Los Angeles and Chicago with boroughs

[Docere]

What if they had borough systems? How many, what would their boundaries be, their demographics?

[Steely Dan]

For Chicago, there are would be 4:

Central Area (aka "greater downtown")
Northside
Westside
Southside


I know, really damn original names, right?

But the truth is those four "boroughs" of Chicago really do have a good deal of sway in the city's cultural/psychological geography, even if the fuzzy lines that delineate them don't hold a ton of meaning on the political map of the city.

[LosAngelesSportsFan]

It would be great, we really need it. I believe a councilman proposed it 20 years ago but was shut down. Right now, the LA city council and it's 15 members have more power than the mayor and each district acts like the others don't matter.

I would break it down as follows (very rough idea since we have so many other municipalities and odd shaped borders). These are for LA city and keep areas and districts together that share values and mindsets for the most part..

1) Valley
2) West Los Angeles bordered by 101 at the north, lax to West, Beverly hills to the east, Inglewood to the south east
3) Mid city south - below 10 freeway on the north, 105 freeway on the south, west LA to the west, 110 freeway to the east
4) Mid city north - south boundary above 10 freeway including Hollywood to Hollywood hills to the rest and north
5) San Pedro, Wilmington, Torrance, Venice, marina del Rey and beach areas
6) Greater Downtown LA including Chinatown and area up to the LA River, down south to USC and expo Park to the south and east until MacArthur Park to the west (mid city boundary)
7) East Los Angeles / Boyle heights / South LA east of 110 freeway

[M II A II R II K]

And Catalina

[Handro]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

For Chicago, there are would be 4:

Central Area (aka "greater downtown")
Northside
Westside
Southside


I know, really damn original names, right?

But the truth is those four "boroughs" of Chicago really do have a good deal of sway in the city's cultural/psychological geography, even if the fuzzy lines that delineate them don't hold a ton of meaning on the political map of the city.

I don't know, one could easily go further than that. Norwood Park and East Lakeview are both "northside" but have pretty different cultures and environments. South Shore and Beverly, same thing. If it were to come to a vote, I would say something like this would better capture the different environs (without creative nomenclature):

Central
Near West
West
Northwest
North Lakefront
Near North
South Lakefront
Near South
Southwest
Far South

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Handro

I don't know, one could easily go further than that. Norwood Park and East Lakeview are both "northside" but have pretty different cultures and environments. South Shore and Beverly, same thing. If it were to come to a vote, I would say something like this would better capture the different environs (without creative nomenclature):

Central
Near West
West
Northwest
North Lakefront
Near North
South Lakefront
Near South
Southwest
Far South

that's way too many IMO.

the four i outlined line up much more closely with the boroughs of NYC.

i mean, williamsburg is pretty different from brighton beach too, but they're both still Brooklyn.

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by M II A II R II K

And Catalina

Catalina Island isn't part of the City of Los Angeles.

It is indeed part of Los Angeles County though, with only one incorporated city on it, Avalon: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Av....3282279?hl=en

The rest of the island is unincorporated County territory.

[pj3000]

Hearing what original names these boroughs of Chicago and LA would have and why from people who live there would be cool.


Obviously not the size of LA or Chicago, but Pittsburgh and older northern/eastern cities are better subjects for this exercise, given historical names and more greatly-defined natural boundaries. Pittsburgh is old and was made up of multiple cities/towns in the core (and it's kinda setup like NYC anyway), so it's easy since there already were named boroughs until the late 19th/early 20th Century:

Allegheny (Brooklyn) - area north of Allegheny River/Ohio River; from the named municipality Allegheny which was annexed in 1907
Birmingham (Queens) - area south of Monongahela River/Ohio River; from the named municipality Birmingham which was annexed in 1872
Duquesne (Manhattan) - area including Downtown/Hill District/Strip District/Uptown/Oakland; this was the name given by the French
Homewood (Bronx) - area included the greater East End neighborhoods; common name found in the area of early farms on the edge of the city dating from the early 1800s


Philadelphia already has this built in historically too... with Philadelphia, Northern Liberties, Southwark, Spring Garden.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

that's way too many IMO.

the four i outlined line up much more closely with the boroughs of NYC.

Of course, the 5-borough NYC model isn't the only way to do it...

[Handro]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

that's way too many IMO.

the four i outlined line up much more closely with the boroughs of NYC.

i mean, williamsburg is pretty different from brighton beach too, but they're both still Brooklyn.

Right, but are we trying to replicate NYC or simply adopt a borough system? In this hypothetical situation, I doubt politically there would be many in favor of grouping Dunning with Boystown or Bronzeville with Beverly. It wouldn't really benefit for anyone to group so broadly... except administrative folks who need to handle bureaucratic paperwork, I guess.

[M II A II R II K]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Of course, the 5-borough NYC model isn't the only way to do it...

Yes L.A could make many small jurisdictions like Pasadena, and Glendale all the way to Compton and Irvine as individual boroughs and all the way to Ontario in the east as a borough in and of itself.

[Docere]

Number of boroughs:

London 32

Paris 20 (arrondissements)

Montreal 19

NYC 5

Toronto 4 (community councils)

[memph]

One big thing that sets New York apart from most of American cities, including Chicago, is that it doesn't really have a quadrant based pattern when it comes to socioeconomic and demographic characteristics of the population. It's much more cluster based. Los Angeles is one of the few other American cities that is to a large extent cluster based though.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Of course, the 5-borough NYC model isn't the only way to do it...

chicago already sort of has that with its designated "community areas", though they don't hold much actual political power.

political power in chicago comes from the 50 wards (and their alderman), but those boundaries are fluid, and sometimes WILDLY gerrymandered, so they are not very a good stand-in for cohesive "boroughs".


Chicago community area map:


source: https://consortium.uchicago.edu/web_...nt/mainmap.htm

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by memph

One big thing that sets New York apart from most of American cities, including Chicago, is that it doesn't really have a quadrant based pattern when it comes to socioeconomic and demographic characteristics of the population. It's much more cluster based. Los Angeles is one of the few other American cities that is to a large extent cluster based though.

Right; NY is really hard to classify in terms of pie-slice "favored quarters" and the like. It's really randomized throughout the metro, without obvious directionals.

There's still a slight north/northeast favored directional for corporate executives and expats, but it's really fuzzy, and mostly due to slightly better road/transit connections. It isn't like the demographics in Westchester and Fairfield Counties are meaningfully different than those in Morris and Somerset Counties.

[Crawford]

Local politics in NYC are conducted via the 59 community districts. Boroughs are a legacy of pre-consolidation and there's isn't really any borough-based power (Borough Presidents no longer have any purpose except as ombudsmen and cheerleaders).

Boroughs lost almost all their power in the early 1970's, with the establishment of the community district system, as the city attempted to decentralize power (previously the five borough presidents functioned as essentially an uber-city council).

Courts are still borough-based, of course; these are distinct counties. And there's some legacy stuff, like different Catholic dioceses and a different library system. But that's pretty much it. Even in terms of identity, I'd say Brooklyn is the only borough with a distinct cultural identity. Queens, the Bronx and Staten Island are just the legacy counties encompassing previous settlements.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by memph

One big thing that sets New York apart from most of American cities, including Chicago, is that it doesn't really have a quadrant based pattern when it comes to socioeconomic and demographic characteristics of the population. It's much more cluster based. Los Angeles is one of the few other American cities that is to a large extent cluster based though.

Pittsburgh does as well. The topography (hills/valleys, rivers and creeks) and how the greater urbanized area developed as a huge collection of industrial towns that connected and grew together ensured that no quadrant pattern is even possible, much less any socioeconomic/demographic quadrant pattern.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Queens, the Bronx and Staten Island are just the legacy counties encompassing previous settlements.

The use of mailing addresses such as Astoria NY, Jamaica NY, Flushing NY etc. reflects the weak borough identity in Queens even decades ago.

[badrunner]

We could go county based like NYC so the boroughs in LA would be LA, OC, Riverside, San Bernardino and Ventura, or at least the parts of those counties that converge in the LA urban area.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Docere

The use of mailing addresses such as Astoria NY, Jamaica NY, Flushing NY etc. reflects the weak borough identity in Queens even decades ago.

It’s because the borough is so big, with so many portions, identities, and zip codes. You see it similarly in Brooklyn... Flatbush NY, Greenpoint NY, Canarsie NY

And the Bronx too... Mott Haven NY, Hunts Point NY

Not suggesting that a weak cohesive borough identity isn’t present in Queens, just that you see the neighborhood mailing addresses elsewhere too