Largest modern era municipal population drops

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by niwell

Massive flight, however unlike American downtowns in decay the population in the broader CBD actually increased massively during this time. Lots of hijacked buildings where multiple people / families lived in one room apartments with next to no services, and "rent" paid to an illegal owner. Most of these families either poor transplants from the far Townships or rural areas looking for work, or even more commonly (undocumented male) immigrants from other parts of Sub-Saharan Africa - Zimbabwe in particular - looking for any form of work to send money back home. Basically people that are very easy to take advantage of.

The process actually began in the late 80s as it became clear that there wasn't enough demand to fill the hundreds of apartment towers built on spec in-line with the rules of apartheid. The government was starting to lose control so landlords began renting out to multiracial tenants, and then usually took off completely post 1994.

Even today you see ads looking for someone to share a bed with on message boards. Not a room, a bed - one person would work during the day and the other at night..

That's a very dramatic account. I'd count Downtown São Paulo as one of the foremost examples of urban decay, but Johannesburg CBD fell way way more.

Let's talk about icons: Oscar Niemeyer's building Copan is today of boutique apartments and overpriced Airbnbs, whereas mere 15 years ago, decay was very noticeable there. I don't think Ponte building in Jo'burg is nowhere close to become a very desirable address.

[iheartthed]

Added San Juan and Riga. Trying to find some data about Port-au-Prince so if anyone can point to reliable census numbers that would be helpful.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Added San Juan and Riga. Trying to find some data about Port-au-Prince so if anyone can point to reliable census numbers that would be helpful.

Port-au-Prince because the earthquake? Because population in Haiti keeps growing rather fast.

If you now want to post small declines, go for Havana and Montevideo. They're no longer in their peak.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Yuri

Port-au-Prince because the earthquake? Because population in Haiti keeps growing rather fast.

If you now want to post small declines, go for Havana and Montevideo. They're no longer in their peak.

Yes, there was a substantial population drop after the earthquake, as a lot of Haitians rapidly relocated out of the country in the aftermath. But I don't know if there was an official count of the city's population after that event.

[CaliNative]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Even crazier for Detroit - the city had an employee residency requirement until maybe 15 years ago, so that probably blunted some of the white flight.

And in more recent decades, there has been Arab overflow from Dearborn. A lot of the whites in Detroit proper are Arab Americans. The whitest non-core part of the city is immediately adjacent to Dearborn/Dearborn heights. No question that's a response to East Dearborn overcrowding and high home prices.

And I'm pretty sure Detroit was much whiter than other Rust Belt cities in the early years of white flight. Cleveland and Newark definitely were much blacker. I think even NYC was blacker for a short while. DC, Baltimore and Philly were far blacker. Detroit didn't become a race outlier until the 1980's.

Pretty sure Newark was majority black by the early 1960's. It isn't majority black anymore, and will probably have a Hispanic plurality within 10-15 years. And a lot of the black population has shifted to West African & West Indian immigration. Of course it isn't an exact comparison, bc Newark has tiny city limits that's entirely 1920-era development or earlier. If you took the equivalent geography for Detroit it probably would have been majority black by the mid-1960's. Detroit wasn't majority black until the 1970's.

Why do Arabs settle in the Detroit area? Maybe they are tired of desert heat? Any ideas? Heat annoys me too, although Detroit has hot summer days quite often. But the winters are a challenge.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by CaliNative

Why do Arabs settle in the Detroit area? Maybe they are tired of desert heat? Any ideas? Heat annoys me too, although Detroit has hot summer days quite often. But the winters are a challenge.

The biggest ME population in Metro Detroit is from Lebanon, which isn't really desert heat, and which has pretty cold winters. It definitely gets snow. I believe its weather is like Greece or Southern Italy.

Lebanese have been in Metro Detroit for a century, and started in the auto industry. They have a pretty substantial legacy at this point. Also, most Lebanese in the U.S. are Christian. Dearborn/Dearborn Heights are overwhelmingly Muslim, but most of the Metro Detroit Arab population is Christian.

Most of the Arab population jut blends into the suburban white population at this point. There are just a few hints like extreme numbers of "Mediterranean" restaurants and lots of Lebanese Maronite or other Eastern Rite churches.

Dearborn/Dearborn Heights are another story, however. Very Muslim, hijabs everywhere, everything halal. Dearborn feels like a typical immigrant gateway hub. There are two other notable communities - Chaldeans (Iraqi Christians) and Yemenis (generally very poor Muslims). Chaldeans are mostly assimilated, except for the Iraq War relative newcomers, and live in Trumpy Macomb County; Yemenis are "fresh off the boat" and live in/around Dearborn. There's also a high income business-owning Chaldean community in West Bloomfield (Oakland County).

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Dearborn/Dearborn Heights are another story, however. Very Muslim, hijabs everywhere, everything halal. Dearborn feels like a typical immigrant gateway hub. There are two other notable communities - Chaldeans (Iraqi Christians) and Yemenis (generally very poor Muslims). Chaldeans are mostly assimilated, except for the Iraq War relative newcomers, and live in Trumpy Macomb County; Yemenis are "fresh off the boat" and live in/around Dearborn. There's also a high income business-owning Chaldean community in West Bloomfield (Oakland County).

Lived in Detroit for a limited period of time, but my own impression is that basically the Muslim population established itself by following in the footsteps of the Christian Arabs, who were assimilating and moving out further into the suburbs. The Yemenis are of course the latest major wave.

Still not sure how the heck Hamtramck got so Bengali though.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Crawford

The biggest ME population in Metro Detroit is from Lebanon, which isn't really desert heat, and which has pretty cold winters. It definitely gets snow. I believe its weather is like Greece or Southern Italy.

Lebanese have been in Metro Detroit for a century, and started in the auto industry. They have a pretty substantial legacy at this point. Also, most Lebanese in the U.S. are Christian. Dearborn/Dearborn Heights are overwhelmingly Muslim, but most of the Metro Detroit Arab population is Christian.

Most of the Arab population jut blends into the suburban white population at this point. There are just a few hints like extreme numbers of "Mediterranean" restaurants and lots of Lebanese Maronite or other Eastern Rite churches.

Dearborn/Dearborn Heights are another story, however. Very Muslim, hijabs everywhere, everything halal. Dearborn feels like a typical immigrant gateway hub. There are two other notable communities - Chaldeans (Iraqi Christians) and Yemenis (generally very poor Muslims). Chaldeans are mostly assimilated, except for the Iraq War relative newcomers, and live in Trumpy Macomb County; Yemenis are "fresh off the boat" and live in/around Dearborn. There's also a high income business-owning Chaldean community in West Bloomfield (Oakland County).

I didn't know Detroit Arabs were Christian Lebanese. In this case they're just regular Whites.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Yuri

I didn't know Detroit Arabs were Christian Lebanese. In this case they're just regular Whites.

Yes, outside of Dearborn/Dearborn Heights area, the local ME population mostly registers as vaguely ethnic suburban whites, no different from Greeks, Italians or whatever.

You could have based the My Big Fat Greek Wedding film around suburban Detroit Lebanese family stereotypes.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Lived in Detroit for a limited period of time, but my own impression is that basically the Muslim population established itself by following in the footsteps of the Christian Arabs, who were assimilating and moving out further into the suburbs. The Yemenis are of course the latest major wave.

Yeah, the Muslims are now following ME Christians out into the suburbs. So you see more hijabs than before, but it's not common outside of Dearborn area. And its mostly more assimilated Muslims in the sprawl.

Originally Posted by eschaton

Still not sure how the heck Hamtramck got so Bengali though.

I always hear that the Hamtramck Bengalis are Bangladeshis via NYC's Outer Boroughs, but not sure if that's true. Obviously there would be a vast difference in home prices, and there's probably less competition for small business startups. But Hamtramck is also pretty poor, and surrounded by urban devastation.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Yes, outside of Dearborn/Dearborn Heights area, the local ME population mostly registers as vaguely ethnic suburban whites, no different from Greeks, Italians or whatever.

You could have based the My Big Fat Greek Wedding film around suburban Detroit Lebanese family stereotypes.

Brazilian Lebanese couldn't be more mainstream. One cannot tell them apart from Italians or Portuguese, except for their colourful surnames.

And they're incredibly successful, in several fields. Politics, for instance: Michel Temer, the former president, Geraldo Alckmin (São Paulo governor for 4 terms and now Lula runmate), Fernando Haddad and Paulo Maluf (former São Paulo mayors).

Safra family (big banker in Brazil and Europe, always on the world's wealthiest lists) are Jewish Lebanese. Carlos Ghosn, the former Renault-Nissan president that was arrested in Japan and then managed to scape. There are countless Lebanese Brazilian millionaires. It's a cliché but they're very good with businesses, commerce.

Given their record, it's weird to think how Lebanon is not one of the world's wealthiest countries. It's a shame.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Lived in Detroit for a limited period of time, but my own impression is that basically the Muslim population established itself by following in the footsteps of the Christian Arabs, who were assimilating and moving out further into the suburbs. The Yemenis are of course the latest major wave.

Still not sure how the heck Hamtramck got so Bengali though.

The general rule of thumb was that the Christians from the Middle East went north into the suburbs in the later stages of white flight. Many of them were concentrated in the neighborhoods just north of Highland Park and Hamtramck and east of Woodward Avenue into the early 90s. The Muslim population took root in Dearborn starting in the 1990s due to the political instability in the Middle East.

Ironically, Dearborn was known as being an EXTREMELY racist place even as refugees were starting to be resettled there. That history is all but forgotten because of the demographic change in Dearborn over the last 30 years.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Ironically, Dearborn was known as being an EXTREMELY racist place even as refugees were starting to be resettled there. That history is all but forgotten because of the demographic change in Dearborn over the last 30 years.

True. Even West Dearborn was considered off limits to ME until relatively recently. East Dearborn has been almost entirely Arab for decades, but West Dearborn was considered hostile till maybe 2000 or so. Now the whole city (and Dearborn Heights, and increasingly Garden City and Westland) is ME. Drive along Ford Rd. all the way to Canton or so, and you see the changes.

The Arabs probably ended up there, in part due to Dearborn racism. Dearborn borders (and in some cases is more or less surrounded by) entirely black Detroit neighborhoods, so as the whites moved west, they probably preferred to sell to the Lebanese.

[DCReid]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

The general rule of thumb was that the Christians from the Middle East went north into the suburbs in the later stages of white flight. Many of them were concentrated in the neighborhoods just north of Highland Park and Hamtramck and east of Woodward Avenue into the early 90s. The Muslim population took root in Dearborn starting in the 1990s due to the political instability in the Middle East.

Ironically, Dearborn was known as being an EXTREMELY racist place even as refugees were starting to be resettled there. That history is all but forgotten because of the demographic change in Dearborn over the last 30 years.

From Wiki,
"Many of Dearborn's residents "took pride in the saying, 'The sun never set on a Negro in Dearborn'". According to Orville Hubbard, the segregationist mayor of Dearborn from 1942 to 1978, "as far as he was concerned, it was against the law for a Negro to live in his suburb."[8] Hubbard told the Montgomery Advertiser in the mid-1950s, "Negroes can't get in here. Every time we hear of a Negro moving in, we respond quicker than you do to a fire."

Seems like Deaborn was like Cicero, IL in being racist against African Americans, and then was settled by non-European immigrants as ethnic whites left. In Cicero's case, it was Mexican-Americans.

[Crawford]

The Dearborn-Detroit border is almost as crazy as the Grosse Pointe-Detroit border. In both cases you go from entirely black neighborhoods to entirely non-black neighborhoods.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by DCReid

Seems like Deaborn was like Cicero, IL in being racist against African Americans, and then was settled by non-European immigrants as ethnic whites left. In Cicero's case, it was Mexican-Americans.

interesting comparison.

in cicero's case, it was mexicans moving out across the entire southwest side of the city filling in the empty spaces left behind as white ethnics either died or moved to the burbs/arizona. cicero, though not technically part of the city, was simply the next "neighborhood" in line to move into. ditto what's been happening in cicero's western neighbor, berwyn, which is now also latino majority.

it seems like dearborn might have become more independently middle eastern, not so much as a mass movement out across detroit's entire west side like in cicero's case.

to crawford's point, there's no stark difference on the border between cicero/chicago; both sides are heavily mexican (well at least the southern portion. the northern end that abuts north lawndale still has a pretty big mexican/latino divide, but that is also starting to change as well, as mexicans push up into north lawndale from little village, and as black flight is simultaneously lowering north lawndale's number of black residents).

[Crawford]

Yeah, that whole Little Village area leads into Cicero-Berwyn. It's basically the same thing.

Kinda like how East LA then suburbanizes all the way out to Whittier, but it's all Mexican-American these days.

East Dearborn probably has a near-zero black population. Adjacent areas of Detroit now have some overflow Arabs, but that's a very recent development.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Yeah, that whole Little Village area leads into Cicero-Berwyn. It's basically the same thing.

Kinda like how East LA then suburbanizes all the way out to Whittier, but it's all Mexican-American these days.

East Dearborn probably has a near-zero black population. Adjacent areas of Detroit now have some overflow Arabs, but that's a very recent development.

Also should point out that the Detroit border neighborhoods that the Dearborn Arab population is now flowing into were also just cultural extensions of Dearborn prior to the 1990s. They went straight from working class white to Arab.

[Crawford]

Right, there was also that Warrendale area, which I'm pretty sure was a poor white neighborhood, and considered hostile to blacks, until maybe 20 years ago. But it's Detroit proper.

I believe Warrendale is now black and Arab, and the former population largely gone.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by DCReid

From Wiki,
"Many of Dearborn's residents "took pride in the saying, 'The sun never set on a Negro in Dearborn'". According to Orville Hubbard, the segregationist mayor of Dearborn from 1942 to 1978, "as far as he was concerned, it was against the law for a Negro to live in his suburb."[8] Hubbard told the Montgomery Advertiser in the mid-1950s, "Negroes can't get in here. Every time we hear of a Negro moving in, we respond quicker than you do to a fire."

Seems like Deaborn was like Cicero, IL in being racist against African Americans, and then was settled by non-European immigrants as ethnic whites left. In Cicero's case, it was Mexican-Americans.

God, that's scary. It's crazy how racist the US was. Worse than apartheid South Africa where Whites didn't have such inflamatory hatred.