HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #1101  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2023, 3:57 AM
Quixote's Avatar
Quixote Quixote is offline
Inveterate Angeleno
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 7,473
Quote:
...


More Jews live in LA now than ever before, bolstered by influxes of immigrants from all over the world. There are Persian Jews, Israeli Jews, Russian Jews, modern Orthodox Jews, Haredi Jews, Hollywood Jews, Moroccan Jews, Latin American Jews, Yemenite Jews, South African Jews, Mizrahi Jews, Reform and Conservative Jews, and just plain old secular Jews like me. There is even a small community of Jews who came from the Greek island of Rhodes, the Rhodeslis, some of whom still speak Ladino at home.

I started checking in with old friends and some new ones. A modern Orthodox mom who lives in Mid-Wilshire, not far from where I was staying, told me that LA has become a great place to be Orthodox. Besides her neighborhood, there are modern Orthodox enclaves in Beverlywood, North Beverly Hills, and Sherman Oaks. There are “tons” of kosher restaurants, she says, and a variety of yeshiva day schools to choose from. There’s even a progressive modern Orthodox high school, Shalhevet, on Fairfax.

...
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/n...an-jewish-life

Quote:
...

Increasingly in the last 10 to 20 years, Beverlywood has become a Jewish Orthodox enclave of younger people with large families.
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-...n-los-angeles/

Quote:
...

Orthodox Engagement: L.A. is witnessing the emergence of the second largest Orthodox community in North America, reflecting the expanding role this sector of religious life will play in shaping the Jewish future. Its resource infrastructure — including synagogues, schools, camps and social services — has expanded into the city’s cultural and culinary arenas with its community’s kosher markets and restaurants.

...
https://jewishjournal.com/commentary...ive-jewish-la/
__________________
“To tell a story is inescapably to take a moral stance.”

— Jerome Bruner
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1102  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2023, 5:41 AM
craigs's Avatar
craigs craigs is online now
Birds Aren't Real!
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,595
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quixote View Post
That article is a good read.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1103  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2023, 6:13 AM
Quixote's Avatar
Quixote Quixote is offline
Inveterate Angeleno
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 7,473
I think the biggest takeaways regarding LA Jewry writ large based on these discussions, numbers, and the findings of the studies are:

1) The Jewish community has grown and expanded into new geographies
2) Jewish culture is more pervasive. This can be attributed to more intermarriage and explains the 19% increase in the number of Jewish households. However, nearly two-thirds (64%) of Jewish children with intermarried parents/partners are being raised "Jewish in some way." And 56% of children being raised by intermarried parents/partners in which the non-Jewish adult has no religion are considered "Jewish only."
3) Jewish engagement levels are highest among the young, with 18% of the entire Jewish population being children (10% being 12 or younger), and 27% being 24 or younger
4) There's a generally high correlation between level of Jewish engagement, inmarriage rate, and parenthood of minor children, suggesting a growing Orthodox population
5) There are lots of "Jewish areas" that lend to the survival, growth, and thriving of Jewish culture
__________________
“To tell a story is inescapably to take a moral stance.”

— Jerome Bruner
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1104  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2023, 6:19 AM
Quixote's Avatar
Quixote Quixote is offline
Inveterate Angeleno
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 7,473
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigs View Post
That article is a good read.
It is, and the typographic treatment is terrific.
__________________
“To tell a story is inescapably to take a moral stance.”

— Jerome Bruner
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1105  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2023, 12:18 PM
Capsicum's Avatar
Capsicum Capsicum is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Western Hemisphere
Posts: 2,489
Quote:
Originally Posted by Docere View Post
It is interesting. Toronto's Jewish community has been moving up Bathurst St. since the 1940s, it was the corridor they followed as they moved out of Spadina and the inner west end. First to Forest Hill and North York, then Thornhill a generation later.

You also have all the flavors of Jewish communities all along the street. Establishmentarian Forest Hill, Orthodox Bathurst-Lawrence, Russians around Sheppard and so on.

In the 1960s and 1970s, there was some migration to Bayview Avenue, a very desirable street to live nearby. The orientation of the community being north-south led some to feel it wasn't "connected" to the main community. So the center of gravity then moved to Thornhill when Vaughan opened up in the 1980s. Bathurst has an almost magnetic pull.
I guess part of what makes Toronto's Jewish linear "enclave" special is maintenance of the old communities (in the old city) as new ones form, so the new ones add on continuously, without taking away from the old.

What's unique it seems (both compared to within Toronto and elsewhere and even other communities, for instance, Italians) is not abandoning old previous locations during the jump from city to suburb, just expanding, instead so that even as the center of gravity moves, the overall distribution does not, instead being geographically wider.

I suppose lack of inner city decline or suburban flight might in part explain why Toronto maintains a pattern like this (not abandoning old spots even as suburbanization takes hold) but it cannot be the whole story, otherwise other ethnic groups like Italians would have also done this and maintained old enclaves, and also other cities' Jewish communities would have done this too in places where there was no urban decline.

Perhaps the central location of Bathurst (close to Yonge and thus the heart of the city and its former metro area) made it desirable and a good place to be where the important economic action/hub of the city is, while being enough to one side to settle a more close-knit community?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1106  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2023, 4:52 PM
RST500 RST500 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 737

LA's younger Jewish population is more Orthodox and Mizrahi and less of the old school secular reform Ashkenazim.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1107  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2023, 5:17 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,181
Quote:
Originally Posted by RST500 View Post
LA's younger Jewish population is more Orthodox and Mizrahi and less of the old school secular reform Ashkenazim.
Reform Judaism is dying out - if not as a religious sect, then as a ethnic identity.

The rate of intermarriage among non-Orthodox Jews is 72%! It's been roughly this high for decades. You can see this if you look at a list of Jewish celebrities under say 30. The majority will actually be half-Jewish by descent.

These days, most children raised in interfaith households are actually raised with some sense of Jewish identity. However, will this continue into the next generation, when most will undoubtedly marry a gentile? Will their quarter-Jewish kids self-identify as Jewish? Probably not; they'll just see themselves as having some Jewish ancestry. There's past history of this happening, as Sephardic Jews intermarried into the British upper class in the 19th century in London, with a lot of the ruling class (Boris Johnson, former London mayoral candidate Zac Goldsmith) having some Jewish ancestry.

I mean, this is sort of the issue with any minority group in any culture. They only keep distinct in the long run either because the majority is prejudiced against them to some extent or, barring that, because they may make strong efforts to self-segregate (like the Haredi or the Amish).

Last edited by eschaton; Jun 6, 2023 at 6:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1108  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2023, 6:28 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 7,364
Goldsmith was a mayoral candidate but never mayor of London.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1109  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2023, 6:41 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Goldsmith was a mayoral candidate but never mayor of London.
My bad. It's been fixed now.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1110  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2023, 8:33 PM
craigs's Avatar
craigs craigs is online now
Birds Aren't Real!
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,595
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Reform Judaism is dying out - if not as a religious sect, then as a ethnic identity.
The Tablet magazine article linked above concludes the exact opposite, at least in Los Angeles, where Reform institutions have been revived and reinvigorated.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1111  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2023, 9:03 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 7,364
It's actually the Conservative movement that's seen the most decline. It was the most common stream of Judaism in the postwar years and I think it was the largest until around 1990 or so.

Reform is more liberal on intermarriage and been better able to adapt. That being said, there's been a rise in non-affiliation too.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1112  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2023, 9:19 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 7,364
Toronto's Jewish population:

Toronto/East York Community Council Area (Inner Toronto) 39,685 4.5%
North York Community Council Area 57,290 7.6%
York Region 60,795 5.2%

These are religion only. The transposition of the nonreligious numbers wouldn't be even across the areas.

60% live in the city of Toronto. About a quarter in inner Toronto (south of Eglinton Ave., including Forest Hill).

Most of the York Region Jewish population is just north of the city limits in Thornhill.

These areas altogether contain 95% of Toronto's Jewish population. Very few live in suburbs like Etobicoke or Mississauga.

Last edited by Docere; Jun 7, 2023 at 2:05 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1113  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2023, 10:27 PM
Quixote's Avatar
Quixote Quixote is offline
Inveterate Angeleno
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 7,473
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Reform Judaism is dying out - if not as a religious sect, then as a ethnic identity.

The rate of intermarriage among non-Orthodox Jews is 72%! It's been roughly this high for decades. You can see this if you look at a list of Jewish celebrities under say 30. The majority will actually be half-Jewish by descent.

These days, most children raised in interfaith households are actually raised with some sense of Jewish identity. However, will this continue into the next generation, when most will undoubtedly marry a gentile? Will their quarter-Jewish kids self-identify as Jewish? Probably not; they'll just see themselves as having some Jewish ancestry. There's past history of this happening, as Sephardic Jews intermarried into the British upper class in the 19th century in London, with a lot of the ruling class (Boris Johnson, former London mayoral candidate Zac Goldsmith) having some Jewish ancestry.

I mean, this is sort of the issue with any minority group in any culture. They only keep distinct in the long run either because the majority is prejudiced against them to some extent or, barring that, because they may make strong efforts to self-segregate (like the Haredi or the Amish).
You already have plenty of celebrities well over 30 that are mixed Jewish-gentiles: Scarlett Johansson, Jennifer Connelly, Robert Downey, Jr., Lea Michele, Amy Schumer, Maggie Gyllenhaal, etc. NYC does seem like it's a generation behind when it comes to intermarriage, however.

This is why I made it a point to emphasize NYC's urban concentration of Jews. Manhattan in particular is ruled by a wealthy Jewish elite that, although secular, is also very insular. You have tons of Jews who will only marry and primarily associate with Jews within this elite class, have their kids bar/bat-mitzvahed, eat matzo ball soup and latkes, light menorahs, make references to Seinfeld and Barbara Streisand, and incorporate Yiddish words into their lexicon. However, relatively few will go to temple regularly, always fast during Yom Kippur, own/read a Hebrew Bible, visit Israel at least 5-10 times throughout their lifetime, etc. This is what makes for "ethnic Jewry," and the absence of it suggests some degree of (and desire for) assimilation into the broader white establishment. Give an Upper East Sider a choice between moving to Jewish Millburn or WASPy Greenwich, and I bet 75% would select the latter.
__________________
“To tell a story is inescapably to take a moral stance.”

— Jerome Bruner

Last edited by Quixote; Jun 6, 2023 at 11:36 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1114  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2023, 11:40 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 7,364
I suppose Manhattan and Westside L.A. are somewhat similar in this respect, in spite of the rather different urban setting? Though I'm not sure how much of Westside L.A. Jewry is Persian.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1115  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2023, 11:44 PM
Crawford Crawford is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,497
NY has much less intermarriage than the norm bc it's A. Far more Orthodox and B. Far more Jewish. Orthodox don't intermarry and there's generally less outmarriage when there's a larger base group. And perhaps C. The share of non-Orthodox skew very heavily Conservative relative to national norms. There will soon probably be 0 Reform temples outside of NYC's gentrified core. So the most Jewish city on earth will probably have no Reform temples outside Manhattan/Brownstone Brooklyn.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1116  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2023, 4:08 AM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 7,364
Manhattan has a sort of Jewish "zeitgeist."

Last edited by Docere; Jun 7, 2023 at 5:04 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1117  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2023, 12:24 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,181
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigs View Post
The Tablet magazine article linked above concludes the exact opposite, at least in Los Angeles, where Reform institutions have been revived and reinvigorated.
Yeah, but my point is this can't go on forever, not unless Reform Judaism turns into Unitarian Universalism or something and totally divorces itself from Jewry as an idea of a unique culture.

People raised by one Jewish and one Gentile parent may feel culturally connected to Jewish practice. But will their kids? Their grandkids? At some point, it's going to become attenuated simply due to dilution into the general population.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quixote View Post
You already have plenty of celebrities well over 30 that are mixed Jewish-gentiles: Scarlett Johansson, Jennifer Connelly, Robert Downey, Jr., Lea Michele, Amy Schumer, Maggie Gyllenhaal, etc. NYC does seem like it's a generation behind when it comes to intermarriage, however.
Yeah, the idea of "mixed marriages" being taboo pretty much fell to the wayside in the U.S. by the 1970s, and there were examples even before that, so I was aware of plenty of 40something (and even some older) celebrities who were half or less Jewish. My point is only it's becoming near universal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quixote View Post
This is why I made it a point to emphasize NYC's urban concentration of Jews. Manhattan in particular is ruled by a wealthy Jewish elite that, although secular, is also very insular. You have tons of Jews who will only marry and primarily associate with Jews within this elite class, have their kids bar/bat-mitzvahed, eat matzo ball soup and latkes, light menorahs, make references to Seinfeld and Barbara Streisand, and incorporate Yiddish words into their lexicon. However, relatively few will go to temple regularly, always fast during Yom Kippur, own/read a Hebrew Bible, visit Israel at least 5-10 times throughout their lifetime, etc. This is what makes for "ethnic Jewry," and the absence of it suggests some degree of (and desire for) assimilation into the broader white establishment. Give an Upper East Sider a choice between moving to Jewish Millburn or WASPy Greenwich, and I bet 75% would select the latter.
I mean yeah, maybe, to a limited extent, but NYC's secular, urban Jewish elite, much like secular urban elites across the U.S., doesn't have many kids. This is a waning group, with the much more insular Haredim (and somewhat less insular Orthodox and more recent Jewish immigrant groups) clearly the dominant force in NYC-era Jewry now.

I also just think it's not true that this elite is really that insular. Amy Schumer is a good example. She from the Upper East Side, her father was a wealthy Jewish business owner, her mother an old-stock WASP who converted. Jared Kuchner marrying Ivanka Trump is another example, for that matter.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1118  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2023, 1:24 PM
Crawford Crawford is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,497
There are a lot of elite Jewish Manhattanites who are quite observant, though. The Orthodox population on the UWS and UES is substantial. This may be a distinction. Kids from places like Ramaz School on the UES or Heschel School on the UWS don't typically intermarry. The secular households are probably intermarrying like elsewhere, but it's overall just a much more observant community.

You do see the geography of U.S. Reform Judaism start to fade, though. I grew up adjacent to West Bloomfield, the most Jewish suburb of Detroit since the late 1980's or so. It's a very secular, Reform-dominated milieu, and you see it fading. The high intermarriage and weakening cultural bonds are making the community less Jewish, and adjacent favored quarter precents more Jewish. Jews are more thinly spread among the favored quarter, and I'm not sure if there are too many majority Jewish tracts left, but at the same time, there are probably few tracts with minimal or no Jews, as in past.

In two generations, I'm not sure if West Bloomfield will be that heavily Jewish. The high school isn't that Jewish, and the community is aging.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1119  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2023, 1:33 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 7,364
There's been a shift to the Woodward corridor:

https://thejewishnews.com/2019/03/28...ding-eastward/
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1120  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2023, 1:47 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 7,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
There are a lot of elite Jewish Manhattanites who are quite observant, though. The Orthodox population on the UWS and UES is substantial. This may be a distinction. Kids from places like Ramaz School on the UES or Heschel School on the UWS don't typically intermarry. The secular households are probably intermarrying like elsewhere, but it's overall just a much more observant community.
I think about 10% of Manhattan Jews are Orthodox (mostly Modern Orthodox). Which is low by NYC standards, but a major difference compared to say, SF or DC (city propers that have a lot of elite whites). So not only is Manhattan more than twice as Jewish by percentage, but it's more observant. Plus there's more Jews than WASPs in Manhattan to begin with, so they are the "mainstream", so to speak.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 4:32 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.