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  #21  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2023, 8:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Yuri View Post
No direct flights between Cleveland and Cincinnati?!?! .
it's true. There are no direct commercial flights between the two.

if you wanna fly from cleveland to cincy, then you're likely gonna transfer in:

detroit for delta

ohare for united or america

midway for southwest
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Feb 2, 2023 at 9:55 PM.
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  #22  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2023, 8:25 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
This is because there are no hubs in midsized cities. Only Chicago, Detroit, and Minneapolis have hubs now. To fly from Cincinnati to Cleveland you have to go through either Chicago or Detroit. This is a major reason why the state of Ohio should be pioneering a rail network.
I'm surprised there isn't currently Amtrak service between the three Cs. But it is part of the proposed Amtrak expansion that came out a couple years ago:

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  #23  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2023, 8:39 PM
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Most Americans drive short distances. There isn't any obvious reason why you would need air or rail service between short distances, though it would be nice.

There's basically nonstop urbanization between Tri-Cities, MI and Toledo, OH, a distance of over 150 miles, but that doesn't mean a train would work. It's pretty rare to have good conditions for rail in the U.S. context.
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  #24  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2023, 9:13 PM
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The Cin-Day corridor is one of those locations where it almost makes too much sense to have commuter rail. Cincinnati and Dayton are only 50 miles apart, and there's a string of 30,000-60,000 pop. cities every ~15 miles all the way up to Lima. Most if not all of those small cities already have rail lines cutting through their downtowns and are reasonably economically healthy (Middletown is probably the weakest of the bunch in terms of downtown vitality). Of course, it was all served by interurbans back in the day so the corridor is basically already transit-oriented, just without the transit.
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  #25  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2023, 9:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
it's true.

if you wanna fly from cleveland to cincy, then you're likely gonna have to tranfer in:

detroit for delta

ohare for united or america

midway for southwest
That's insane.

Example: Paraná state has roughly the same population as Ohio (and both produces lots of maize), although Paraná is bigger. I know it's different because Curitiba is the state capital, but there are three daily flights each between Curitiba (3.5 million inh.) and Londrina (860k) or Maringá (750k). Distances: 399 km between CLE-CIN; 384 km CUR-LON; 424 km (CUR-MAR). Both Londrina and Maringá have much more flights to São Paulo's airports than to Curitiba (11 and 9 respectively), so it's not like the state capital is their hub.

And of course, US air travel market is much bigger than Brazilian. Even though I assume Cleveland and Cincinnati are very different areas, with not much sinergy between them, they should definitely be connected. For the state, it certainly be good if their metro areas were more tied together. A HSR connection would make more sense, but that won't happen any time soon.
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  #26  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2023, 11:18 PM
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^Ohio’s state government is very hostile toward cities so there’s virtually no political willpower to get it done. “It’s just a four hour drive”, or more realistically “it’s just a two hour drive to Columbus from either Cleveland or Cincinnati” since it’s where by far most of the investment goes these days.

Plus, as you sort of alluded to, cleveland and Cincinnati don’t really have super close economic ties, although you would think in a functioning society that connecting your state’s economic assets would be a good thing and not a political poison pill.
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  #27  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2023, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by BigDipper 80 View Post
^Ohio’s state government is very hostile toward cities so there’s virtually no political willpower to get it done. “It’s just a four hour drive”, or more realistically “it’s just a two hour drive to Columbus from either Cleveland or Cincinnati” since it’s where by far most of the investment goes these days.

Plus, as you sort of alluded to, cleveland and Cincinnati don’t really have super close economic ties, although you would think in a functioning society that connecting your state’s economic assets would be a good thing and not a political poison pill.
Honestly, I don't think this should be framed as an urban issue. There's currently no way to get between Ohio's biggest cities other than driving. You can't fly or take a train. The state doesn't necessarily need to create an airline, but a publicly available transit service to travel between cities is basic level for a first world country.
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  #28  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2023, 11:33 PM
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Interesting topic, and one I've thought about, but never quite in this way.

This is something I miss quite a lot about lower Michigan, actually. Although there are plenty of great qualities in the Northwest, Portland is extremely isolated in my opinion. When I was in Michigan, I traveled a lot to different cities to explore and it didn't feel like a big deal. Not just major metros, either. There are a ton more small cities in the Midwest, too.

As a kid, along with all the usual stuff in Detroit, my family took weekend road trips to Chicago for museums and Cubs games, Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland, Cedar Point in Sandusky, Toledo for the zoo, Niagara Falls and Toronto just to explore.

But here in the NW? Closest big city we've got is Seattle, 3 hours away. Then Vancouver BC at 6 hours, and Boise at 7 hours. After that, you're talking Sacramento at about 9.5. None of these places are exactly right in our backyard. But the lack of smaller cities hurts, too. Aside from very small coastal communities, we've pretty much got Eugene, Bend, and Spokane and that's it. It feels very strange.
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  #29  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2023, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by BigDipper 80 View Post
Plus, as you sort of alluded to, cleveland and Cincinnati don’t really have super close economic ties, although you would think in a functioning society that connecting your state’s economic assets would be a good thing and not a political poison pill.
Yes, I suspected that Cincinnati is meaningless to Cleveland and vice-versa, but for Ohio it would certainly be very beneficial to connect their three metropolises way more efficiently. Synergy emerged from that would boost state economy.

Cities could ignore each other (although that would be silly), but the state that doesn't have a flagship like Chicago, definitely not.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Honestly, I don't think this should be framed as an urban issue. There's currently no way to get between Ohio's biggest cities other than driving. You can't fly or take a train. The state doesn't necessarily need to create an airline, but a publicly available transit service to travel between cities is basic level for a first world country.
It's weird how state officials haven't lobbied for a company to keep at least one flight daily connecting those regions (assuming they hate HSR and won't even plan to build it). The way Americans fly, I can't believe there is no demand.
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  #30  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2023, 11:46 PM
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Not sure if this is still the case, but 20 years ago when I was an undergrad I had a geography professor show us a slide of a US map with a shape roughly approximating the one I've drawn below. The point was to show us where a full 50% of the US population lived.

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  #31  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2023, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
San Jose fell just under the population threshold to be counted. I didn't include Riverside because I used city centers as the endpoints, and I didn't know where to measure from there. I should've noted that before but just forgot.
The 2020 census put San Jose's MSA at 2,000,468 people, but it's your list.
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  #32  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2023, 12:35 AM
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He talked about "major cities" and "metros" not MSAs. San Francisco-San Jose (and Los Angeles-San Bernardino) is a single metro area.
Yes and no. San Francisco + San Jose = Bay Area, a singular region, but especially here on this forum, if you use the word "metro area" be prepared for others to use the literal use of the word; MSA in most cases and where the two are separate.
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  #33  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2023, 1:26 AM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
Yes and no. San Francisco + San Jose = Bay Area, a singular region, but especially here on this forum, if you use the word "metro area" be prepared for others to use the literal use of the word; MSA in most cases and where the two are separate.
I'm very careful when I use those terms. When I mean CSA, I write CSA. Ditto for MSA. When I write "metro area" then I don't need to comply with the always-changing US Census Bureau definition, but a generic one. Wikipedia: "A metropolitan area or metro is a region that consists of a densely populated urban agglomeration and its surrounding territories sharing industries, commercial areas, transport network, infrastructures and housing. A metro area usually comprises multiple principal cities, jurisdictions and municipalities: neighborhoods, townships, boroughs, cities, towns, exurbs, suburbs, counties, districts"

The OP might elaborate further, but by the context, it doesn't seem he meant to tell us Los Angeles metro area is near "San Bernardino metro area" (which is by no means a metro area, but the east chunk of LA sprawl) but instead that Cleveland is near Pittsburgh, Detroit, etc.
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  #34  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2023, 2:26 AM
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Originally Posted by subterranean View Post
Interesting topic, and one I've thought about, but never quite in this way.

This is something I miss quite a lot about lower Michigan, actually. Although there are plenty of great qualities in the Northwest, Portland is extremely isolated in my opinion.
Dude yes. Its a cultural cul de sac. Ideas and people from elsewhere travel here but they get trapped, literally by the ocean. I fully agree Portland is isolated. Other forumers wouldn't get it unless you lived here. The urban NW is more like an island. If we want to visit a different city, ppl get on airplanes. Also yay Michigan. Im from Chelsea.
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  #35  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2023, 5:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Yuri View Post
No direct flights between Cleveland and Cincinnati?!?! This basically means no flights whatsoever as a connection is impractical for such a short distance. I imagine this really harms the state.
If you don't hit any traffic you can drive between the two cities in about four hours, however you must drive through or around Columbus, which raises the likelihood of an epic traffic jam.

Ohio saw a ton of investment by Japanese companies in the 1980s and they lobbied the state government to build a cross-state bullet train using existing Japanese technology. A statewide vote failed at the polls back in 1982. It would have been the first high speed train in the United States, beating California by 50 years.


Last edited by jmecklenborg; Feb 3, 2023 at 5:39 AM.
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  #36  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2023, 7:15 AM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Honestly, I don't think this should be framed as an urban issue. There's currently no way to get between Ohio's biggest cities other than driving. You can't fly or take a train. The state doesn't necessarily need to create an airline, but a publicly available transit service to travel between cities is basic level for a first world country.
Boy did you nail that one. And I think it's hard for most Americans to understand just how bizarre our country's relationship with public transit is. Spend *any* time in (pick your choice from a long list of European and East Asian countries) and as an American you cannot help but wonder, "How the hell do these people have this shit figured out and we still don't?"

Speaking of having their shit figured out . . . wow did Ohio drop the ball on that shinkansen opportunity. Imagine having a Japanese designed and built high speed rail network instead of hoping Amtrak will ever see decent funding.
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  #37  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2023, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
Boy did you nail that one. And I think it's hard for most Americans to understand just how bizarre our country's relationship with public transit is. Spend *any* time in (pick your choice from a long list of European and East Asian countries) and as an American you cannot help but wonder, "How the hell do these people have this shit figured out and we still don't?"

Speaking of having their shit figured out . . . wow did Ohio drop the ball on that shinkansen opportunity. Imagine having a Japanese designed and built high speed rail network instead of hoping Amtrak will ever see decent funding.
And Ohio is flat (at least where the tracks would run), lots of farmland, highway/railway bed, brownfields, making expropriation relatively cheap. It's a shame that a state struggling with relative decline on the past 50 years doesn't have more ambition.

Regarding comparison with Europe and Wast Asia, the us should also expand their urban transit. It would work as important feeders to the HSR.
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  #38  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2023, 1:08 PM
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This is a neat set of statistical units.
Who would have thought that, by some metrics, Cleveland was so "central"? Perhaps therein lies part of the problem...big but not big enough to suck in the growth (what little there might be in the midwest) from the surrounding largish cities.
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  #39  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2023, 1:30 PM
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A bullet train would unquestionably be cool, but does anyone seriously think it would be a remotely Japan-like scenario? In deep-red, truck-loving, postindustrial Ohio? Yeah, there would probably be some ridership, but OH has very little transit ridership, and it has heavy rail, right now, something few states have.

If there were really an OH bullet train, it would be deeply subsidized (by who? The right-wing state leadership?) and run a few trains a day. State is way too decentralized, balkanized and auto-oriented.

The primary problem in the U.S. isn't the lack of transit infrastructure, but the lack of transit orientation.
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  #40  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2023, 2:29 PM
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The primary problem in the U.S. isn't the lack of transit infrastructure, but the lack of transit orientation.
So true, I believe creation of the interstate hwy system was one of the enablers to the degrading of the transit by rail mentality. Why support the more communal mind-set of rail transit at the expense of the individualistic mind-set of the automobile; which is more in line with the American ethos. For as woeful as Ohio rail system, is in my opinion, its highway system (despite the potholes and overall quality of the roadway) is very good. Your not going to get people to leave the highways for rail. You can drive to Columbus, but you cant take a train to Columbus.
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