NEW YORK | Empire Station District | 9 Towers (18-20 msf)| FT | FLOORS

[chris08876]

Sick people and yes, shouldn't they be working. It's a work day and they are out there protesting progress. And... future towers that will house folks that work and have careers and contribute to the country.

[JMKeynes]

I agree, Chris.

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by JMKeynes

I guarantee that the overwhelming majority of them live in rent-controlled apartments, don’t work, and live off the overly-generous NYC which is funded by productive New Yorkers.

There's a guarantee I wouldn't trust.

These people are misguided. They're silly. They are equating dilapidated real estate to the original Penn Station and Farley PO. They are fearful of change - just like every community activism group when it comes to redevelopment plans.

But why is it necessary for you to shoehorn your casual dog whistle rhetoric into this by doing your best bitter and aggrieved Archie Bunker impression?

[JMKeynes]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

There's a guarantee I wouldn't trust.

These people are misguided. They're silly. They are equating dilapidated real estate to the original Penn Station and Farley PO. They are fearful of change - just like every community activism group when it comes to redevelopment plans.

But why is it necessary for you to shoehorn your casual dog whistle rhetoric into this by doing your best bitter and aggrieved Archie Bunker impression?

Because I like getting reactions like yours. It’s fun.

[Busy Bee]

So you admit you are a troll - the lowest type of person. A person so miserably sad they dedicate large amounts of time to make others so and incite turmoil all in a pathetic attempt at receiving a thrill of some kind? That sounds right to me.

[JMKeynes]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

So you admit you are a troll - the lowest type of person. A person so miserably sad they dedicate large amounts of time to make others so and incite turmoil all in a pathetic attempt at receiving a thrill of some kind? That sounds right to me.

It’s not being a troll. It’s comedic interaction.

You won’t find a nicer more peaceful guy than me.

[The New York Lion]

I agree with the esteemed Chris and JMKeynes, per the yooj.

It's a sign of America's immense wealth and privilege that we have folks in the world capital taking time out of their days to protest more skyscrapers.

These people can go live in Laramie or Poughkeepsie for all I care.

I will be very pleased when Governor Hooch and the Vornado Train run them over.

[The New York Lion]

CHOO CHOO!

Here comes billionaire Steven Roth and the VORNADO TRAIN! He's ready to run roughshod over your dilapidated one story building! Say goodbye to your Wendy's! Say hello to 75 stories of pure steel and glass! The modern pyramids of Giza!

Caput mundi! Caput mundi!

Governor Hooch looks on with a seductive smirk as the NIMBYs weep! The Hooch relishes the power!

New York! America!

[DCReid]

Their proposal to rebuild Penn Station close to the historic version is unreasonable and the MSG won't be moving. And they certainly should not expect the core of Manhattan to remain low rise in this area. In my opinion, if they really cared out NYC, they should be asking for a bigger residential component. 1800 residential units seems small to me and the developers could be asked to include more residential even if the residential buildings are taller.

[MAC123]

Originally Posted by DCReid

Their proposal to rebuild Penn Station close to the historic version is unreasonable and the MSG won't be moving. And they certainly should not expect the core of Manhattan to remain low rise in this area. In my opinion, if they really cared out NYC, they should be asking for a bigger residential component. 1800 residential units seems small to me and the developers could be asked to include more residential even if the residential buildings are taller.

"Their proposal to rebuild Penn Station close to the historic version is unreasonable"
Maybe but at least they could rebuild it in the same style.

" MSG won't be moving" That's not guaranteed.

As for the rest of it, I 100% agree. The residential units should be 10x at the least.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

There's a guarantee I wouldn't trust.

These people are misguided. They're silly. They are equating dilapidated real estate to the original Penn Station and Farley PO. They are fearful of change - just like every community activism group when it comes to redevelopment plans.

But why is it necessary for you to shoehorn your casual dog whistle rhetoric into this by doing your best bitter and aggrieved Archie Bunker impression?

Listen, you guys can have your personal disagreements via the PM.


As far as the NIMBYs, they are extremely misguided. The original Penn isn’t coming back. If they’d bothered to notice, they would see not only is 2 Penn not going anywhere, it’s growing.

A second thing is that even if you could rebuild the original Penn, you would still have the conditions you have today. The expansion would still be to the south.

A third thing is that the new, beautiful Moynihan Station serves long distance travelers. It’s where the NIMBY stheir absurd “funeral”.

A fourth thing is that even if the city decided the Dolans could no longer operate an arena on site, they’re still in control of it. Most likely there would be skyscrapers to replace it. So they should be careful what they wish for.

And finally, the rebuilt Penn will have a train hall larger than Moynihan and Grand Central combined. Nothing to complain about. And I know, because I have to come through the current mess every day.

[NYguy]

• Video Link

[Crawford]

Kind of a sidebar convo, but I have a feeling that the people who want to rebuild the original Penn Station don't understand Penn Station.

The current Penn Station is the original Penn Station, except with the headhouse demolished. It's basically the same footprint, just with the "pretty hat" lopped off. Same platforms, same concourse(s), etc. (yes, there has been some recent underground expansion, for NJT, LIRR and Moynihan work, but it's generally the same). Someone using Penn in 1960 would have a very similar daily experience absent the beautiful surface concourse.

In order to rebuild the "pretty hat", you'd have to demolish about 4 million square feet of trophy office space and MSG. Yes, MSG will probably one day be relocated, but not 1 and 2 PP. Any replacement will obviously look different than the pre-1960's Penn, simply bc the aboveground footprint is forever changed, and comes with air rights for millions of square feet of additional office space.

If MSG is removed, I'd want a grand surface concourse, but contemporary. A Disney version of old Penn, on a highly constrained site, would be silly, IMO.

[Busy Bee]

A Solomon's Temple reconstruction of old Penn Station has never been a serious proposal. As much as it would be an almost unbelievably scintilating specticle for preservationists, architecture enthusiasts, New Yorkers and a likely sizable amount of average laypeople inspired by being average citizens in such an amazing city - alas for the reasons you have laid out, and not to even mention the required demolition of 2 Penn, the track layout needs a total reworking, modernizing the platforms for its current use as a commuter terminal instead of the prized long distance passenger station for one of the nation's most storied fallen flag railroads. The headhouse was glorious. It has had a few detractors that downplayed its design magnificence, but over all it was undoubtadly a beautiful structure inside and out for the absolute vast majority of those that experienced it. But the truth of the matter is that a rebuilding of Penn is more of an aspirational exercise for those that feel the strongest about the tragedy of its loss that doesn't explore the myriad of inefficiencies and insufficientcies that a carbon copy rebuilding would superimpose over a rail hub that is used completely different, and at a significantly higher volume, than it ever was while it was still standing. The passenger volume coming from NJT and LIRR on a daily basis dwarfs any regular volumes coming from long distance named trains or PRR Jersey and LIRR operations even at its height. Long story short, old Penn, as magnificent as it was as a work of civic architecture, was built for a different age, a different reality, a different paradigm. The ideal aspirational modern through station, the hub of a vast metropolitain system would look very different, from the trackbed all the way up.

[NYguy]

^ The track layout is another reason you’re not going to get thru-running trains at Penn Station.

Originally Posted by Crawford

Kind of a sidebar convo, but I have a feeling that the people who want to rebuild the original Penn Station don't understand Penn Station.

The current Penn Station is the original Penn Station, except with the headhouse demolished. It's basically the same footprint, just with the "pretty hat" lopped off. Same platforms, same concourse(s), etc. (yes, there has been some recent underground expansion, for NJT, LIRR and Moynihan work, but it's generally the same). Someone using Penn in 1960 would have a very similar daily experience absent the beautiful surface concourse.

If MSG is removed, I'd want a grand surface concourse, but contemporary. A Disney version of old Penn, on a highly constrained site, would be silly, IMO.

A surface concourse would still put a large gap between the actual platforms and the main concourse. Even at Grand Central, which has 2 levels of tracks (and now a third with the LIRR), the main concourse, or Great Hall is below street level, using various ramps and escelators to move people around.

The biggest problems at Penn Station are the lack of circulation space, which is beiing addressed by the various terminal and concourse expansions; the low ceilings, which will be addressed by the eliminatiion of the upper level; and the lack of natural daylight, which is being addressed by opening the main hall up to daylight, a hall that will be larger that Grand Central’s concourse and Moynihan Hall (newly opened to daylight) combined. Once you put all these things together, the only argument that remains is that MSG is a turd. That could be addressed at this time as well. But were the Garden to move, those 4 msf of air rights, which the state isn’t even touching, will no doubt get used on site.

[Busy Bee]

Not all the tracks are through running capable, but several indeed could be. Not every service would need to through-run anyways. Not only that we're nowhere near a conversion about an umbrella regional rail agency that would have the authority to run a current NJT service onto a current LIRR service, and vice versa.

[NYguy]

https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/gov...-coming-months

Governor Hochul Announces Work to Redesign Penn Station Anticipated to Begin in the Coming Months
Redesign Set to Relieve Overcrowding and Improve Safety and Accessibility


September 21, 2022

Metropolitan Transportation Authority, in partnership with NJ TRANSIT and Amtrak, approved a contract for the redesign of Penn Station to a joint venture led by FXCollaborative Architects LLP and WSP USA Inc., with the acclaimed British architect John McAslan + Partners as collaborating architect.

McAslan + Partners designed the 2012 transformation of London's historic King's Cross Station, creating a 165-yard-long semi-circular departures concourse that integrates regional and intercity railroads with each other and with the London Underground while welcoming natural light from the sky through 1,000 glazed and translucent triangular roof panels.

"Since crews took a wrecking ball to the original Penn Station in 1963, generations of New Yorkers have been united in their call to build a new station worthy of New York," Governor Hochul said. "By approving the contract for the redesign of Penn Station, we move another step closer to getting it done. The transformation of Penn cannot come soon enough, and we look forward to building a world-class station that puts New Yorkers first, delivers a rider-focused transit experience, and a great neighborhood they deserve."

The FXCollaborative and WSP joint venture developed the Penn Station Master Plan unveiled last year that evaluated alternatives and created the preferred redesign plan for Penn Station as a single-level facility centered around a grand train hall with a 450-foot long sky-lit atrium between Madison Square Garden and 2 Penn Plaza. The design called for by the MTA's contract will advance that preferred alternative and will:

-Relieve overcrowding and improve passenger flow and orientation

-Improve safety by increasing platform and station egress and accessibility

-Alleviate the cramped, disjointed circulation areas with widened concourses and high ceilings

-Create a clear street presence that integrates with the surroundings

-Optimize retail and other revenue generation

-Integrate Penn Station with Moynihan Train Hall and the planned Penn Station Expansion

Janno Lieber, MTA Chair and CEO said, "Awarding the design contract is a huge step forward in Governor Hochul's effort to make Penn Station - once again! - a safe, world-class transit facility. The work will take place on an aggressive timetable. The opening of Grand Central Madison in just a few months provides us with a once-a-century opportunity to rebuild Penn Station. With a sizeable percentage of LIRR riders expected to shift their trips to Grand Central Madison, Penn Station will have five years with lower customer volumes before a new influx of customers arrives on Metro-North Railroad by 2027. The MTA wants to get most disruptive the work done before then, so I'm thrilled we are moving forward quickly with the design phase of this massive, long-delayed effort."

Empire State Development President, CEO and Commissioner Hope Knight said, "The long overdue revitalization of Penn Station will be a forceful catalyst for new investments and development within the community around it, benefitting residents, commuters, and visitors. As the nation's busiest transit hub, our region's economic future relies on Penn, and choosing a team to redesign the station is another significant milestone towards achieving Governor Hochul's vision for improving both Penn and the public realm that surrounds it."

Jamie Torres-Springer, President of MTA Construction & Development, said, "We are excited to recommend a team that has a track record of designing projects that achieve world-class design excellence while improving safety and being constructible, our singular focus as we seek to finally give Penn Station's 600,000 daily riders the station they deserve."

New York City Mayor Eric Adams said, "The time to fix Penn Station is now, and this is an important step in the right direction. New York City deserves a 21st-century transit hub as great as the city, and we are taking advantage of a once-in-a-generation opportunity to reconstruct Penn Station and revitalize the neighborhood. Our administration will continue working closely with our state partners to 'Get Stuff Done.'"

The recommendation for the design joint venture follows an open, competitive request-for-proposals process that was widely advertised and sent to 106 prequalified firms and attracted five proposals from firms and joint ventures that were reviewed and scored by representatives from MTA Construction & Development, Amtrak, and NJ TRANSIT, and assisted by a Technical Advisory Committee with additional representatives from the Long Island Rail Road, Empire State Development and the New York City Economic Development Corporation.

develop the preliminary station design and would last for one year. This contract includes options covering preliminary design for improvements to nearby subway stations and design and engineering support as the station reconstruction moves forward.

In keeping with the MTA's aggressive nation-leading program to encourage the growth and development of certified Disadvantaged Business Enterprises (DBE), the MTA's Department of Diversity and Civil Rights has assigned a 22.5 percent DBE goal to the contract.

[JSsocal]

Below are some helpful links to presentations for the transportation and public space presentations for the project, things which have needed to be quantified to get to this stage in the project. It also sheds some light on how the MTA/State/Vornado have been thinking about the project.

It's a good preview of the scope of what is to come, and there's a lot of interesting nuggets sprinkled in these.

https://new.mta.info/document/73216

https://new.mta.info/document/73216

The initial planning was also done by FXcollaborative, so we should see development of some of these design concepts now that they've been selected for the project.

[NYguy]

We can see here, if they do decide to build a residential tower on site 8 (Manhattan Mall), it would basically be the same as placing a tower over Macy's.



https://twitter.com/BoomerIm/status/...156037/photo/1

[chris08876]

New York City Approves Contract For $7 Billion Penn Station Redesign In Midtown, Manhattan

The Metropolitan Transportation Authority, in partnership with NJ Transit and Amtrak, approved a contract for the redesign of Penn Station, a project that could cost the city $7 billion. The joint venture project team includes architect of record FXCollaborative, global engineering firm WSP, and British design studio John McAslan and Partners, which will serve as a design consultant.

The base contract is valued at $57.9 million and includes preliminary design of the new station, improvements to nearby subway stations, and engineering support as station reconstruction moves forward.

“By approving the contract for the redesign of Penn Station, we move another step closer to getting it done,” said governor Kathy Hochul. “The transformation of Penn cannot come soon enough, and we look forward to building a world-class station that puts New Yorkers first, delivers a rider-focused transit experience, and a great neighborhood they deserve.”

FX Collaborative and WSP worked together on the Penn Station Master Plan unveiled in 2021. The full scope of work includes replacement of the current station with a 250,000-square-foot, single-level facility with improved interior organization and more space for an estimated 650,000 daily commuters. The facility will include a train hall about the combined size of Moynihan Train Hall and Grand Central Terminal’s main concourses.

The new station will also include retail and dining options, improved ticketing and waiting areas, additional elevators and escalators, and more station entrances and exits. The facility will also have an underground connection to the 34th Street-Herald Square subway station.

The current renovation does not include any added train capacity.

Outside the station, plans call for the construction of a 30,000-square-foot public plaza, increased bike lanes and docking stations, and widened sidewalks.

The masterplan also includes the construction of high-rise residential towers that could create 1,800 apartments including 540 permanently affordable homes.

“The time to fix Penn Station is now, and this is an important step in the right direction. New York City deserves a 21st-century transit hub as great as the city, and we are taking advantage of a once-in-a-generation opportunity to reconstruct Penn Station and revitalize the neighborhood,” said New York City mayor Eric Adams. “Our administration will continue working closely with our state partners to get stuff done.”

In line with the MTA’s mission to encourage the growth and development of certified Disadvantaged Business Enterprises (DBE), the MTA’s Department of Diversity and Civil Rights has assigned a 22.5 percent DBE goal to the contract.

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