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  #61  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2023, 7:29 PM
Docere Docere is offline
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Originally Posted by edale View Post
So, uhh, how about those most educated states...
Advanced degrees are nearly as common in Massachusetts and Maryland as all college degrees are in Mississippi, West Virginia and Arkansas.
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  #62  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2023, 7:34 PM
edale edale is offline
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Advanced degrees are nearly as common in Massachusetts and Maryland as all college degrees are in Mississippi, West Virginia and Arkansas.
Do you have stats for the Canadian provinces too? That would be pretty interesting. Of the most populated provinces, I'd guess BC would have the highest percent of college educated. Saskatchewan would be last? But really I have no clue.
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  #63  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2023, 7:40 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
They are fairly comparable professionally even if the path to entry differs somewhat. MBA programs are (were) a huge cash cow which means universities competing with one another loosening some requirements. Law schools are not as prolific and more selective on average.
I'm not even sure that I agree with this part. The MBA is a generalist degree, as there's no specific profession that requires it as a barrier to entry. It can be applied to a range of industries. OTOH, MDs and JDs are specialist degrees that are barriers to entry for their respective industries.
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  #64  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2023, 7:53 PM
Gantz Gantz is offline
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
I'm not even sure that I agree with this part. The MBA is a generalist degree, as there's no specific profession that requires it as a barrier to entry. It can be applied to a range of industries. OTOH, MDs and JDs are specialist degrees that are barriers to entry for their respective industries.
In finance, those are called "certifications", like a CPA for accounting for example or CAS to become an actuary.
I wouldn't call a CPA equivalent to JD even though it is a barrier of entry to join the profession. MBA is a lot more equivalent to JD, both in terms of requirements and length of study (and frankly even difficulty of material being learned). JD is not on the same level as PhD or MD, either in requirement for admission to the program or length of study. Realistically, both MBAs and JDs finish schooling at the same time. Those tracks you go to after finishing bachelors and after taking admission tests (such as LSAT and GMAT).
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  #65  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2023, 7:54 PM
Docere Docere is offline
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Originally Posted by edale View Post
Do you have stats for the Canadian provinces too? That would be pretty interesting. Of the most populated provinces, I'd guess BC would have the highest percent of college educated. Saskatchewan would be last? But really I have no clue.
I'll post some stats in a bit.

In Canada, the percentage of degrees is a bit lower. Two reasons in particular:

What they call colleges in Canada (as opposed to universities) do vocational training and don't grant bachelor's degrees. You can get a bachelor's degrees in something like hotel management in the US, in Canada there's no degree for that. Twice as many Canadians I believe have college certificates or diplomas as Americans have associate's degrees. Going to community college and then transferring to a 4-year institution isn't really a thing in Canada; there's more separation of college and university.

There's fewer graduate degrees because there hasn't been an explosion of the master's. For instance, teachers spend about as much time in university as teachers with masters' in the US, but they don't have the masters' as a license to practice degree, with University of Toronto being the exception). Instead you get a Bachelor of Education which is one or two years in length. It can be done concurrently or consecutively, but you do a longer degree. So the proportion of teachers with graduate degrees is lower.
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  #66  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2023, 7:57 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Does Canada have proportionally fewer grad professional programs? Totally anecdotal, but don't remember many Canadians in undergrad (outside of the hockey team) yet there were a bunch in grad school and a bunch when I co-taught a class. All these schools were in large institutions relatively close to Canada.

Or maybe it makes more sense for Canadians to study undergrad in Canada, with low(er) tuitions, and then in U.S. for professional or postgrad programs, given greater salaries and potentially broader career options.
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  #67  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2023, 7:59 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by Gantz View Post
In finance, those are called "certifications", like a CPA for accounting for example or CAS to become an actuary.
I wouldn't call a CPA equivalent to JD even though it is a barrier of entry to join the profession.
Yes, like the Bar Exam for law. But like CPAs, you need to fulfill some prerequisite before you can take the exam to be certified. The most typical way to fulfill the requirement to take the Bar is obtaining a JD. Similarly, you can't enter a medical residency program without a MD.
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  #68  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2023, 8:05 PM
Docere Docere is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Does Canada have proportionally fewer grad programs? Totally anecdotal, but don't remember many Canadians in undergrad (outside of the hockey team) yet there were a bunch in grad school and a bunch when I co-taught a class. All these schools were in large institutions relatively close to Canada.

Or maybe it makes more sense for Canadians to study undergrad in Canada, with low(er) tuitions, and then in U.S. for professional or postgrad programs, given greater salaries and potentially broader career options.
Yes, a lot of Canadians cross the border as there are fewer professional schools and admission is much more competitive.

For instance there are colleges in Buffalo that train teachers in Ontario.

In addition, elite American universities attract Canadians for graduate school.
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  #69  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2023, 8:09 PM
Gantz Gantz is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Does Canada have proportionally fewer grad professional programs? Totally anecdotal, but don't remember many Canadians in undergrad (outside of the hockey team) yet there were a bunch in grad school and a bunch when I co-taught a class. All these schools were in large institutions relatively close to Canada.

Or maybe it makes more sense for Canadians to study undergrad in Canada, with low(er) tuitions, and then in U.S. for professional or postgrad programs, given greater salaries and potentially broader career options.
Canada is simply a smaller country so they do not have the same variety and depth of grad and PhD level programs. There is not enough human resources in society for that. This is the same in all low population countries, where you have to go somewhere else if you want to specialize in a particular field (e. g. Swedes go to Germany, etc).
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  #70  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2023, 8:11 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
I'll post some stats in a bit.

In Canada, the percentage of degrees is a bit lower. Two reasons in particular:

What they call colleges in Canada (as opposed to universities) do vocational training and don't grant bachelor's degrees. You can get a bachelor's degrees in something like hotel management in the US, in Canada there's no degree for that. Twice as many Canadians I believe have college certificates or diplomas as Americans have associate's degrees. Going to community college and then transferring to a 4-year institution isn't really a thing in Canada; there's more separation of college and university.

There's fewer graduate degrees because there hasn't been an explosion of the master's. For instance, teachers spend about as much time in university as teachers with masters' in the US, but they don't have the masters' as a license to practice degree, with University of Toronto being the exception). Instead you get a Bachelor of Education which is one or two years in length. It can be done concurrently or consecutively, but you do a longer degree. So the proportion of teachers with graduate degrees is lower.
That is indeed a distinction in Canada. Any institution that gives out degrees is a University. A College gives out certificates or diplomas and study is more related to a specific trade or specific training, whether blue or white collared.
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  #71  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2023, 8:14 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Another interesting difference is relative size. University of Toronto is gigantic. I believe it would be the largest university in the U.S., by student count.

Many of the Ivies are increasing undergraduate population, and encountering huge resistance that the institutions are already too large. These are schools with typically 5-7k undergraduates. They're proposing growing by (say) 1k students and getting major pushback. Granted, their graduate programs can be larger, but the largest Ivies have maybe 25k students total.

University of Toronto's website claims roughly 100k students. The vast majority are undergraduates. University of Michigan, which is enormous, is half the size. Even weirder, if you visit the two campuses, I don't think you'd ever guess Toronto had a larger student population.
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  #72  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2023, 8:20 PM
Gantz Gantz is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Another interesting difference is relative size. University of Toronto is gigantic. I believe it would be the largest university in the U.S., by student count.

Many of the Ivies are increasing undergraduate population, and encountering huge resistance that the institutions are already too large. These are schools with typically 5-7k undergraduates. They're proposing growing by (say) 1k students and getting major pushback. Granted, their graduate programs can be larger, but the largest Ivies have maybe 25k students total.

University of Toronto's website claims roughly 100k students. The vast majority are undergraduates. University of Michigan, which is enormous, is half the size. Even weirder, if you visit the two campuses, I don't think you'd ever guess Toronto had a larger student population.
University of Toronto is similar to CUNY/SUNY/University of California/University of Texas systems. It has multiple campuses/colleges within it.
I guess the most equivalent would be City University of New York, not like the state systems.
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  #73  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2023, 8:31 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Looks like the 100k figure for U. Toronto combines all of the campuses. The main UT campus has about 65k students, which is a bit larger than the flagship campuses for Michigan and California (both in the 50k range), but not substantially larger.
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  #74  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2023, 8:44 PM
Docere Docere is offline
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Canada:

Bachelor's degree or higher 33%
Advanced degree 10%
Professional degree (JD, MD etc.) 1.5%
Master's degree 1.5%
Earned doctorate 1.1%

US:

Bachelor's degree or higher 35%
Advanced degree 13.7%
Master's degree 10.7%
Professional degree 1.4%
Doctoral degree 2%
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  #75  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2023, 8:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
I'm not even sure that I agree with this part. The MBA is a generalist degree, as there's no specific profession that requires it as a barrier to entry. It can be applied to a range of industries. OTOH, MDs and JDs are specialist degrees that are barriers to entry for their respective industries.
So is a JD. It's an entry point to practice law but there are so many legal specialities; tax, real-estate, constitutional law, criminal, etc. Even an MD is generalist to a point, you need to go on and do a residency/ internship/ fellowship to get into your specialty.

There's just no governing body requiring business professionals to have an MBA; the labor market dictates that.
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  #76  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2023, 8:49 PM
Docere Docere is offline
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University degree

Ontario 36.8%
British Columbia 35%
Yukon 32.9%
Alberta 31.1%
Nova Scotia 29.8%
Quebec 29.5%
Manitoba 28.8%
Prince Edward Island 27.4%
Northwest Territories 26.4%
Saskatchewan 25.8%
New Brunswick 23.5%
Newfoundland 20.8%
Nunavut 14.1%
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  #77  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2023, 9:30 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
So is a JD. It's an entry point to practice law but there are so many legal specialities; tax, real-estate, constitutional law, criminal, etc. Even an MD is generalist to a point, you need to go on and do a residency/ internship/ fellowship to get into your specialty.

There's just no governing body requiring business professionals to have an MBA; the labor market dictates that.
That last sentence was my entire point. JDs and MDs are not generalist degrees. They are intended for industry specific training. The MBA is not industry specific.

Accounting degree = industry specific
Architecture degree = industry specific
Engineering degree = industry specific
Law degree = industry specific
Medical degree = industry specific

Business Administration degree = not industry specific
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  #78  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2023, 9:45 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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A law degree isn't particularly industry specific, though. Plenty of MBAs and JDs and JD-MBAs working together in financial services, tech and corporate world at large. Tons of non-practicing JDs.
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  #79  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2023, 11:23 PM
Docere Docere is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
A law degree isn't particularly industry specific, though. Plenty of MBAs and JDs and JD-MBAs working together in financial services, tech and corporate world at large. Tons of non-practicing JDs.
Right, but all lawyers must have the JD. There is no occupation that absolutely requires the MBA.
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  #80  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2023, 5:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Canada:

Bachelor's degree or higher 33%
Advanced degree 10%
Professional degree (JD, MD etc.) 1.5%
Master's degree 1.5%
Earned doctorate 1.1%

US:

Bachelor's degree or higher 35%
Advanced degree 13.7%
Master's degree 10.7%
Professional degree 1.4%
Doctoral degree 2%
Thanks for doing the leg work on this data.

Makes me think we should do a poll here asking forumers their most advanced degree.
I Would be interested in seeing how it compares vs nationally. I would figure a university degree or an advanced degree would be higher than those numbers you provided.

BTW I'm surprised that 35% of Americans have a Bachelor degree or higher.
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