The big Airbnb debate

[MonkeyRonin]

Airbnb started off as a good idea, but it's become a bit of a monster. It was originally intended for people to use to rent out their spare rooms, or their homes & apartments when they were away. Which for users, provided a cheaper and more interesting experience than a hotel.

Ultimately it proved to be too successful of a business model and dedicated Airbnb-residences & operators proliferated. They're just as expensive as hotels now too, so I'm not really sure what the appeal is anymore. I was a big fan in the past, but personally I only use it to rent things like cabinets now, where there isn't really a hotel equivalent.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by whatnext

You should read up on the population decline in Venice, in a large part thanks to residents being pushed out in favour of AirBnBs.

The depopulation of Venice has been happening for decades - long before Airbnb (or even the internet) existed.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by bridgeoftea

As someone who loves to travel a lot. I honestly love Air BnB's.
It gives you the opportunity to really dive into the place / countries culture you are in. I've gotten to spend a week in Venice in a beautiful apartment for under 100 euros a night. Where as any hotel comparable would have been 4 times that. I love that it gives you the chance to buy groceries and cook local foods.

I will also point out, I never stay in a Air BnB that isn't a "super host". So far, I've never had a bad experience with them. (that could change on my next trip). Or rented in an area that I felt unsafe or saw nefarious activities going on lol.

To counter point I can see why those who are looking for long term rental or home buying are getting annoyed by the influx of Air BnBs. I feel like there has to be a middle ground (essentially back to where it was around 2018 ish). Raise the income tax for Air Bnbs to where it's not as profitable? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I have also had positive experiences with Airbnbs. I used to use them occasionally when travelling on vacation while my kids were very young, roughly from infancy to kindergarten age. Having a home's amenities (separate bedrooms, a kitchen, laundry) made life easier when travelling at those stages. And with an Airbnb it was generally far cheaper than getting a hotel room with similar suite-type amenities... upgraded hotel rooms are typically much more expensive than standard 2-bed rooms.

That said, it does involve a lot of headaches... not knowing what kind of owner you are dealing with, having to tidy up and do chores, the general inconsistencies as compared to knowing what to expect from a particular hotel brand, even just the feeling of being unwelcome by neighbours. While my experiences were good, I was also happy to go back to hotels. I am pretty unlikely to use Airbnb again at this point... I'd only do it if I was unable to find a hotel room at (to me) a reasonable price point.

[mleblanc]

Originally Posted by whatnext

You should read up on the population decline in Venice, in a large part thanks to residents being pushed out in favour of AirBnBs.

Not just Venice, but many touristy cities across Europe. This video explains it in depth, focusing on Prague:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHr7GXuqzm0&

[manny_santos]

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I'm very much pro-AirBNB, insofar as it's regulated properly. I've been a big user of AirBNB in my travels and I have 3 upcoming bookings with them for travel later this year.

I personally see nothing wrong with it if it's a spare room in a house or apartment where people live. It gives me a place to stay that has several benefits:

- In some cities, the price is considerably cheaper than hotels or motels
- Many of them include kitchen facilities, which allows for me to cook while I'm on vacation and not have to eat out for every meal. I have never seen a hotel with a full kitchen.
- In some instances their locations are far more convenient than hotels, especially if you want to stay in an area that is not in a downtown area or near an airport. As an example, last year I needed a place to stay in Seattle that was close to good public transit and was within a certain budget. AirBNB was the only option, and I both saved hundreds of dollars and stayed in a much better neighbourhood than where the hotels are all located.
- They are incredibly useful if you're moving to a new city and need to stay somewhere for 2-4 weeks while looking for a permanent place to live. I did this when I first moved to BC in 2020, most landlords will not rent to someone who is unable to visit the unit in person (for good reason) and just as importantly most will not offer leases of less than one year.
- They are also useful for temporary work assignments, such as a 3-month term in another city. Again, landlords will typically not rent to someone for 3 months, and hotels for that length of time are cost-prohibitive.

The proliferation of AirBNB is, in part, due to the hotel industry not adapting, as well as artificially limiting the supply of hotel rooms in many cities. In Vancouver there was a recent report showing a projected shortfall of hotel rooms in the coming years. This economic condition is a similar one that led to the proliferation of ride sharing apps, the taxi industry refused to adapt to consumer preferences and still refuses to adapt.

What I do not support is whole condos being used solely as AirBNB units, or so-called "AirBNB hotels". However I think the nuance around the different types of units offered is often missed in the discussion of AirBNB. There's a big difference between an AirBNB "hotel" and a spare room in someone's house or apartment.

In short I put part of the blame for the prominence of AirBNB on the hotel industry. Put hotels in places where people want to stay and not just in touristy areas, build more of them, and offer things like kitchenettes at a price that is competitive with AirBNBs. Then maybe I'll use hotels more in my travels. On the flip side governments also need to take a greater role in ensuring enough housing is being built, including affordable housing.

[MonkeyRonin]

All good points, and from a user perspective there is definitely a lot to like about Airbnb. I've had great experiences with it in the past - being able to stay in some really cool spaces, interesting neighbourhoods, and meeting some great hosts. More recently though, I find these kinds of experiences are rarer and have largely been crowded out by impersonal, professionally-managed "ghost hotel" type arrangements. The prices also seem a lot less competitive now.

Either way, you raise a great point that its success has been the result of the inflexibility and lack of innovation in the hotel industry. The problem with Airbnb though, is that unlike Uber or other tech "disruptors" that solely benefit consumers (at the expense of traditional industries), its success is actively detrimental to the livability of our cities as it consumes housing supply. Makes it harder for supply to meet population growth demand when x% of units are bought to be used as short term rentals instead of places to live.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

All good points, and from a user perspective there is definitely a lot to like about Airbnb. I've had great experiences with it in the past - being able to stay in some really cool spaces, interesting neighbourhoods, and meeting some great hosts. More recently though, I find these kinds of experiences are rarer and have largely been crowded out by impersonal, professionally-managed "ghost hotel" type arrangements. The prices also seem a lot less competitive now.

The price is way less appealing now, for sure. Until airbnb got really big 5-10 years ago, it was generally cheaper than hotels. Now it's not. In most places airbnbs will be by and large the same price as a hotel.

At the same price, I'll take the hotel every time. No weirdness, and unpleasant surprises are rare, there's also housekeeping so I don't have to worry about it.

However, in very pricy/in demand destinations, you can still save a fair bit of money with airbnb. I've done that with some of the European capitals, in Maui and other hotspots where hotels are relatively expensive.

[casper]

Originally Posted by esquire

The price is way less appealing now, for sure. Until airbnb got really big 5-10 years ago, it was generally cheaper than hotels. Now it's not. In most places airbnbs will be by and large the same price as a hotel.

At the same price, I'll take the hotel every time. No weirdness, and unpleasant surprises are rare, there's also housekeeping so I don't have to worry about it.

However, in very pricy/in demand destinations, you can still save a fair bit of money with airbnb. I've done that with some of the European capitals, in Maui and other hotspots where hotels are relatively expensive.

I have noticed a shift with hotels. Even high end brands like Sheraton. House keeping is generally now only offered on request and not by default. Partially a left over from COVID measures and perhaps they discovered most people don't need someone to change towels and make their bed for them each day.

That said, I prefer hotels over airbnb. You have a front desk you can go down to to deal with any questions or issues.

The biggest issue is it is may be more profitable to do airbnb vrs long term rentals. Perhaps that is what is driving up the cost of long term rentals. Not certain.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Airbnb started off as a good idea, but it's become a bit of a monster.

Give capitalists and landlords something and they'll eventually take it to such lengths that it's no longer viable for the 'normal' person. Nowadays it's likely better to simply stay in a hotel; ditto for taking a taxi over using Uber. Logical ending point once owners are able to realize how much capital they can squeeze out of consumers.

Originally Posted by casper

I have noticed a shift with hotels. Even high end brands like Sheraton. House keeping is generally now only offered on request and not by default. Partially a left over from COVID measures and perhaps they discovered most people don't need someone to change towels and make their bed for them each day.

My recent hotel stays had housekeeping on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays, or on request.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by casper

I have noticed a shift with hotels. Even high end brands like Sheraton. House keeping is generally now only offered on request and not by default. Partially a left over from COVID measures and perhaps they discovered most people don't need someone to change towels and make their bed for them each day.

That said, I prefer hotels over airbnb. You have a front desk you can go down to to deal with any questions or issues.

The biggest issue is it is may be more profitable to do airbnb vrs long term rentals. Perhaps that is what is driving up the cost of long term rentals. Not certain.

I stayed in a hotel last year in Montreal that had coffee mugs, but there was a $50 charge if you used the mug and didn’t clean it.

[big T]

I was surprised to read some anti-Airbnb views here and elsewhere.
I’ve never been a host, but as a guest there is definitely a huge benefit for longer stays at least. I don’t think I’d enjoy staying at a hotel for stays longer than a week, plus you get a ton more flexibility when choosing a space that fits the particular needs of your stay (say, a dedicated room to use as an office).

Maybe the answer is to heavily disincentivize Airbnb stays shorter than 3-4 days (where a hotel is usually more convenient anyway), but outright banning it would leave a whole market segment unserved imo.

[urbandreamer]

While I hate how airbnbs have driven up rents and caused so many people trouble, I did need to use airbnbs across Canada because 1) I was traveling with my elderly mother 2) we both have specialized diets that can't be accommodated in cheap motels/hotels or restaurants 3) got to explore different areas of Vancouver for example, staying in PoCo I finally got to hang out in Port Moody and Belcarra. Other than a fantastic rural property south of Nanaimo, they all kind of sucked with their generic grey/beige paint, ikea furniture and low overnight temperature. I did have to clean everything and admittedly got deals by booking 6 months ahead ($75/night in North Vancouver for 4 people!)

[TRiToNDREyJA]

This is a bit long winded and very opinionated, just giving a heads up.

Very pro AirBnb myself, but it does need to be regulated so that it doesn't aggravate any housing crisis.

Value per dollar with hotels absolutely sucks for my kind of travel for example. I want to cook, I want to store plenty food, I want to stay in more intimate areas of cities, I want to be able to go on trips with multiple people without sharing rooms or beds or reserving more than 1 hotel room. For trips longer than a few days I want to feel like I'm home when I return to my lodging, not like I'm crammed with other tourists in an illusionary homespace.

Airbnbs often have courteous hosts and guide books telling about local shops & restaurants so that when I eat out, I'm not just going to some large chain restaurant every time. For others, I'm sure Airbnb for family visits and gatherings is a much better option (Family gatherings, visiting terminally ill loved ones, elderly travelers wanting a full space, and plenty more are examples heard from guests my family have hosted in their suites).

Anecdotal, but near everyone I've talked to around my age will book Airbnb over hotels every time when traveling. Hotels don't fit the bill for everyone, and they aren't changing with the times either.

Here in Winnipeg, my family hosts many Airbnbs & maintains them well. They are by far and away more profitable than long-term rentals, while still being competitive with hotels (often cheaper), with so much less headache. I have been astounded over the last few years seeing how much less bullshit my parents deal with running Airbnb vs their long term rentals.

Honestly, the disparity between the pros and cons of running/owning long vs short term rentals feels so problematic to me(And I say this even from the hosts POV. The gap is too large and gives me a bad feeling).

Calling Airbnb a cancer is very brash imo and I'd say "ok boomer" to that narrative if I didn't know any better, but the truth is that important conversations about this travel model do need to be had. (I never use that stupid saying, but I imagine people who do feel similar to the way I did when I read this thread)

It fills a travel niche perfectly & has a undeniably valid place in tourism. It just needs to be better integrated into city/province systems so that it can continue to thrive without bleeding everything else dry.

The hosts who get upset over the idea of any regulations at all rub me the wrong way (quite strongly tbh), but not as much as the people who want to see Airbnb's model die. Times, desires & needs are changing, and working with newer solutions while finding ways to make them sustainable is much better than trying to force the idea that hotels and what's existed before are good enough for all & will be for eternity.

[casper]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Give capitalists and landlords something and they'll eventually take it to such lengths that it's no longer viable for the 'normal' person. Nowadays it's likely better to simply stay in a hotel; ditto for taking a taxi over using Uber. Logical ending point once owners are able to realize how much capital they can squeeze out of consumers.

I am all for Uber. I had some questionable taxi drivers over the year.

I think the issue with airbnb is you own an apartment you can potentially make significantly more money running it under that model than renting it out. However running and airbnb is far more labour intensive. If you have to hire someone to clean between rentals and manage handling over keys and inspecting the property it eats in to that profit quite a bit. If the owner is doing it they may or may not value their time.

Originally Posted by JHikka

My recent hotel stays had housekeeping on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays, or on request.

It is weird. I am usually asked if I want housekeeping or not. Some chain at check in offer to give you extra loyalty points for passing on the cleaning service. It is a clear shift away from daily service just being taken for granted. I know some larger hotels in Victoria (and likely other cities) contract out that maid service to on outside contractor, so likely a way of dealing with labour shortages as well save some money.

[Loco101]

I've always wondered what kind of liabilities and Airbnb rental has and what kind and amount of insurance is needed. Are the places that are rented inspected at all?

I almost did Airbnb is some small places in Northern Ontario that didn't have motels but ended up deciding against it.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by casper

I am all for Uber. I had some questionable taxi drivers over the year.

Absolutely. Neither are perfect.

Originally Posted by casper

I think the issue with airbnb is you own an apartment you can potentially make significantly more money running it under that model than renting it out. However running and airbnb is far more labour intensive. If you have to hire someone to clean between rentals and manage handling over keys and inspecting the property it eats in to that profit quite a bit. If the owner is doing it they may or may not value their time.

A lot of the loss in value for Airbnb lately has been property owners shifting that responsibility onto users themselves, by way of things like making people clean the unit, using lockboxes for keys, or an array of other requirements that save the owner from ever having to be present.

In its early days Airbnb really was good. It was an improved couchsurfing, basically staying with people if they had an extra bed or room. Then over the years it shifted more to investment types, renovating new units out of nothing, renting out entire apartments, then buildings...Airbnb went from crashing at a friend's house to becoming a part-time tenant. It went from giving money to a person to giving it to a corp.

I'll be staying at an Airbnb in Germany in a few months and the only way I can really be happy with using it is because i'll be replacing the owner of the unit for two weeks as they will be travelling out of country.

Originally Posted by casper

It is weird. I am usually asked if I want housekeeping or not. Some chain at check in offer to give you extra loyalty points for passing on the cleaning service. It is a clear shift away from daily service just being taken for granted. I know some larger hotels in Victoria (and likely other cities) contract out that maid service to on outside contractor, so likely a way of dealing with labour shortages as well save some money.

I'm personally fine with it as I assume it's more environmentally friendly not to be cleaning the same sheets every day, over and over again. I'm trying to think of the positive of the amount of energy and water and detergent saved on not having cleaning be mandatory every day.

[LightingGuy]

AirBnB is great, especially for multiple night stays. Having access to a kitchen, proper bathroom, laundry, etc for the same price (or less) than a hotel is a huge perk. And if you're traveling with a group it's a much better deal.

There are seedy ABBs, but there are also seedy hotels and motels - so do your research, and don't go for the cheapest.

RE: It making the housing crisis worse - ABBs aren't the cause of that problem.. you have your local city council's glacial application review process's to thank for that, as well as the BoC's mismanagement of our currency. Don't blame this on small busi ess owners who are fulfilling a need in the market.

[niwell]

At this point it's a bit of a tossup whether or not cabs are worse than uber - though the latter is certainly more convenient. I'm half convinced a large proportion of uber drivers would drive into a brick wall if their GPS told them too. Had to yell at people for making absurdly dangerous moves in traffic multiple times, not to mention countless times almost getting hit as a pedestrian or cyclist by a car with the Uber/Lyft logo. It's a far cry from the earlier days when uber was both a nicer ride and cheaper - but that was always the business plan.


I'm pretty much in complete agreement with Monkeyronin on airbnb. I've used it dozens of times and mostly had good experiences, but it's straying too far from the original concept. The latest places I've stayed in (all superhosted) were clearly units put into use as short-term rentals and nothing else - didn't even bother to put art on the walls. I did much prefer places that were still clearly someone's actual house, or at least a secondary unit. Always enjoyed when the host left a note saying to feel free to have the leftover beer in the fridge or use whatever's in the cupboard. I get that people sometimes get weirded out by stuff like that, but that's what hotels are for. This is what we are planning to do with our house in Napanee, though at this point I'm thinking we won't use the airbnb platform and focus more on ones where it's clear you're renting someone's house/cottage.

Lately I've actually gone back to staying in hotels for shorter stays and found it to be slightly cheaper once cleaning fees are taken into account. The big downside can be location, but for smaller cities that tends not to matter as much. For longer stays or with a bigger group I would likely still go airbnb. It was also a lifesaver in South Africa where finding a non-corporate apartment as a foreigner is virtually impossible and many airbnbs have highly preferential monthly rates.

While I don't think they are the main driver of the housing crisis, you certainly can't discount their effect on desirable neighbourhoods around the world. Has nothing to do with the pace of the development process as we are often talking about apartments in areas that aren't really replaceable. Claiming Toronto council doesn't approve stuff fast enough has nothing to do with the effect on rents in New Orleans - a place where I've used airbnb but don't think I will anymore. Heard far too many stories from locals about displaced renters and the effects on rent even in areas that aren't... great (also seen lots of listings claiming Bywater or Irish Channel yet are actually in semi-dangerous locations).

At the end of the day if these really are "small business owners" then treat them as such - regulate and tax appropriately. Taking a 6 unit apartment building in Kensington Market and renting it out solely as airbnb isn't the same as renting out your place when you travel - now if you're paying commercial property tax rates and have to adhere to commercial safety standards then go for it.

[bridgeoftea]

Originally Posted by niwell

At this point it's a bit of a tossup whether or not cabs are worse than uber - though the latter is certainly more convenient. I'm half convinced a large proportion of uber drivers would drive into a brick wall if their GPS told them too. Had to yell at people for making absurdly dangerous moves in traffic multiple times, not to mention countless times almost getting hit as a pedestrian or cyclist by a car with the Uber/Lyft logo. It's a far cry from the earlier days when uber was both a nicer ride and cheaper - but that was always the business plan.


I'm pretty much in complete agreement with Monkeyronin on airbnb. I've used it dozens of times and mostly had good experiences, but it's straying too far from the original concept. The latest places I've stayed in (all superhosted) were clearly units put into use as short-term rentals and nothing else - didn't even bother to put art on the walls. I did much prefer places that were still clearly someone's actual house, or at least a secondary unit. Always enjoyed when the host left a note saying to feel free to have the leftover beer in the fridge or use whatever's in the cupboard. I get that people sometimes get weirded out by stuff like that, but that's what hotels are for. This is what we are planning to do with our house in Napanee, though at this point I'm thinking we won't use the airbnb platform and focus more on ones where it's clear you're renting someone's house/cottage.

Lately I've actually gone back to staying in hotels for shorter stays and found it to be slightly cheaper once cleaning fees are taken into account. The big downside can be location, but for smaller cities that tends not to matter as much. For longer stays or with a bigger group I would likely still go airbnb. It was also a lifesaver in South Africa where finding a non-corporate apartment as a foreigner is virtually impossible and many airbnbs have highly preferential monthly rates.

While I don't think they are the main driver of the housing crisis, you certainly can't discount their effect on desirable neighbourhoods around the world. Has nothing to do with the pace of the development process as we are often talking about apartments in areas that aren't really replaceable. Claiming Toronto council doesn't approve stuff fast enough has nothing to do with the effect on rents in New Orleans - a place where I've used airbnb but don't think I will anymore. Heard far too many stories from locals about displaced renters and the effects on rent even in areas that aren't... great (also seen lots of listings claiming Bywater or Irish Channel yet are actually in semi-dangerous locations).

At the end of the day if these really are "small business owners" then treat them as such - regulate and tax appropriately. Taking a 6 unit apartment building in Kensington Market and renting it out solely as airbnb isn't the same as renting out your place when you travel - now if you're paying commercial property tax rates and have to adhere to commercial safety standards then go for it.

One thing I love about Uber is knowing who is picking you up, you can see the license plate number. And then you can follow the map knowing they are taking the direct route, not trying to take "the scenic route" to increase fares.

One side point about Air BnB, if you can book early it is considerably cheaper. I booked 5 locations in Spain in August 2022 for September 2023 and worked out to be less than $60 per night CAD for 5 star, super host apartments. I do understand not everyone can plan that far in advance though.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by niwell

At this point it's a bit of a tossup whether or not cabs are worse than uber - though the latter is certainly more convenient. I'm half convinced a large proportion of uber drivers would drive into a brick wall if their GPS told them too. Had to yell at people for making absurdly dangerous moves in traffic multiple times, not to mention countless times almost getting hit as a pedestrian or cyclist by a car with the Uber/Lyft logo. It's a far cry from the earlier days when uber was both a nicer ride and cheaper - but that was always the business plan.

I'll pay a small premium these days to take a taxi where I can be comfortable knowing the driver is familiar with downtown, knows the best and fastest way to get there given the time of day/traffic conditions, and doesn't drive 10 km/h below the speed limit.

Twice now I've been in an uber where the stupid GPS has told them to get on the Gardiner going west at York, and then immediately get off the Spadina ramp instead of just going down Lakeshore. I was on my phone and not paying attention and both drivers merged into traffic on the Gardiner, missed the off ramp, and we had to sit in traffic for 10+ minutes to get to the next exit at Dunn, then drive backwards through King West. Now I'm watching the road the entire time I'm in an uber which isn't a great experience especially if you're paying $25 surge pricing.