As pandemic wanes, subway cars remain half-empty

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by dchan

3) Likewise, it also led to well-meaning but poorly-implemented policies like bail reform. While bail reform is great for low-threat or wrongly-accused people getting their freedom more easily, it also leads to repeat criminals (some of whom are violent and/or mentally unstable) being let out into society.
.

Just to nitpick but bail reform has been a longstanding goal of progressive DA's and fair policing/social justice advocates. The high profile George Floyd tragedy may have put an added spotlight on it but the two are not cause and effect.

[dchan]

Anecdotally, I've taken the subway over these past two Saturdays, and it has been a complete breeze compared with the weekday slog. My train route is on the F line from the Lexington Av-63rd St station to the 179th St terminal station in Jamaica, Queens.

The issue with the weekday commuting slog is that:
1. There are too many trains for the archaic & unreliably signaling system to handle
2. Too many new inexperienced train operators who drive the trains way too slowly and jerkily
3. Not enough train operators.

- The archaic signaling system simply can't handle the desired volume of trains to serve the massive amount of subway commuters during rush hour without slowing service to a crawl. The best trains are the lines that have already transitioned to the new signaling system (L and 7 trains)

- Inexperienced train operators don't really understand signals and speed postings well enough yet to know that they could probably go faster, so they end up slowing up trains behind them, creating a butterfly effect of train traffic.

- At terminal stations, without enough train operators to move the trains out of the station and into the back area and the Manhattan-bound side, the trains end up sitting at the station way too long. This keeps the next trains waiting at the next-to-last or further stations. I've often had to wait anywhere from 3-10 minutes during such sequences. It's not so bad for me because I use a e-scooter to get home afterwards (I also have the option of getting off at the previous stop 169th St, but it's less safe of a ride home), but its bad for commuters who end up missing a bus connection (often ones going to Nassau County).

That's why the Saturday rides have been better. The subways have a less-frequent, but still reasonable headways (about 5-10 minutes). Therefore, they can travel faster because don't get stuck behind "train traffic". And the terminal station is usually free of trains just sitting there, so train riders don't have to wait an excruciating 5 minutes at the next-to-last stop.

Also anecdotally, my preferred time to travel home is around 7-8:30pm for the same reasons. Less-frequent but still-reasonable headways for faster trains, while avoiding the overnight train maintenance issues.

[dchan]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

Just to nitpick but bail reform has been a longstanding goal of progressive DA's and fair policing/social justice advocates. The high profile George Floyd tragedy may have put an added spotlight on it but the two are not cause and effect.

Yes, I know that, but the George Floyd & ensuing BLM movement definitely accelerated the goal.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by LosAngelesSportsFan

In LA, it was very minimal pre pandemic.. Shit show since

Sorry, don't believe it. I rode transit in LA, and walked all around LA pre-pandemic, and remember lots of homeless, junkies and the like.

The idea that people decided to become junkies or homeless bc of the pandemic, and then simultaneously decided to become transit riders, sounds absurd.

[twister244]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Sorry, don't believe it. I rode transit in LA, and walked all around LA pre-pandemic, and remember lots of homeless, junkies and the like.

The idea that people decided to become junkies or homeless bc of the pandemic, and then simultaneously decided to become transit riders, sounds absurd.

Wrong again.

https://www.latimes.com/california/s...les-metro-plan

Violent crimes on the system are up 72% for the first four months of this year compared with 2021. And despite some people’s reservations about more cops on the system, riders’ top recommendation to improve safety was more security and police.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by twister244

Wrong again.

https://www.latimes.com/california/s...les-metro-plan

Ridership on LA trains soared in 2022 relative to 2021. It makes sense that crime would rise.

And this has nothing to do with the claim. What does "there are junkies and homeless on trains and there weren't before" have to do with "violent crime on trains is higher in 2022 than 2021"? Nothing.

2021 and 2022 were both pandemic years, not the beforetimes. A bum sleeping on a bench or a herion addict nodding off generally aren't committing violent crimes.

[twister244]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Ridership on LA trains soared in 2022 relative to 2021. It makes sense that crime would rise.

And this has nothing to do with the claim. What does "there are junkies and homeless on trains and there weren't before" have to do with "violent crime on trains is higher in 2022 than 2021"? Nothing.

2021 and 2022 were both pandemic years, not the beforetimes. A bum sleeping on a bench or a herion addict nodding off generally aren't committing violent crimes.

The point is that you and Craigs keep trying to push this narrative that crime isn't up on public transit post Covid, when it is. The numbers clearly show this.

And as I said before, this is *one* factor that is impacting people's decisions to take public transit.

Personally, I think in the long run, this is a short term trend. Cities will have to start making hard choices to rein crime in, and many younger folks (at least here in Chicago) seem to enjoy being in the city, so I suspect things will equalize out in the long run.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I do think, for a certain age cohort, it must be odd and isolating to be permanent WFH.

Lots of 25-35 year-olds are living in their mom's basement, "commuting" to the spare bedroom to "work".

It's not just video game guys, it's young women as well who ought to be out in the world but instead they're spending 40 hours "working" at a desk in their childhoood bedroom and another 40 hours sitting on the couch watching TV. Or maybe just getting angry on Twitter.

[Nouvellecosse]

While some people make some or most of their friends at work, for many others that's not the case. They already had their friends circle before even starting a particular job. Friends they met from school or university, church or other social group, online (I met a couple close friends on here for instance) volunteering, through other friend or family connections, etc. I've met one long term friend from work, but not from my current job even though I worked on site at my current job longer than the previous one.

It really depends on the job such as how collaborative it is and whether or not there's any spare time to socialize. My previous job was definitely more collaborative as I was in a training and support role so that made a difference. In my current job I'm less likely to socialize when working onsite than from home since I have less time available due to commuting plus being more anxious to get home after being out all day while the opposite is true with WFH. It also depends how much you like your work. If you're in a job you love and are passionate about, it's likely you'll have more in common with the people you're working with who have the same passion. But if you're just working to earn a living then you may not have much or anything in common with those you work with since the fact that you're both these doesn't say much about your passions or interests.

Reality is, it's pretty easy to offer judgement based on imagined views of other people's lives. They must be doing this... they must be doing that... all so unwholesome! But our assumptions about other people can just as easily be about us as about them.

[craigs]

Originally Posted by twister244

The point is that you and Craigs keep trying to push this narrative that crime isn't up on public transit post Covid, when it is. The numbers clearly show this.

I have not pushed any such "narrative" once, let alone repeatedly. I asked whether there has been an increase in crime on public transit or if it has been merely an increase in the perception of crime, and several forumers responded with articles showing increases in crime (and, one can assume, also the perception thereof).

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

Lots of 25-35 year-olds are living in their mom's basement, "commuting" to the spare bedroom to "work".

It's not just video game guys, it's young women as well who ought to be out in the world but instead they're spending 40 hours "working" at a desk in their childhoood bedroom and another 40 hours sitting on the couch watching TV. Or maybe just getting angry on Twitter.

Another cool story, bro.

[Crawford]

There are a bunch of narratives here. Everyone agrees transit ridership dropped during the pandemic, and ridership appears to be rising every quarter since.

The why, to me, is obvious. Remote work. If you look at the APTA numbers, Bay Area was extremely hard hit, and DC looks pretty rough too. Meanwhile, cities with few choice riders are comparatively unscathed. Bus networks are comparatively unscathed. Someone riding a Memphis bus probably isn't a software engineer. There are competing narratives that people aren't riding transit bc of crime or bums or junkies. I see no evidence for these claims.

Crime rose on transit, just as it rose most places from about summer 2020 to summer 2022. This is also (probably not coincidentally) the height of the pandemic. Crime has since fallen as the pandemic has waned. But the rise in ridership precedes the drop in crime, so not sure how anyone can make such a definitive correlation.

Then there's the bum/junkie issue. I don't think there's any relationship between a violent felon and a bum sleeping on a bench, so not sure why they're being conflated. I haven't seen any change in local transit, and I've ridden the subway, bus, ferry and commuter trains, before, during and after the pandemic. I've seen a huge alt-right narrative constantly reinforcing stereotypes about public transit, and this narrative is relentlessly pushed by people who push a multitude of lies about urban America, so I'm extremely skeptical.

I've seen the fallout. A family friend decided to not visit the Field Museum in Chicago (dinos for their kids) bc they heard (Fox News) that Chicago was too dangerous. Their kid wanted to ride the El train, but not happening. Of course these same people drive around all day, notwithstanding the 50,000 Americans killed on the road every year. But apparently it's too dangerous to visit a museum in a blue city.

[EastSideHBG]

Originally Posted by Crawford

The why, to me, is obvious. Remote work. If you look at the APTA numbers, Bay Area was extremely hard hit, and DC looks pretty rough too. Meanwhile, cities with few choice riders are comparatively unscathed. Bus networks are comparatively unscathed. Someone riding a Memphis bus probably isn't a software engineer. There are competing narratives that people aren't riding transit bc of crime or bums or junkies. I see no evidence for these claims.

Here many people who used rail instead of buses have moved to buses if they don't Uber because they are now safer in comparison. And what proof would you like, the pics of users shooting up during the morning commute in front of everyone? The blood on the seats and floors? The needles? I have those. So while they may not have committed a violent crime against anyone on those days they are creating an unsafe/unsanitary environment.

Crime rose on transit, just as it rose most places from about summer 2020 to summer 2022. This is also (probably not coincidentally) the height of the pandemic. Crime has since fallen as the pandemic has waned. But the rise in ridership precedes the drop in crime, so not sure how anyone can make such a definitive correlation.

Crime has not fallen here, it's been worse than ever.

Then there's the bum/junkie issue. I don't think there's any relationship between a violent felon and a bum sleeping on a bench, so not sure why they're being conflated. I haven't seen any change in local transit, and I've ridden the subway, bus, ferry and commuter trains, before, during and after the pandemic. I've seen a huge alt-right narrative constantly reinforcing stereotypes about public transit, and this narrative is relentlessly pushed by people who push a multitude of lies about urban America, so I'm extremely skeptical.

You cannot compare the transit in NYC to pretty much anywhere else in the country, as the entire culture is different there vs everywhere else in this area.

[LosAngelesSportsFan]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Sorry, don't believe it. I rode transit in LA, and walked all around LA pre-pandemic, and remember lots of homeless, junkies and the like.

The idea that people decided to become junkies or homeless bc of the pandemic, and then simultaneously decided to become transit riders, sounds absurd.

Believe it. It's much much worse now than it was pre pandemic. Not even close

[EastSideHBG]

Originally Posted by LosAngelesSportsFan

Believe it. It's much much worse now than it was pre pandemic. Not even close

In our case one of our main lines travels right through one of the biggest open air drug markets in the country. When regular commuters disappeared during the pandemic users and the homeless hopped on the trains and due to a lack in policing and enforcement they just hung out; and it is still going on now.

Video from this area a day ago, you can see the the elevated tracks and the station:

• Video Link


Of course I am not saying that the entire system is a mess right now but there has been an uptick in crime on other lines so it's a problem that needs to be addressed if we want to see more riders.

[mrnyc]

the biggest issue for nyc transit isnt crime and fallen ridership, its that a much larger percentage of the ridership than the pre-pandemic days does not pay at all. from being an occasional issue in the past its stunningly rampant these days.

[iheartthed]

WFH is definitely a huge factor in lower ridership, but I'll introduce another factor: alternative modes of transportation. Bikes and e-bikes have taken a number of people off the subways here in NYC since the pandemic started. I use my bike as transportation far more than I did pre-pandemic.

[dchan]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

WFH is definitely a huge factor in lower ridership, but I'll introduce another factor: alternative modes of transportation. Bikes and e-bikes have taken a number of people off the subways here in NYC since the pandemic started. I use my bike as transportation far more than I did pre-pandemic.

Definitely. I worked up the courage to finally go over the Queensboro Bridge on my scooter this past December and it has been a revelation. My ride from my UES apartment to my workplace in Dutch Kills (aka South Astoria or Northern LIC) now takes a fairly consistent 20-22 minutes. Whereas on days where I'm forced to ride the train, it's a crapshoot. Sometimes it can take 30 minutes on a good day, or 40 minutes on a day (like today) when I have to wait almost 10 minutes total for two different trains.

I not only save time, but $2.75 each time.

[chicagoguy1]

I recently moved back to Chicago from NYC, lived in Chicago from 2000-2012, and moved back here in September.. The redline here has become the wild wild west, it is beyond dirty, smells terrible, and filled with homeless smoking in the cars. It is really sad the CTA or city is not doing anything about the terrible conditions..

[Crawford]

I haven't ridden CTA since the pandemic, but I'm highly skeptical that all that Red Line misbehavior is pandemic-induced, or contributes to missing ridership.

I rode the Red Line many times pre-pandemic, and it was always the crazy line. The Brown Line was the quiet, yuppie-hipster-immigrant line, and the Red Line was always crazytrain, with all kinds of stupid shit, especially late at night.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by EastSideHBG

In our case one of our main lines travels right through one of the biggest open air drug markets in the country. When regular commuters disappeared during the pandemic users and the homeless hopped on the trains and due to a lack in policing and enforcement they just hung out; and it is still going on now.

Now this is definitely BS. Kensington has been a drug-addled mess for decades. It's the drug trafficking/junkie center of the Eastern seaboard. The strung out zombies and petty thieves long, long predate the pandemic.

Kensington has been a problem area since the 1970's, at least. Actually the first Rocky movie has a bunch of shots of Kensington, and it looked horrible then (first Rocky was released in 1976).