Just to show how central Westmount is, the old Montreal Forum, which everyone would consider to be downtown, was often said to be in Westmount.

It actually isn't. It's in Montreal. But the Westmount boundary is almost literally right across the street from the Forum.
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  #25  
Old Posted May 26, 2023, 3:31 PM
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See, we have a great discussion happening, national in scope, in spite of an admittedly poor thread title.

The idea of the Annex "declining" must also seem rather curious, though it did see a dip in its status between say, 1920 and 1960.
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  #26  
Old Posted May 26, 2023, 4:06 PM
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Westmount (anglo) and Outremont (francophone) are often mentioned together in the same sentence as Montreal's two most elite enclaves. And both have wealthy "upper" parts. Though the upper part (i.e. everything north of Sherbrooke) takes up much more of Westmount's geography and population than upper Outremont does of Outremont.

And Outremont apparently didn't object as much to the municipal reorganization of Montreal since it's now a borough.
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  #27  
Old Posted May 26, 2023, 5:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Westmount (anglo) and Outremont (francophone) are often mentioned together in the same sentence as Montreal's two most elite enclaves. And both have wealthy "upper" parts. Though the upper part (i.e. everything north of Sherbrooke) takes up much more of Westmount's geography and population than upper Outremont does of Outremont.

And Outremont apparently didn't object as much to the municipal reorganization of Montreal since it's now a borough.
If we're being completely honest, the de-mergers the followed the Montreal mega-merger had a huge ethno-linguistic dimension. With the weird outlier exception of Montréal-Est way out in the east end (100% francophone), all of the municipalities that split off from Montreal when the Liberals allowed them to do so were those with large anglophone populations.

Even on the West Island (some stretching all the way to the western tip), the municipalities that opted to stay with the merged city of Montreal were those with more francophones and fewer anglophones: Pierrefonds, Île-Bizard, Ste-Geneviève, Ville St-Laurent, etc.)

It is what it is.
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  #28  
Old Posted May 26, 2023, 5:41 PM
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For sure, the demergers were mainly a language thing.

Still, Montreal Island has long been a patchwork of "city proper" and "suburb" though it's been thinned out to mostly anglo holdouts

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002%E...on_of_Montreal

The (then-city) proper of Toronto (35 square miles) was filled out by 1930. Montreal (50 square miles, roughly equivalent to Old Toronto + York + East York) still had undeveloped areas until the 1950s (i.e. Snowdon).
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  #29  
Old Posted May 26, 2023, 5:49 PM
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Trying to imagine a "Montreal Island" map for Toronto (where there's no language factor).

Let's say the 13 municipalities of Metropolitan Toronto in 1953 were never streamlined into six boroughs.

You'd end up with an odd situation of something like the Yorks merging into Toronto, but still have independent Forest Hill, Leaside, Swansea (and maybe a very poor "Weston"?)
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  #30  
Old Posted May 26, 2023, 6:00 PM
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I wonder if "North Toronto" would ever try and separate in this scenario. It was it's own separate town from 1890 - 1912: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Toronto

It would probably be more analagous to Westmount than Forest Hill, even though it's technically further afield than the former. You have high density "downtown" style development around Yonge/Eglinton and some of Toronto's nicer old neighbourhoods. Quite wealthy, but also more urban than something like Rosedale. Also still retains some of it's character - I've hear people on numerous occasions say they live in "North Toronto" as opposed to the individual neighbourhood name.
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  #31  
Old Posted May 26, 2023, 6:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
If we're being completely honest, the de-mergers the followed the Montreal mega-merger had a huge ethno-linguistic dimension. With the weird outlier exception of Montréal-Est way out in the east end (100% francophone), all of the municipalities that split off from Montreal when the Liberals allowed them to do so were those with large anglophone populations.

Even on the West Island (some stretching all the way to the western tip), the municipalities that opted to stay with the merged city of Montreal were those with more francophones and fewer anglophones: Pierrefonds, Île-Bizard, Ste-Geneviève, Ville St-Laurent, etc.)

It is what it is.
It's kind of equivalent to race in America and how that left island municipalities like Hamtramck and Highland Park, that were still white, wholly surrounded by a majority black Detroit.

Eventually it didn't matter, since those places depopulated and turned extremely shitty anyway.
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  #32  
Old Posted May 26, 2023, 6:18 PM
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Originally Posted by niwell View Post
I wonder if "North Toronto" would ever try and separate in this scenario. It was it's own separate town from 1890 - 1912: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Toronto

It would probably be more analagous to Westmount than Forest Hill, even though it's technically further afield than the former. You have high density "downtown" style development around Yonge/Eglinton and some of Toronto's nicer old neighbourhoods. Quite wealthy, but also more urban than something like Rosedale. Also still retains some of it's character - I've hear people on numerous occasions say they live in "North Toronto" as opposed to the individual neighbourhood name.
Yeah, North Toronto had a fairly strong identity which held out for years. The Town of North Toronto became Ward 9 in the city of Toronto and the provincial riding of Eglinton, both of which held out for a long time. And yeah, few really identify with say Lytton Park or Allenby or Chaplin Estates say - those are just residential sections of a larger North Toronto.
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  #33  
Old Posted May 26, 2023, 6:19 PM
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I find the area around Avenue Rd. and St. Clair has the strongest Westmount vibe.
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  #34  
Old Posted May 27, 2023, 5:43 AM
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Had a look at the 1927 Vancouver Social Register today. About 40% of those listed lived in Shaughnessy and most of the rest also had West Side residences. Maybe a tenth living in the West End still.
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  #35  
Old Posted May 27, 2023, 8:55 PM
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Basically what happened is between WW1&2, the WASPY English elite, my great grandparents included, sold their large homes to an influx of "foreign investors" from Hungary, Poland and Germany - many Jewish - who in the 1950s either redeveloped them into apartment buildings (St George especially) or more commonly, subdivided into rooming houses. The English left for Rosedale, North Toronto, Etobicoke, what eventually became Mississauga and Oakville. The Annex never finished the Anglican Cathedral, now part of St Georges Boys school, probably because WW1 was a more pressing concern and also depleted stock of stone masons, congregants etc.

Today, the nouveau riche are tearing down these gorgeous red brick homes and building the ugliest stone mcmansions money can buy. A similar phenomenon is happening in Roncesvalles/High Park. As mayor, I'd ban this senseless destruction.

Sounds familiar? Yes this is what's happening everywhere: homes being turned into 2/3/4/6plexes. I've noticed those in favor of redeveloping the so-called Yellow Belt have the least "Old Stock" ties to the area. Imagine 1000 new Canadians tearing down Old St John's NFLD and putting up the cheapest grey 6plexes and mcmansions.

Last edited by urbandreamer; May 27, 2023 at 9:10 PM.
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  #36  
Old Posted May 27, 2023, 10:32 PM
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A history of the Annex:

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.ne...pdf?1624347966

Basically, the Annex is transitional in terms of the shift to more homogeneous rich neighborhoods. Prior to the Annex, when the rich lived mostly south of Bloor, the pattern was big houses on the main streets: Sherbourne, Jarvis, Queen's Park Crescent, Beverley-St. George below Bloor, with the working class living nearby.

By WWI, there was a shift to Rosedale and the hill district.
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  #37  
Old Posted May 28, 2023, 7:03 AM
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Originally Posted by urbandreamer View Post
Basically what happened is between WW1&2, the WASPY English elite, my great grandparents included, sold their large homes to an influx of "foreign investors" from Hungary, Poland and Germany - many Jewish - who in the 1950s either redeveloped them into apartment buildings (St George especially) or more commonly, subdivided into rooming houses. The English left for Rosedale, North Toronto, Etobicoke, what eventually became Mississauga and Oakville. The Annex never finished the Anglican Cathedral, now part of St Georges Boys school, probably because WW1 was a more pressing concern and also depleted stock of stone masons, congregants etc.

Today, the nouveau riche are tearing down these gorgeous red brick homes and building the ugliest stone mcmansions money can buy. A similar phenomenon is happening in Roncesvalles/High Park. As mayor, I'd ban this senseless destruction.

Sounds familiar? Yes this is what's happening everywhere: homes being turned into 2/3/4/6plexes. I've noticed those in favor of redeveloping the so-called Yellow Belt have the least "Old Stock" ties to the area. Imagine 1000 new Canadians tearing down Old St John's NFLD and putting up the cheapest grey 6plexes and mcmansions.

You're conflating a few entirely different things here: upzoning and/or ending SFH-only zoning has little do with heritage preservation - or lack thereof (as evidenced by all the heritage SFHs being demo'ed and replaced by new SFHs within the yellow belt).

When it comes to the general lack of reverence for built heritage in Toronto, I do think you may be on to something in as much as that's at least in part a side effect of being a city where most people are from elsewhere and don't have much of investment in or connection to the city's history. This is of course in contrast to places like Europe or the older parts of North America where the majority do have deep roots in their area; and heritage preservation is subsequently taken more seriously. That said, the "Old Stock/WASP" vs. "New Canadians" thing seems more like some weird cultural-superiority trope than any meaningful observation. At this point, many of the city's various immigrant communities also have multi-generational roots in the city, and many more people are of mixed heritage; meanwhile, much of the well-to-do WASP population is actually only from post-WWII British immigration.

The yellow belt is something else entirely - its (now former) existence was entirely a post-war suburban phenomenon, and only persisted for so long due to the wealth & influence wielded by its residents. Rather than being an "old stock/new stock" thing, this one largely comes down to being a "landed gentry/renter class" conflict. Aside from affordability though, a big part of the idea of upzoning it is also about being able to return to building the kinds of pre-war communities we celebrate here, with their mix of multi-family housing typologies & uses. Fewer McMansions, more multiplexes. This will inevitably result in more development pressure on older residential neighbourhoods; but at the same time, reduce some of the pressure on older commercial areas which are currently where the bulk of new development (and subsequent heritage destruction) is happening.
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  #38  
Old Posted May 28, 2023, 4:05 PM
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I don't know why pre-war areas aren't just designated UNESCO World Heritage sites. People realize that letting these areas be occupied can cause 100 year old artifacts to get damaged and destroyed right?
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  #39  
Old Posted May 28, 2023, 5:24 PM
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A history of Toronto's "hill district":

https://scenesto.com/2022/06/15/the-...hill-district/
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  #40  
Old Posted May 28, 2023, 7:21 PM
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There aren’t really that many tear downs in roncy - I can think of a few but it’s much more common to gut the interior keeping the brick facade. There are more than a few multi-unit conversions (surprisingly) and lots of laneway suites under construction. I’m not as familiar with the Annex but haven’t noticed many modern homes - most infill seems to be multi-unit.

The big tear down areas are yellow belt North Toronto well off of Yonge as well as North York where the original houses tend to be smaller and more austere than in more central areas. In part because they were always designed for a single family only - no second floor lodgers. These are the places being replaced with McMansions taking up the entire zoning envelope. Also the types of area where multiplex infill may make sense.
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