Great Lakes Cities

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

50% respect!

82% !

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Wow... owning this game gives you major boatnerd credentials in my book. I had no idea such a wonderful game existed.

it's pretty cool. i haven't played it in forever, but essentially each player (up to 6) is an owner/operator/captain of a single-freighter great lakes shipping company, and you work to deliver cargoes between various great lakes ports to earn enough money to pay back the original $25M loan to procure the ship (obviously that dollar value is crazy out of date today), all while avoiding storms, other competitors, and other navigation hazards that threaten hardship, and even doom, for your fledgling enterprise.

one of the best parts of the whole game is the awesome map of the lakes that serves as the game board. and you also learn some history along the way as each of the storm cards includes info about a specific shipwreck that happened on the lakes.

and you gotta love that tag line on the box: "The Game of the Great Lakes!"

Originally Posted by pj3000

There was a group of Pittsburghers on the pier who I ended up talking with while she was coming in, and they were surprised to realize that ships that big were on the Great Lakes... they had no idea whatsoever.

yeah, i've had similar experiences up on mackinac overhearing other visitor's comments when one of the thousand-footers steams through the straits right past the island:

"HOLY CRAP! what the hell is that thing? it's freaking HUGE!!!"

[benp]

"The current position of AMERICAN MARINER is at Great Lakes (coordinates 42.87232 N / 78.87838 W) reported 1 min ago by AIS. The vessel is en route to BUFFALO GO BILLS, and expected to arrive there on Jul 28, 09:00."

I grabbed a picture of the American Mariner unloading at General Mills this morning while on my bike ride.


Mariner by bpawlik, on Flickr

[lio45]

Originally Posted by pj3000

82% !

Mass would be a better metric than sheer linear length. I'm saying this as someone who has no dog in this fight.

Another possible metric would be utility/functionality.
With that one it's 100% Pascagoula 0% Erie

[lio45]

Originally Posted by benp

"The current position of AMERICAN MARINER is at Great Lakes (coordinates 42.87232 N / 78.87838 W) reported 1 min ago by AIS. The vessel is en route to BUFFALO GO BILLS, and expected to arrive there on Jul 28, 09:00."

I grabbed a picture of the American Mariner unloading at General Mills this morning while on my bike ride.


Mariner by bpawlik, on Flickr

Nice walnut. I'm starting to realize they're quite common (and grow almost like weeds).

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by lio45

Mass would be a better metric than sheer linear length. I'm saying this as someone who has no dog in this fight.

Another possible metric would be utility/functionality.
With that one it's 100% Pascagoula 0% Erie

Well... as far as utility/functionality goes, this really has none other than comic relief

[pj3000]

I've also always the workhorses of the Lakes... the tough little tugs puttering around the port areas.

In Erie, "Jiggs" was always docked right down on the bayfront and sometimes hosted bands back in the day. She was built in 1911 in Lorain by American Shipbuilding, and enjoyed over a century of service on the Great Lakes, until she caught fire and was scrapped in Port Dover in 2018... and unceremonious end for a class act.

Local Erie rock band Jabberwocky laying down what I'm sure are some sweet tunes in '82

[lio45]

I’ve been looking at cool pics thanks to this thread, I figure I’ll return the favor and help share

Stewart J Cort passing Detroit going up on its maiden voyage, May 2, 1972.

(Image source: www.boatnerd.com )

[mrnyc]

^ cool pic — no ren cen yet!

[Tom In Chicago]

I was passing through Milwaukee on Saturday and stopped by to check out a few construction projects. . . this was parked east of the Discovery World museum thing-ey. . . not sure what ship it is, but maybe someone here knows. . .

. . .

[Steely Dan]

^ That's Pearl Mist of Pearl Seas Cruise Line.

She's been cruising the great lakes for some years now.

[Tom In Chicago]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

^ That's Pearl Mist of Pearl Seas Cruise Line.

She's been cruising the great lakes for some years now.

Cool. . . I haven't been keeping up on the details about what or what not they're going to be doing with Navy Pier, but could we see a ship like this dock on the north side of the pier one day?

. . .

[Tom In Chicago]

OK. . . I've got more questions. . . so I was on marinetraffic.com's site looking for the whereabouts of Pearl Mist when I noticed another passenger ship, the Ocean Voyager, having departed Navy Pier yesterday evening on its way to Mackinac Island! Does anyone know if this is a regular thing or should I go back in this post to find out if this has already been discussed. . . I really need to pay attention more to this as I'm down at DuSable Harbor all the time and would have noticed a large ship like this parked at Navy Pier. . .

. . .

[Tom In Chicago]

I really need to spend more time on the Internet during these summer months (j/k) because I see now that Steely has in fact spotted this vessel at port up in Mackinac Island. . . wow am I late to the Great Lakes passenger ship news this season. . .

. . .

[galleyfox]

Originally Posted by Tom In Chicago

OK. . . I've got more questions. . . so I was on marinetraffic.com's site looking for the whereabouts of Pearl Mist when I noticed another passenger ship, the Ocean Voyager, having departed Navy Pier yesterday evening on its way to Mackinac Island! Does anyone know if this is a regular thing or should I go back in this post to find out if this has already been discussed. . . I really need to pay attention more to this as I'm down at DuSable Harbor all the time and would have noticed a large ship like this parked at Navy Pier. . .

. . .

Ocean Voyager and Ocean Navigator (renamed from Victory I and Victory II) were recently acquired by the American Queen Steamboat Co. which purchased a Navy Pier berth for them during the pandemic.

These two ships have been in Chicago for many years, but this is their first year sailing from Navy Pier instead of the Calumet.

https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/c...navy-pier.html


As for larger ships, Viking Cruises is still in negotiations with Navy Pier.

On the U.S. side, Hagen wants to see his ships call in Chicago, namely at the iconic Navy Pier. He said he is negotiating with the pier about docking there, although some dredging would be required.

https://www.travelweekly.com/Cruise-...iking-Octantis

The main issue with Navy Pier ever since the early 1800s has been dredging. Lake Michigan regularly dumps a huge amount of sand at the North side of the Pier, which would cost a couple million to dredge. (And would still need dredging for years thereafter)

From the city’s POV, it’s millions of expenses for 400 extra guests a week in Summer. So Chicago has passed the dredging bill to Viking.

A Cruise line could afford it if they are extremely confident in the route and profits, but obviously that’s a big expense for a new location and smaller ships, but Milwaukee is an excellent harbor for embarkation and turnaround.

I don’t really know if turnaround operations are being negotiated for Chicago. That would be an extra difficulty.

https://youtu.be/Lc3-mW1ERKw

[Velvet_Highground]

Originally Posted by galleyfox

The main issue with Navy Pier ever since the early 1800s has been dredging. Lake Michigan regularly dumps a huge amount of sand at the North side of the Pier, which would cost a couple million to dredge. (And would still need dredging for years thereafter)

From the city’s POV, it’s millions of expenses for 400 extra guests a week in Summer. So Chicago has passed the dredging bill to Viking.

A Cruise line could afford it if they are extremely confident in the route and profits, but obviously that’s a big expense for a new location and smaller ships, but Milwaukee is an excellent harbor for embarkation and turnaround.

I don’t really know if turnaround operations are being negotiated for Chicago. That would be an extra difficulty.

https://youtu.be/Lc3-mW1ERKw

Ah okay alright now things make sense I’d been really scratching my head trying to square why all they weren’t pulling out all the stops to include Navy Pier as a flagship destination.

……

Some food for thought the BBC is highlighting Great Lakes ports could relieve the supply chain bottleneck. A Dutch and a Gulf Coast transportation company have been signing deals with the Port of Cleveland which has been operating at 10% of its container capacity.

The fact that a Texas based company is willing to move containers 1,000 miles overland to Cleveland so they can be shipped to Europe says quite a lot about the current opportunities for all GL cities. The Detroit - Wayne County Port Authority is looking for a $2m upgrade to accommodate shipping automobiles as well as another 200k for a feasibility study for an agriculture terminal.

Momentum can build momentum just as with Navy Pier the question of chicken or the egg comes into play with the costs of dredging to facilitate growth of a new industry which isn’t large enough yet to pay those costs itself. The same can be seen all long the lakes the need for new ice breakers in the upper lakes whose costs can only be justified by an increase in shipping.

The St Lawrence Seaway has long been the most cost efficient way to move large amounts of cargo from in and out of the heartland. Unfortunately lack of new investment along with a number of other factors has this vital asset sitting nearly fallow compared to its capability while the world is demanding a way to move more cargo though US ports. It’s a good time for the GL region to come together and make local and regional investments to to try and grab some of the opportunities presented by the current market.


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-62157479.amp

[Crawford]

The supply chain bottleneck is temporary, and already dissipating. My wife works in logistics and in most industries it's already history.

Why would ports make game-changing investments based on a temporary global condition? The pandemic-era home goods spend-a-thon is done. The auto-chip mess is (more or less) done. The warehouse expansion frenzy went on overdrive, and if anything, there's too much logistics capacity going forward. Amazon is now shedding warehouses.

Retailers are actually now dumping tons of stay-at-home crap. They have waaay too many grills, trampolines, home office chairs, etc.

[Steely Dan]

^^ as I mentioned a couple pages ago, the only way you're ever gonna see a serious movement towards shipping cargo containers directly into great lakes ports would be to VASTLY increase the size of the st. Lawrence seaway/Welland canal and their numerous locks, to accommodate today's ocean -going cargo container ships, which would cost many billions of dollars.

I don't see that happening anytime soon.



Simply put, the seaway was built too small.


source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Lawrence_Seaway

[Velvet_Highground]

Perhaps I was still too enthusiastic I tried to temper the expectations of what could be achieved leveraging the current high demand go get shit moved to get basic brick and mortar improvements made to the system.

To get a globally competitive system a Panamax sized Seaway would be the ultimate goal. As of now that’s a pipe dream which would require a massive influx of manufacturing back to the Midwest to cover the costs of that kind of undertaking.

Getting a couple gently used ice breakers for the upper lakes as a regional goal to facilitate a longer season along with local improvements specific to each market. 2 million to upgrade docks in Detroit to ship cars and a grain terminal aren’t game changers they are basic services that it’s surprising don’t already exist.

*There was recent visit by delegation from Finland that stopped over in Michigan as a side trip on their visit to DC wanting to facilitate trade. A tiny market to be sure but perhaps representative of international internet in securing long term stable supply chains such as the aforementioned Dutch firm. I’m not an expert and it may be too late but if possible it seems prudent to leverage this short term covid / war induced crisis in some way.

[suburbanite]

Shipping cars with the current size limits would seem entirely impractical.

I just can't see anyone justifying a Seaway Expansion when compared to significantly cheaper capacity upgrades at East Coast ports + improvements to existing rail lines if necessary.

As mentioned before, the environmental effects and property damage to lakeside residents as a result of Panamax-sized cargo ships on the Great Lakes would not be insignificant.