Toronto/Montreal equivalents

[Docere]

Census tracts in east end (old city east of Don River) and west end (old city west of Bathurst), 2016 census:

East end

High income 14
Middle income 14
Low income 2

West end

High income 14
Middle income 27
Low income 17

Note that the west end has about twice the population as the east end. A recent development has been the low income west end areas transitioning to middle income (gentrification).

https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/com...ual_income_by/

[Docere]

Between 2000 and 2015, the number of high income tracts in the east end increased from 9 to 14. The number of low income dropped from 6 to 2.

In the west end, there were just 4 high income tracts in 2000. The number of low income tracts dropped from 27 to 17.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Rico Rommheim

My main take away from this thread is that TO and Mtl share very little in common. Little in common geographically, topographically, aesthetically, culturally and lingustically and historically.

I can think of more apt comparisons with Vancouver and Montreal, actually. Both major port cities, and from that comes the usual grit and rough-around-the-edges feel, both are plucked right next to the US border, leaving a vast northern hinterland. Both cities have a strong winter sports culture, namely skiing. Both are musical and film/media hubs. Both of them have a mostly left-wing progressive reputation. Both cities are primate, but allow for the existence of an older, quieter mid-sized city that acts as political capital.

You forgot the biggest similarity: they're Rico's two favourite cities, with the rest being more of a post-hoc justification of that. This kind of reminds me of when people used to point out that Chicago and Toronto both have 7-letter indigenous-derived names ending in the letter 'O' as a commonality.

Most of the list otherwise either feels superficial (eg. having a smaller provincial capital nearby doesn't actually affect the way the cities operate or feel); or could also apply just as well to other cities (eg. being close to the border or having a large music & film industry). The actual substantive stuff: built form, culture, lifestyle, climate, etc. - the type of things that affect day-to-day life in either city, on the other hand - are pretty different. You might be on to something with the port, but even, they way either city interacts with that isn't very familiar - Montreal's port isn't quite as central to the experience of the city the way that Vancouver's is.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by theman23

If anything, those maps show that post 2000 Toronto has a pretty stark East-West divide, with the don valley forming the boundary. Makes sense since I grew up in Toronto in that decade and the general feeling was the west side was the more desirable side of town. Think of when Queen West gentrified vs Queen East, King West vs King East, or even the perception of suburbs like Etobicoke vs Scarborough or Oakville and Mississauga vs Pickering. But if you look closely, it seems like the shift started in the 1970s, which would have been when Toronto started exploding in size. The old inner suburbs falling into decay masks the trend on a map, but there definitely is still a preference for people in Toronto to want to live on the west side. I’m definitely not the only one that feels this way. Here’s an article that examines the common east-west divide and mentions Toronto as one of its examples:

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2...poor-east-ends

Those maps show that up until about 2000 there were a lot more low income areas in the western half of the city than there were in the east. It's evened out a bit more since then due to gentrification in the western inner city and decay in the eastern inner suburbs, but this has also been concurrent with the decline of heavy industry - so the hypothesis that polluted westerly winds have resulted in historically poorer east sides doesn't hold for Toronto, where the favoured quarter is and always has been to the north.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by theman23

It’s only recently that neighborhoods like Riverdale and Leaside have become seen as desirable.

Leaside was an affluent suburb in 1960. Riverdale gentrified relatively early. I remember in the 1990s it was known for being a trendy area with a lot of media people. The Beaches was desirable as well. East end has smaller population and Riverdale and the Beaches take up a significant amount of the east end.

Meanwhile, the west end (i.e. Roncesvalles or the Portuguese-heavy sections around Dufferin) tended to gentrify later than Riverdale did.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

You forgot the biggest similarity: they're Rico's two favourite cities, with the rest being more of a post-hoc justification of that. This kind of reminds me of when people used to point out that Chicago and Toronto both have 7-letter indigenous-derived names ending in the letter 'O' as a commonality.

Most of the list otherwise either feels superficial (eg. having a smaller provincial capital nearby doesn't actually affect the way the cities operate or feel); or could also apply just as well to other cities (eg. being close to the border or having a large music & film industry). The actual substantive stuff: built form, culture, lifestyle, climate, etc. - the type of things that affect day-to-day life in either city, on the other hand - are pretty different. You might be on to something with the port, but even, they way either city interacts with that isn't very familiar - Montreal's port isn't quite as central to the experience of the city the way that Vancouver's is.

I've posted about this before but I do find there are more similarities between Montreal and Toronto than one may assume. The built-form is quite different, but the general density of things happening and vibes is roughly comparable. More on the nose, the cultural connections between the cities remain strong - significantly higher than Toronto/Vancouver.

This connection is obviously tighter within anglo communities but on my more recent trips to Montreal I've found a growing fondness within (certain, I'm sure) francophone circles. The couple just upstairs from where I'm typing is combined Montreal/Toronto - she is from here and works in the bar/restaurant industry and he (francophone Montrealer) moved here as a tattoo artist. Lots of overlap in those circles, for instance - Toronto doesn't seem to be viewed solely as a place for corporate work anymore.

Things are different overall, of course, but that's to be said for every major city. Toronto isn't Chicago either. I just got back from a week in Berlin and despite what a certain past forumer claims it's far more dissimilar than Toronto/Montreal will ever be!

[Acajack]

I've always found that Montreal and Vancouver have some similarities in terms of vibe and feel, which distinguishes them from Toronto. Especially in the areas of work vs play. I know this is a stereotype but it is what it is.

Maybe outdoorsy pursuits too but it's still a bit of a stretch.

Other than that Montreal and Toronto share similarities in terms of their place on the fringes of the NE US megaregion, something which has influenced them a lot of historically.

All in all though, I find that all three cities are fairly distinct from each other culturally, though Vancouver and Toronto in my view are closer for being both part of mainstream (Anglo-)Canada whereas Montreal is a bit of an outlier on that front.

Then again, Montreal and Toronto have commonality due to their proximity and economic ties, and their roles as anchors of the Great Canadian Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto power triangle.

[lio45]

I'd like to comment but I am realizing I don't know Toronto anywhere near enough to even feel qualified with my casual two cents. (I could comment on Montreal and Vancouver.)

Take that, center of the Canadian universe

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by niwell

This connection is obviously tighter within anglo communities but on my more recent trips to Montreal I've found a growing fondness within (certain, I'm sure) francophone circles. The couple just upstairs from where I'm typing is combined Montreal/Toronto - she is from here and works in the bar/restaurant industry and he (francophone Montrealer) moved here as a tattoo artist. Lots of overlap in those circles, for instance - Toronto doesn't seem to be viewed solely as a place for corporate work anymore.

Yeah. Even if you're the biggest Toronto detractor, and you think this is just a city where people live to work, you also have to recognize that working hard appeals to a lot of people - and creative types especially. Art is a business just like any other.

A few years ago I visited Calgary - which I believe is the city you grew up in? Anyway, one thing I was struck by was that people in that city had a similar demeanour to Torontonians in that they wanted to be taken seriously, they didn't want to do things half-assed, and they were willing to work for it. I was struck by how active the creative culture was in that city - at least the vibe I got in restaurants, bars and on the streets - despite its age and size. It's perhaps no coincidence that the city also has a reputation for being a 'down-to-business' corporate-type city.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Yeah. Even if you're the biggest Toronto detractor, and you think this is just a city where people live to work, you also have to recognize that working hard appeals to a lot of people - and creative types especially. Art is a business just like any other.

A few years ago I visited Calgary - which I believe is the city you grew up in? Anyway, one thing I was struck by was that people in that city had a similar demeanour to Torontonians in that they wanted to be taken seriously, they didn't want to do things half-assed, and they were willing to work for it. I was struck by how active the creative culture was in that city - at least the vibe I got in restaurants, bars and on the streets - despite its age and size. It's perhaps no coincidence that the city also has a reputation for being a 'down-to-business' corporate-type city.

It may be more of a newer thing but I've gotten that vibe in Calgary lately as well. Didn't notice as much growing up there but maybe because I just didn't pay attention. A few people from my high school are involved in the arts scene in Calgary and there's lots of output - plus lot's of hustling.

Along these lines I've never really found the Toronto all work / no play stereotype fully accurate. While there may be a lot more on the "work" side there's also a hedonistic aspect that occurs alongside. Within many circles people work heavily but they also party... a lot. Even at ages where I can't fathom still going that hard.

Vancouver seems a lot more laid back in general, though obviously there's still a lot going on. The general sentiment from those I know who moved here from Van is usually along the lines of "why does everyone here go out so much?".

[harls]

Bloor West Village

Monkland Village

Thoughts?

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by harls

Bloor West Village

Monkland Village

Thoughts?

I don't know how many people can weigh in with any confidence unless they've lived in both cities. Both of those neighbourhoods are pretty peripheral.

I can't talk much about Monkland village, but Bloor West Village is not a neighbourhood I'd visit in Toronto even if I spent a week here. I've visited Montreal about a half dozen times, and Monkland village never made the cut for places I wanted to see, either.

BWV is a commercial strip that contains a little bit of everything for the affluent, middle aged people who live on the nearby sidestreets. So, if you want to buy groceries from an independent greengrocer or eat run-of-the-mill sushi or take your kids to Kumon, then, yeah, it's a good place to be. But it's not known for any great restaurants or interesting shopping or any particular ethnic group. It used to have more of a Ukrainian, Polish and Hungarian flavour to it, but that's mostly gone.

[harls]

I lived in Toronto from 1999 to 2001 (near Old Mill station), and Montreal from 2001 to 2006 (lived near Monkland briefly in 2004.)

They certainly have a similar vibe. Street running east-west, no frills grocery store, near subway/metro... eclectic dining... Maybe it's just me.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by harls

I lived in Toronto from 1999 to 2001 (near Old Mill station), and Montreal from 2001 to 2006 (lived near Monkland briefly in 2004.)

They certainly have a similar vibe. Street running east-west, no frills grocery store, near subway/metro... eclectic dining... Maybe it's just me.

We were nearly neighbors. I lived on Chemin de la Cote St. Luc (near Victoria) for years (2000-2005). I'd walk down to Monkland frequently (e.g., Olde Orchard Pub)

[harls]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

We were nearly neighbors. I lived on Chemin de la Cote St. Luc (near Victoria) for years (2000-2005). I'd walk down to Monkland frequently (e.g., Olde Orchard Pub)

I remember that establishment.

It was good to meet you in person at the Smoked Meet at Hotel de la Montagne during that era. The golden age of SSP.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by harls

I remember that establishment.

It was good to meet you in person at the Smoked Meet at Hotel de la Montagne during that era. The golden age of SSP.

It was the Golden Age. Although, me thinks that the time we met was at McKibbins. There was a smoked meat there, and I recall meeting you, Habsfan, Serge, Bilo, Patrick Scantland, Elsonic (none of these guys still post on SSP)...and maybe 4-5 others. Good times.

[samne]

Golden Age indeed. I was at the SSP meet up in Toronto for Doors Open a good at least decade or two ago and met MikeToronto in person among others.


Regarding Bloor West Village. As a middle aged family man, it’s an ideal location. Lively commercial corridor with pretty much anything you need. Plenty of options for food and drink. Leafy established residential streets with character. High Park and Humber River either direction. All on the main Bloor subway line.

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by niwell

This connection is obviously tighter within anglo communities but on my more recent trips to Montreal I've found a growing fondness within (certain, I'm sure) francophone circles.

The only people who still have the delusion of a Montreal/Toronto rivalry, or who turn up their noses at Toronto, are anglo Montrealers of a certain age. A lot of francophones see Toronto as a city they like to visit once in awhile to eat, drink, sightsee and have a good time. There's a general appreciation of it as an interesting place.

[Kilgore Trout]

Monkland might be a bit more of a destination street than BWV. There are several restaurants and cafés that pull people from outside the immediate neighbourhood. Maybe not all the way across town, but definitely from the west end.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Those maps show that up until about 2000 there were a lot more low income areas in the western half of the city than there were in the east. It's evened out a bit more since then due to gentrification in the western inner city and decay in the eastern inner suburbs, but this has also been concurrent with the decline of heavy industry - so the hypothesis that polluted westerly winds have resulted in historically poorer east sides doesn't hold for Toronto, where the favoured quarter is and always has been to the north.

Yes, inner west is quite a bit bigger than inner east and takes up more space on the map. The weight of gentrification in the west end is stronger than in the east end.

The west end also has more renters and a younger population, east end skews more to the homeowner demographic, and hence east end incomes are higher. Comparing "apples" there's little difference between the two.