MapLab: The Cities Where Chain Restaurants Dominate

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by mhays

Pizza makes damn good breakfast, but the best is obviously ice cream. Not that it ever lasts that long.

And nope, nothing like "Pronto" around me. Though actually now I'm thinking of more places where you can buy a whole pizza.

I wonder if we're tougher on kitchen exhaust than other places...it's a big potential issue in mixed-use buildings. And our wage and labor laws are tougher for chains and franchises than independents.

I seriously doubt Seattle could be tougher on exhaust than California (we are obsessed with air quality—Even have our own gas formula as everyone knows). Still, I live in a mixed use building too with a restaurant on the ground floor. It’s a deli that makes an excellent Reuben sandwich and/or potato salad but they also sell burgers (several times the price of fast food ones) and whenever I pass their location on the side street where their kitchen exhaust must come out it smells like frying burgers. Not sure if the people with windows above smell it or not because I’m on the other side of the building.

[Shawn]

Steely, mhays, you guys don't have the ubiquitous "(Your Neighborhood or Town Name Here) House of Pizza" out in Chicagoland and Seattle? Every stinking town in Massachusetts and Rhode Island, and basically every neighborhood in the bigger cities, has at least one "X House of Pizza" (or something similarly named). In Southeast Mass and Rhode Island, they are actually Greek style about half the time (which is a pan pizza with a flaky crust, though not deep dish), Neapolitan / Sicilian the other half. BIG slices for $2. Always about a 5 minute drive away. They always sell $5 chicken parm that could feed two linebackers. The Rhodie locations always sell Rhode Island style calamari with delicious hot cherry peppers. A basket no single normal stomach should be able to handle, for $5.

I forget that most of the country doesn't have the Italian makeup the Northeast does. I forget that for a shockingly big part of America, Olive Garden is the best "Italian" offering around. You poor, poor Midwestern and Southern bastards, you.

[hauntedheadnc]

Interesting... I can see the dynamic you sense on the ground color-coded there on the map. Asheville is green, known for its foodie scene. The west side of the Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson sprawl, anchored by Greenville is yellow, one step down from green. The east side, anchored by Spartanburg, is orange, another step down.

Seems about right. Greenville is the dominant city in this sprawling glom, and is building a name for itself in food. Downtown in particular is where the fancy people eat. Spartanburg is a step behind Greenville in most ways, and is still the country relation to citified Greenville. And no one ever thinks about Anderson.

Personally, since moving here we've had to search hard for good food, after having been fooled into thinking it would be easy after mostly eating downtown on visits. However, we've nailed down good places for Thai, sushi, ramen, seafood, two steakhouses, barbecue, coffee and sweets, ice cream, Mexican, Chinese, Indian, Korean, German, and pizza. We still try new places, but when we're not cooking at home we're mostly staying within our network.

[ChiMIchael]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

For sure, you'll see the "big 3" burger chains do urban format stores in downtown Chicago, but out here in neighborhood Chicago, they almost always try to shoehorn in one of their bog-standard suburban style restaurants with parking lot/drive-thru.

I hate them all.

From now on, when I'm jonesing for a fast food burger, I'm taking the family to Culver's. Not only is the food MUCH better than the "big 3", but they also had enough common courtesy to respect the urban environment they were moving into by not taking a massive parking lot/curb cut dump all over it.

McDonald's is the only burger chain with a major presence downtown (ie, within the loop boundaries). There's only 2 Burger Kings, and Wendy's closed a few years ago. Downtown has been very anti-fast food this past decade as all of the fast food halls/courts have been a target for demolition, with ony the Thompson Center remaining.

I think that my neighborhood, Edgewater, has among the smallest chain presence. The neighborhood has 3 Subways, 2 McDonalds, a Popeye's, a Chipotle, a Jimmy Johns, Domino's, and a Papa Johns. the restaurant scene is mostly ethnic food with emphasis on Asian, Ethiopian, and some Mexican: plus a few mediocre pizzerias

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Shawn

Steely, mhays, you guys don't have the ubiquitous "(Your Neighborhood or Town Name Here) House of Pizza" out in Chicagoland and Seattle?

Nope.

There are 8 pizzerias in my neighborhood (3 of them sell by the slice), but none of them are named "X House of Pizza".

Originally Posted by Shawn

I forget that most of the country doesn't have the Italian makeup the Northeast does. I forget that for a shockingly big part of America, Olive Garden is the best "Italian" offering around. You poor, poor Midwestern and Southern bastards, you.

There are 3 regular (ie. non-pizzeria) Italian restaurants in my neighborhood (the pandemic sadly killed a 4th) and zero Olive Gardens. in fact, in the entire city of chicago, (some 227 sq. miles and ~2.7M people), there is only 1 single lone Olive Garden restaurant, so I'm not exactly sure who that last comment is aimed at? OG is really much more of a suburban mall out-lot type of place (like chili's, or outback steakhouse, or red lobster, etc.). you can find all of those casual dining chains in suburban areas from coast to coast (the special and magical metro area of boston is no exception), but you rarely ever see them in city neighborhoods anywhere.

While not nearly as high of a percentage as the NE cities, Chicago (and other Midwest cities) still has a decently large amount of people with with Italian ancestry. They aren't terribly concentrated into an ethnic enclave anymore, a la south Philly, and are now mostly just part of the generic white ethnic woodwork, but they're still there and weirdly clique-ishly proud like the "irish". My own wife is 100% Italian American (well, technically about half of her background is Sicilian, which is a little different in their eyes).

Plant yourself in the urban core of any major Midwest city and you'll have plenty of non-Olive Garden Italian options. In the smaller cities and towns of the midwest is where you'll see a bigger divergence with the NE on that score.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I don't think those independently owned corner by-the-slice places are particularly prevalent anywhere in the U.S. outside of maybe a 60-mile radius of NYC.

Even in Philly, they aren't really common. Even in South Philly. Lots of Italian American bakeries, but independent pizza places tend to mostly be sit-down/delivery/takeout whole pie affairs. I've walked all over South Philly and expected it to have an Italian American Brooklyn feel but it has its own unique mix of commerce.

Utica has a metric fuck ton of mom and pop pizza joints. All very different from one another.

[mhays]

We don't have Olive Gardens either. Actually, on a friend's 40th, for irony purposes we piled into a limo full of alcohol and went to one in suburban Lynnwood, which was the closest. It was goopy and any flavor was probably from MSG but we had fun.

I can walk to a handful of sit-down Italian places. In fact, back in the day I used to cook in one that was sort of an Italian-meets-SoCal. But for whatever reason the storefront by-the-slice place has never taken hold.

[JManc]

Olive Garden exists solely because it offers free all-you-can eat somewhat palatable garlic sticks.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by Shawn

Steely, mhays, you guys don't have the ubiquitous "(Your Neighborhood or Town Name Here) House of Pizza" out in Chicagoland and Seattle? Every stinking town in Massachusetts and Rhode Island, and basically every neighborhood in the bigger cities, has at least one "X House of Pizza" (or something similarly named). In Southeast Mass and Rhode Island, they are actually Greek style about half the time (which is a pan pizza with a flaky crust, though not deep dish), Neapolitan / Sicilian the other half. BIG slices for $2. Always about a 5 minute drive away. They always sell $5 chicken parm that could feed two linebackers. The Rhodie locations always sell Rhode Island style calamari with delicious hot cherry peppers. A basket no single normal stomach should be able to handle, for $5.

I forget that most of the country doesn't have the Italian makeup the Northeast does. I forget that for a shockingly big part of America, Olive Garden is the best "Italian" offering around. You poor, poor Midwestern and Southern bastards, you.

First of all, in San Francisco it seems many (most?) of the neighborhood pizza joints--what were earlier called "neon light" places--are run by ARABS. The ones I'm familiar with are North African (Tunisian, Moroccan). No Greeks or whatever.

The reason seems to be that there are plenty of Italians in SF but their families came originally from Genoa and surrounding areas of Northern Italy, not Naples and the south. So pizza is not their thing. Great food certainly is but it's different. Give them some seafood and they can make magic. In San Francisco they invented cioppino which is essentially bouillabaisse with Northern California seafood.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by mhays

We don't have Olive Gardens either. Actually, on a friend's 40th, for irony purposes we piled into a limo full of alcohol and went to one in suburban Lynnwood, which was the closest. It was goopy and any flavor was probably from MSG but we had fun.

I can walk to a handful of sit-down Italian places. In fact, back in the day I used to cook in one that was sort of an Italian-meets-SoCal. But for whatever reason the storefront by-the-slice place has never taken hold.

You clearly need more Arabs.

[Steely Dan]

this may be unholy sacrilege to those "there is only one god" pizza puritans over in the northeast, but here in the great pizza laboratory of chicago, i've actually developed a taste for kebab and shawarma-topped pizza from the middle eastern pizzerias.

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

From now on, when I'm jonesing for a fast food burger, I'm taking the family to Culver's. Not only is the food MUCH better than the "big 3", but they also had enough common courtesy to respect the urban environment they were moving into by not taking a massive parking lot/curb cut dump all over it.

This was my project! I obviously did not make the initial decision to open in this location, but worked as the architect-of-record and figured out the details with the walkup window (among other things).

Assuming it all goes according to plan, the walkup window will remain open thru the winter with a tent enclosure and heaters. Good urbanism shouldn't take the winter off!

The demographics for that store were really a slam dunk, tons of (relatively) wealthy families with kids in the area and many have fond memories of their local suburban Culver's growing up. It's basically the urban equivalent of Naperville (no offense!). I hope the sales are strong at this store to encourage Culver's to expand this model into other neighborhoods/cities.

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

this may be unholy sacrilege to those "there is only one god" pizza puritans over in the northeast, but here in the great pizza laboratory of chicago, i've actually developed a taste for kebab and shawarma-topped pizza from the middle eastern pizzerias.

Woah woah woah where can I get my hands on some shawarma pizza? That sounds godly.

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

You clearly need more Arabs.

Arabs, Georgians, Armenians, Turks... etc.

They all make good pizza. What is pizza but flatbread with toppings? Italians and New Yorkers don't have the patent on it. Nor did they originate it?

Lahmajoon/lamaçun, manakish, khachapuri... they're all delicious. I've been eating those for years here in Los Angeles... which is why I find it amusing when people say pizza sucks here. But I guess for many, New York-style is the standard.

And yes, shawarma pizza. There's a place on Sunset that came to mind: http://pionsunset.cafe/

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by ardecila

This was my project! I obviously did not make the initial decision to open in this location, but worked as the architect-of-record and figured out the details with the walkup window (among other things).

Assuming it all goes according to plan, the walkup window will remain open thru the winter with a tent enclosure and heaters. Good urbanism shouldn't take the winter off!

The demographics for that store were really a slam dunk, tons of (relatively) wealthy families with kids in the area and many have fond memories of their local suburban Culver's growing up. It's basically the urban equivalent of Naperville (no offense!). I hope the sales are strong at this store to encourage Culver's to expand this model into other neighborhoods/cities.

For real? That's awesome! Nice work!

We will be doing our part to help with the strong sales.

The best way to vote for better urban design is with your wallet.

Originally Posted by ardecila

Woah woah woah where can I get my hands on some shawarma pizza? That sounds godly.

The two around me that I'm aware of:

Si-Pie Pizzeria in Lincoln Square

Pi-Hi Cafe in North Center


There are almost certainly others around the city.

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by JManc

Olive Garden exists solely because it offers free all-you-can eat somewhat palatable garlic sticks.

I've only eaten at Olive Garden a total of 3 times in my life, the last 2 times was because my ex-boss took me to lunch there, and this was over 5 years ago; there's one not far from my work. From where I live, though, the nearest Olive Garden is like 9 or 10 miles away---not worth the drive, when there are other Italian restaurants closer to where we live.

It's funny how people seem to like to bash Olive Garden and other chain restaurants---yet many of these same people go to Starbucks. OG's food isn't totally gross, but it's really not all that great; I find the food at a lot of big nationwide chains to be really salty. My guess is that their chefs are only allowed to cook things one way or to specific recipes/instructions? I don't know.

I used to think that maybe Olive Garden's appeal to some people are the prices, thinking it might be cheaper, but looking at their menu online, it's not really all that much cheaper than some of the independent or smaller chain Italian restaurants my partner and I go to. Looking at OG's menu now (Montebello, CA location, the one closest to work), the shrimp scampi is $20.49, which is about the same price, give or take a few bucks up or down, at other, better independent Italian restaurants in my area that have different offerings (even from each other), like traditional Italian cheesecake (vs. the kind that usually end up being NY-style), or friulano, or lambrusco, or squid-ink tagliolini.

[Steely Dan]

The real money saver with the independents in Chicago is to find the BYO places.

A $5 corkage fee in lieu of a $40 bottle of wine makes a huge difference on a date night bill.

even if I ever was inclined to go the one lone OG actually in the city, they can never beat that level of cost advantage, regardless of how many free garlic bread sticks they try to throw at me

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

The real money saver with the independents in Chicago is to find the BYO places.

A $5 corkage fee in lieu of a $40 bottle of wine makes a huge difference on a date night bill.

even if I ever was inclined to go there, OG can never beat that level of cost advantage, regardless of how many free garlic bread sticks they try to throw at you.

And I don't remember, but are the unlimited garlic bread sticks all that good? I usually don't eat a lot of bread before my meal anyway, I'd get full before the entree arrives!

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

And I don't remember, but are the unlimited garlic bread sticks all that good?

I don't remember. The last time I ate at OG was back in high school, roughly 3 decades ago.

They're probably alright for what they are, but I'm with you, unlimited amounts of doughy bread before the meal is just gonna make me too bloated to actually enjoy the meal.

I mean, starting with a slice of some nice crusty Italian loaf is fine, but you don't want to gorge on that stuff before the real food arrives.

[JManc]

I'm Italian and grew up with homemade/ authentic Italian food all around me. I'm not opposed to chains (I love Chipotle) but OG puts sugar in their sauce and that's a big no no.

[bilbao58]

Originally Posted by JManc

I'm Italian and grew up with homemade/ authentic Italian food all around me. I'm not opposed to chains (I love Chipotle) but OG puts sugar in their sauce and that's a big no no.

When I lived in Toronto in the early 70, our neighbors/friends were Italian-Americans from Buffalo. Just using Ragu spaghetti sauce in a jar was totally scandalous to them.