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  #421  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2021, 8:58 PM
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Originally Posted by llamaorama View Post
I wonder what DART light rail passenger flows look like. Are most people going downtown? Or are there a lot of people commuting to different corners of the city who just go there to transfer to another line or a bus?
It was many years ago (20!), but when I lived in Dallas, it seemed that DART was pretty much all downtown and back weekday commuters. It felt like it was just a “park-and-ride” light rail system.
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  #422  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2021, 3:07 PM
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As Spieler finds, DART has actually stimulated development around its light rail stops. But these transit-oriented mixed use havens haven’t boosted ridership. He uses Richardson’s CityLine as an example: 2.6 million square feet of office space, 3,925 residential units, a hotel, a Whole Foods, and 230,000 square feet of retail and restaurants. And yet, ridership at the attached station has actually declined since it opened—in 2013, before construction, it counted 1,517 average weekday riders. In 2016, after its completion, that had dipped to 1,354. It’s just so easy to drive and park.

No kidding. Nationwide, poor people who don't own cars are moving to the outskirts of town and wealthy people, all of whom own cars and/or can afford to take Uber everywhere, are moving to the prewar walkable neighborhoods.
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  #423  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2021, 3:29 PM
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No kidding. Nationwide, poor people who don't own cars are moving to the outskirts of town and wealthy people, all of whom own cars and/or can afford to take Uber everywhere, are moving to the prewar walkable neighborhoods.
Yes, this seems to be the trend and it sucks. It bothers me for multiple reasons. These low income rural edge neighborhoods tend to lack all kinds of things, like services and businesses and jobs and education and park land and especially transit connections and are not annexed or incorporated into any kind of city. Counties tend to be conservative and want to neglect these areas. The way metro areas grow now is that upper-middle class master planned communities are built all at once with commercial uses included and semi-privatize themselves with HOA's, MUD's, etc. This precludes any kind of real town or real 'place' that has a mix of people and businesses and things growing ever again, because public planning and development of infrastructure has been replaced by private funding.

Also it's weird how the most urban metros, like Seattle for instance, are the ones where fewer companies are going back to in-office work after covid. Also these are the places where self-driving vehicle and autonomous delivery startups are piloting their services. It also seems like these are the places where a lot of people use door dash or uber eats, etc. It makes sense of course. Big cities were hit harder by covid. Dense cities have a larger market for taxis, and people who can't conveniently drive want things delivered. But then you have to wonder, why are people spending $2,500 a month to rent a small apartment in San Francisco or Seattle if all they do is stay home, remotely work, ride in a car whenever they go anywhere, and have food from chain restaurants delivered to them? It's like if someone who didn't like the beach moved to Honolulu, just why?
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  #424  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2021, 4:59 PM
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Originally Posted by llamaorama View Post
But then you have to wonder, why are people spending $2,500 a month to rent a small apartment in San Francisco or Seattle if all they do is stay home, remotely work, ride in a car whenever they go anywhere, and have food from chain restaurants delivered to them?
I really don't understand this thinking that the pandemic, and all the lifestyle changes that have come with it, is a permanent thing. Why move away from where you want to be if chances are high (and I think they are) that conditions will return to a relative state of normality sooner than later.?
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  #425  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2021, 6:00 PM
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Originally Posted by bilbao58 View Post
I really don't understand this thinking that the pandemic, and all the lifestyle changes that have come with it, is a permanent thing. Why move away from where you want to be if chances are high (and I think they are) that conditions will return to a relative state of normality sooner than later.?
But this started a while back, like 10 years ago and has been a growing trend.
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  #426  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2021, 6:26 PM
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Originally Posted by bilbao58 View Post
I really don't understand this thinking that the pandemic, and all the lifestyle changes that have come with it, is a permanent thing. Why move away from where you want to be if chances are high (and I think they are) that conditions will return to a relative state of normality sooner than later.?
Why do you say that people are moving away from where they want to be. Seems that they are moving to where they want to be. Like their place where they may consider retiring or have enjoyed vacationing several years.
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  #427  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2021, 6:31 PM
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Originally Posted by llamaorama View Post
But this started a while back, like 10 years ago and has been a growing trend.
The statement of yours that I quoted was prefaced directly with two mentions of COVID. Of course I assumed that the pandemic was the context for what you were describing.
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  #428  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2021, 6:36 PM
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Originally Posted by DCReid View Post
Why do you say that people are moving away from where they want to be.
Oh geez. I didn’t say that at all. Go back and read the post from llamaorama (immediately before mine) that I quoted from.
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  #429  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2021, 8:33 PM
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Originally Posted by bilbao58 View Post
The statement of yours that I quoted was prefaced directly with two mentions of COVID. Of course I assumed that the pandemic was the context for what you were describing.
One of the greatest things about this post-Covid, other than the ending of this human tragedy, it's seeing there will be no "new normal". Things will be back the way they were before: people traveling, restaurants and bars packed again, people back to office interacting with each other and our cities thriving.
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  #430  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2021, 2:43 AM
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Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
One of the greatest things about this post-Covid, other than the ending of this human tragedy, it's seeing there will be no "new normal". Things will be back the way they were before: people traveling, restaurants and bars packed again, people back to office interacting with each other and our cities thriving.
Disagree, there is a new normal and remote work is absolutely part of that. It was happening before COVID but it will continue to be prevalent going forward.
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  #431  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2021, 3:27 AM
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There is definitely a new normal with climate change.
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  #432  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2021, 4:52 AM
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Originally Posted by llamaorama View Post
But this started a while back, like 10 years ago and has been a growing trend.
It's a trend but not necessarily a good one. Sure, there are some jobs where it doesn't matter where you are (coders for example) but many require human contact Zoom isn't going to cut it. Remote should be an option if you can't make it to work one day, e.g. sick kid, repair man, under weather yourself but people have become too entitled.
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  #433  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2021, 5:58 AM
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Originally Posted by llamaorama View Post
But then you have to wonder, why are people spending $2,500 a month to rent a small apartment in San Francisco or Seattle if all they do is stay home, remotely work, ride in a car whenever they go anywhere, and have food from chain restaurants delivered to them? It's like if someone who didn't like the beach moved to Honolulu, just why?
The other thing is that the staff for warehouses, trucking companies, etc., physically need to be at work, but their workplaces are overwhelmingly in suburbs.

I work at such a place and without a doubt, you are interrupted less by people from other departments while working from home, but that illustrates why working in-person is important - to be of help to other departments, outside of the performative spectacle that is a typical inter-departmental meeting.

Obviously, the physical layout of the office induces more interaction with physically nearby departments, but all of that somewhat random interaction does have value. Exactly how much value it has is a matter of debate, at least in the short-term. For example, last week I overheard the IT guys speculating about an operations situation and I walked over, told them I overheard them and knew the answer, and they were able to move onto the next issue. I was without a doubt the only person out of 200+ who actually knew why that particular situation arises in the warehouse. Maybe my piece of help was of no long-term consequence, or maybe, months from now when their system upgrade goes live, it will save tons of time for warehouse workers and truck drivers.

I just have a really hard time believing that everyone working from home - where they're likely to be more effective in siloed tasks - doesn't come with an unpredictable cost. I think an organization can work from home for a pretty long time without any real consequences, but at some point - and I'd definitely say a year qualifies - all of those little anecdotes that didn't happen end up being a pretty big deal.

Last edited by jmecklenborg; Oct 11, 2021 at 6:19 AM.
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  #434  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2021, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
It's a trend but not necessarily a good one. Sure, there are some jobs where it doesn't matter where you are (coders for example) but many require human contact Zoom isn't going to cut it. Remote should be an option if you can't make it to work one day, e.g. sick kid, repair man, under weather yourself but people have become too entitled.
I agree. Many people who were allowed to work remotely now believe it's a right, and it's not.

I also don't see how become insulated, working alone from a suburban basement/bunker helps social skills or urbanity. I don't think it's a healthy or productive model and many companies, specially on finances, think the same.

And obviously, tourist industry is once again booming, most people are eager to resume their lives.
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  #435  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2021, 12:07 PM
Emprise du Lion Emprise du Lion is offline
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Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
I agree. Many people who were allowed to work remotely now believe it's a right, and it's not.

I also don't see how become insulated, working alone from a suburban basement/bunker helps social skills or urbanity. I don't think it's a healthy or productive model and many companies, specially on finances, think the same.

And obviously, tourist industry is once again booming, most people are eager to resume their lives.
There will be a continued tug of war between those who want to continue working from home and companies who don't want to accommodate, but I think this issue is overblown vs the crisis going on in the service industry.

You're right that people are eager to resume their lives, but there's a massive shortage of service industry workers to help them do so. At least here in the States, a lot of these workers have left the industry with no intention of coming back. Especially ones who relied on tips. I think that's the economic reckoning that we're heading for here rather than the work from home issue.

Maybe I'm wrong though. The work from home issue seems overblown to me, but I also never got to fully benefit from it. The help wanted signs, shortened business hours, and closing restaurants and bars I see everywhere I go though.
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  #436  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2021, 2:36 PM
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Disagree, there is a new normal and remote work is absolutely part of that. It was happening before COVID but it will continue to be prevalent going forward.
This. There will never be a 100% remote economy, and many jobs will return to the office. But there will be many more permanent wfh roles after this is done than there were before. Companies will also be reluctant to mandate in-person for specialist roles that don't need to be performed in person.
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  #437  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2021, 3:53 PM
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to be quite honest I think there is going to be a hybrid

The ability to work remotely but the expectation of being in the office most of the time.

This still will have a pretty sever impact on office demand especially in the financial world and anything involving software or websites.
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  #438  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2021, 8:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
to be quite honest I think there is going to be a hybrid

The ability to work remotely but the expectation of being in the office most of the time.
I mean, this was already the case for almost all white-collar workers pre-pandemic, no? Or maybe just my bubble...
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