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  #21  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2021, 10:32 PM
Docere Docere is offline
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Maybe there's a West Coast and Southeast typology - Texas somewhere in the middle.

Is DFW more similar to L.A. or Atlanta in terms of suburban typology?
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  #22  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2021, 11:01 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Checking with ACS 2019 1 year data - Chicago MSA (1970), Los Angeles MSA (1967). So it lines up.

https://data.census.gov/
We know Chicago MSA was 50% larger than LA MSA in the 60's, and LA is MSA is 50% larger than Chicago MSA now. So if the numbers are accurate, Chicago must have demolished a shit-ton of legacy housing and LA basically demolished nothing.

Because you can't have LA doubling in population while Chicago was flat without LA building more net units. Higher household size, by itself, isn't gonna do it.
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  #23  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2021, 11:02 PM
Camelback Camelback is offline
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Maybe there's a West Coast and Southeast typology - Texas somewhere in the middle.

Is DFW more similar to L.A. or Atlanta in terms of suburban typology?
I would say that Atlanta is closer to Washington DC than it is LA or Dallas.

I would also say that Dallas is closer to LA than it is Atlanta.

I would also say that none of these cities are close to one another for a bunch of reasons.
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  #24  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2021, 11:13 PM
badrunner badrunner is offline
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LA has the largest geography of pre-war suburban housing in the country. By 1950, only NYC and Chicago MSAs were bigger, and both are much more multifamily oriented with more intense core development. You get a ton of little random neighborhoods like this full of 1920s "storybook" homes that would be considered important historic districts in any other sunbelt city but in LA it's just another street in a neighborhood you've probably never heard of.
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  #25  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2021, 11:17 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
LA has the largest geography of pre-war suburban housing in the country.
We're talking total housing units, not suburban housing units or SFH units.

And there's no way LA had more units than bigger metros. That doesn't make sense. LA wasn't a large metro pre-WW2, and obviously wouldn't have more prewar housing than larger metros. You wouldn't have a metro of 2 million with more housing than a metro of 5 million.

LA presently has higher household size than, say, Chicago, but that isn't remotely enough to explain the discrepancy, and I doubt there's good data on prewar household sizes.
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  #26  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2021, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
We know Chicago MSA was 50% larger than LA MSA in the 60's, and LA is MSA is 50% larger than Chicago MSA now. So if the numbers are accurate, Chicago must have demolished a shit-ton of legacy housing and LA basically demolished nothing.

Because you can't have LA doubling in population while Chicago was flat without LA building more net units. Higher household size, by itself, isn't gonna do it.
By 1960 Chicago MSA wasn't 50% larger than LA. They were both at about 6.7 million. LA surpassed Chicago sometime in the early 60s.
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  #27  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2021, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
We're talking total housing units, not suburban housing units or SFH units.

And there's no way LA had more units than bigger metros. That doesn't make sense. LA wasn't a large metro pre-WW2, and obviously wouldn't have more prewar housing than larger metros. You wouldn't have a metro of 2 million with more housing than a metro of 5 million.

LA presently has higher household size than, say, Chicago, but that isn't remotely enough to explain the discrepancy, and I doubt there's good data on prewar household sizes.
Prewar census records?
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  #28  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2021, 12:41 AM
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I would say that Atlanta is closer to Washington DC than it is LA or Dallas.
Yes DC and Atlanta are a lot more alike than people think. But people miss that because "BosWash" and "DC is Northeastern."
'
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  #29  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2021, 5:46 PM
Docere Docere is offline
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Built before 1940 comes out different.

The Northeast Corridor (the Census Bureau Northeast not MD/DC) has the oldest housing and New England in particular stands out for pre-1940 suburbs.

Chicago has a lot more pre-1940 housing in the city limits than L.A. (which didn't fill up until the post-war period), but not a dramatic difference in the suburbs.

https://www.newgeography.com/content...-oldest-cities

Last edited by Docere; Jun 19, 2021 at 6:04 PM.
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  #30  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2021, 6:12 PM
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A fundamental difference between LA and the other sunbelt metros is that most of the suburban areas and satellite cities in the Greater LA area have traditional downtowns that were developed around the interurban Pacific Electric Railway, and they are sort of reflected in today’s Metrolink commuter rail system. They began as disparate nodes before being amalgamated into the contiguous urban sprawl of middle-high density of today. Riverside and San Bernardino, for instance, are what Modesto and Stockton are to the Bay Area, respectively. The only difference is that we decided to build enough cookie-cutter sprawl to fill in the gap. Cities in the Northeast have the benefit of forested land instead of orange groves separating their satellites.

Bottom line: Greater LA is, for the most part, more like the Bay Area than DFW or Greater Houston. Atlanta is more like suburban DC; Phoenix more like Las Vegas and Denver (to an extent).
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  #31  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2021, 1:44 AM
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L.A. County already had 7 million by 1970. Orange County was around 1.5 million and has doubled since.
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  #32  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2021, 4:00 AM
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I’ll throw in another wrinkle to how suburban areas around central cities were built out that some have hinted at above but not yet gone full bore:

The underlying geography, geology, and topography of the area matters with respect to the urban/suburban/exurban/rural shift and gradient and to what extent periurban features exist altogether.

Desert cities tend to build highly dense suburban rings around their (mostly) smaller urban cores with abrupt end, no exurban periphery, and only rural land beyond that. Prototypical examples here are Phoenix and Las Vegas, although Tucson, Albuquerque, El Paso, and others fit this bill as well. Their economics are largely what dictate this trend: the land beyond the suburbs isn’t economically useful, and so as the area builds up as suburban housing there largely aren’t other uses (e.g. farming, rural hamlets, etc), around which to plan not geographic barriers until you get to the nearby mountains. Therefore, there’s simply an abrupt end and nothing else afterward.

Swamp cities develop similarly, but with the added addendum that some land is not developable and there are leapfrog effects around those areas. Otherwise, suburban development tends to be relatively dense, cookie cutter, and simply ends without much exurban development before the rural hinterlands begin. Miami is perhaps prototypical here, but New Orleans and Baton Rouge fit this bill as well, and Houston and D.C. to a lesser extent is a good example of this type of city.

Mountain cities tend to have compact form with suburban development that follows the terrain with exurban features predominant on the slopes outside of the city before the true rural area begins. In other words, they tend to have a fairly fine gradient from urban, suburban, exurban, to rural. Denver and Salt Lake City, are good example, but so are Boise and Seattle. Portland would be as well, but their patterns are augmented by urban growth boundary policies.

Forest cities largely follow the same pattern as mountain cities, but for different reasons: the forest growth is denser as you get further out of the city and less easy to manage, and requires progressively less dense construction less because of the topography and more because of the forest itself. Atlanta and New York City, and everything in the northeast, are great examples of this. Houston and D.C. are as well.

I’d lay out other important categories, such as hills, plains, lakes, shore, river, etc, but the point here is really that geography and geology of the area is really important for how cities and their suburban, exurban, and rural areas around them develop and what and where their periurban features are and to what extend those exist.
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HTOWN: 2305k (+10%) + MSA suburbs: 4818k (+26%) + CSA exurbs: 190k (+6%)
BIGD: 1304k (+9%) + MSA div. suburbs: 3826k (+26%) + adj. CSA exurbs: 394k (+8%)
FTW: 919k (+24%) + MSA div. suburbs: 1589k (+14%) + adj. CSA exurbs: 90k (+12%)
SATX: 1435k (+8%) + MSA suburbs: 1124k (+38%) + CSA exurbs: 18k (+11%)
ATX: 962k (+22%) + MSA suburbs: 1322k (+43%)
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  #33  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2021, 7:35 PM
LA21st LA21st is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quixote View Post
A fundamental difference between LA and the other sunbelt metros is that most of the suburban areas and satellite cities in the Greater LA area have traditional downtowns that were developed around the interurban Pacific Electric Railway, and they are sort of reflected in today’s Metrolink commuter rail system. They began as disparate nodes before being amalgamated into the contiguous urban sprawl of middle-high density of today. Riverside and San Bernardino, for instance, are what Modesto and Stockton are to the Bay Area, respectively. The only difference is that we decided to build enough cookie-cutter sprawl to fill in the gap. Cities in the Northeast have the benefit of forested land instead of orange groves separating their satellites.

Bottom line: Greater LA is, for the most part, more like the Bay Area than DFW or Greater Houston. Atlanta is more like suburban DC; Phoenix more like Las Vegas and Denver (to an extent).
Very accurate to me. Phoenix and Vegas are more like the Inland Empire.
I've never understood the LA-Dallas/Houston comparisons.
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  #34  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2021, 10:49 PM
mhays mhays is offline
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Originally Posted by wwmiv View Post
I’ll throw in another wrinkle to how suburban areas around central cities were built out that some have hinted at above but not yet gone full bore:

The underlying geography, geology, and topography of the area matters with respect to the urban/suburban/exurban/rural shift and gradient and to what extent periurban features exist altogether.

Desert cities tend to build highly dense suburban rings around their (mostly) smaller urban cores with abrupt end, no exurban periphery, and only rural land beyond that. Prototypical examples here are Phoenix and Las Vegas, although Tucson, Albuquerque, El Paso, and others fit this bill as well. Their economics are largely what dictate this trend: the land beyond the suburbs isn’t economically useful, and so as the area builds up as suburban housing there largely aren’t other uses (e.g. farming, rural hamlets, etc), around which to plan not geographic barriers until you get to the nearby mountains. Therefore, there’s simply an abrupt end and nothing else afterward.

Swamp cities develop similarly, but with the added addendum that some land is not developable and there are leapfrog effects around those areas. Otherwise, suburban development tends to be relatively dense, cookie cutter, and simply ends without much exurban development before the rural hinterlands begin. Miami is perhaps prototypical here, but New Orleans and Baton Rouge fit this bill as well, and Houston and D.C. to a lesser extent is a good example of this type of city.

Mountain cities tend to have compact form with suburban development that follows the terrain with exurban features predominant on the slopes outside of the city before the true rural area begins. In other words, they tend to have a fairly fine gradient from urban, suburban, exurban, to rural. Denver and Salt Lake City, are good example, but so are Boise and Seattle. Portland would be as well, but their patterns are augmented by urban growth boundary policies.

Forest cities largely follow the same pattern as mountain cities, but for different reasons: the forest growth is denser as you get further out of the city and less easy to manage, and requires progressively less dense construction less because of the topography and more because of the forest itself. Atlanta and New York City, and everything in the northeast, are great examples of this. Houston and D.C. are as well.

I’d lay out other important categories, such as hills, plains, lakes, shore, river, etc, but the point here is really that geography and geology of the area is really important for how cities and their suburban, exurban, and rural areas around them develop and what and where their periurban features are and to what extend those exist.
This is good analysis.

Commenting on my own region...growth boundaries are in place in some form in all West Coast cities, holding growth back in agricultural valleys low level woodlands, brushland, etc., in addition to hills and mountains.
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  #35  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2021, 11:22 PM
Docere Docere is offline
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Of the Canadian cities, Vancouver has the most barriers in terms of its ability to expand outward (ocean, mountains and US border).

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/metr...dability-issue

Van already has the lowest percentage of detached dwellings of any Canadian metro (29% compared to 33% in Montreal and 39% in Toronto).
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  #36  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2021, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by LA21st View Post
Very accurate to me. Phoenix and Vegas are more like the Inland Empire.
I've never understood the LA-Dallas/Houston comparisons.
DFW and Greater Houston are a lot more like each other than LA. They have more highways cutting through their respective metros and the sprawl mostly follows an irregular grid pattern.

LA’s a hybrid of Bay Area, Detroit, San Diego, Phoenix/Vegas, and even Chicagoland if we’re talking about overall structural typology (not just suburban).
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  #37  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2021, 12:42 AM
mhays mhays is offline
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Of the Canadian cities, Vancouver has the most barriers in terms of its ability to expand outward (ocean, mountains and US border).

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/metr...dability-issue

Van already has the lowest percentage of detached dwellings of any Canadian metro (29% compared to 33% in Montreal and 39% in Toronto).
Vancouver also has tight growth controls on its edges. It's mostly farmland long before the border.

https://www.google.com/maps/@49.1603.../data=!3m1!1e3
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  #38  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2021, 6:39 PM
Docere Docere is offline
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Toronto has a Green Belt as well. Development does continue on the other side but it's more "infill" in surrounding small towns (exurbs?) than Mississauga 2.0. Overall fewer hard restrictions.
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  #39  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2021, 9:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Toronto has a Green Belt as well. Development does continue on the other side but it's more "infill" in surrounding small towns (exurbs?) than Mississauga 2.0. Overall fewer hard restrictions.
There remain 1000s of acres of 'white belt' land approved for development between the existing urbanized area and the Green Belt.

Granted, that is disappearing quickly, but it remains, for now.

The Greenbelt obviously does influence development patterns, I merely wanted to point out, that development, generally, has not reached up to it just yet.
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  #40  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2021, 2:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Quixote View Post
DFW and Greater Houston are a lot more like each other than LA. They have more highways cutting through their respective metros and the sprawl mostly follows an irregular grid pattern.

LA’s a hybrid of Bay Area, Detroit, San Diego, Phoenix/Vegas, and even Chicagoland if we’re talking about overall structural typology (not just suburban).
I’m glad someone else noticed the similarity between parts of Chicagoland and LA, especially in the bungalow belt. The development patterns are very similar in the residential neighborhoods, low-slung bungalows on small plots of land, with multi family buildings scattered about. On the commercial side, the bungalow belt and inner ring suburbs of Chicago seem to have more districts of 1-4 story walk up buildings, while LA has the phenomena of drive-up mega developments such as 3-story strip malls and scattered mini-malls, sometimes bunched together on one street. Automobile oriented it may be, but the amount of businesses one can find on your average LA street is much more than your average suburb.

Outside of LA, I’ve only seen the multi-story strip mall used modestly in Atlanta. I think that’s mostly an LA thing, correct me if I’m wrong.
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