PHILADELPHIA | 204 S. 12th Street | 398 FT | 32 FLOORS

[700 Level]

What a joke. I happened to stumble across this story on the news last night, and there were a handful of people there to protest. It's amazing that they would spend a segment of the news on such a small group. It's also amazing how people think they should be allowed to control other people's property and their rights.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Justin7

It's incredible to me that none of you can even imagine wanting to save the building at 12th & Chancellor, or that no one is bothered by adding a new large curb cut on 12th.

I don't think anyone is saying that can't believe someone would want to save that building, but the REASON being put out there is suspect.

A curb cut or wanted to keep a community amenity like the 12th Street gym are both valid wants/concerns, but this is whining about a mural that can easily be moved is a stretch. Why does it NEED to be there? Couldn't it be moved to another building? Maybe name part of the street after her? There are plenty of alternatives.

[Larry King]

Originally Posted by Justin7

It's incredible to me that none of you can even imagine wanting to save the building at 12th & Chancellor, or that no one is bothered by adding a new large curb cut on 12th.

The 12th and chancellor building is nice, would be great if they could save it. The gym building I could care less. But either way a 400 foot high rise is a net positive for the city.

[Vince_]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I don't think anyone is saying that can't believe someone would want to save that building, but the REASON being put out there is suspect.

A curb cut or wanted to keep a community amenity like the 12th Street gym are both valid wants/concerns, but this is whining about a mural that can easily be moved is a stretch. Why does it NEED to be there? Couldn't it be moved to another building? Maybe name part of the street after her? There are plenty of alternatives.

It's crazy. It's also just selfish when you consider this is during a pandemic. This is a ton of construction jobs and a lot of new residents to support struggling bars/restaurants in the area. I love Philadelphia Murals but they're meant to cover ugly walls which means they are temporary.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Justin7

It's incredible to me that none of you can even imagine wanting to save the building at 12th & Chancellor, or that no one is bothered by adding a new large curb cut on 12th.

Except that someone already has brought up the loading dock on 12th???

Originally Posted by City Wide

This is going to be an impressive building. I don't know what options there might have been, but the drawings showing the 12th St. elevation don't really show that there is going to be a large 2 bay loading dock right in the middle of the building. That's very unfortunate.

Please read the thread before making a sweeping accusation like that.

As for the structure on 12th and Chancellor, it is indeed a pretty building. However I’m willing to trade it for a 400’ apartment building if it also means that 1) said building is architecturally appealing and not just a glass box and 2) said building replaces that horrid gym building.

[Boku]

You know, maybe developers could be proactive and realize that what they're doing may upset some people in the community and offer a solution before it turns into a problem. Just saying.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Boku

You know, maybe developers could be proactive and realize that what they're doing may upset some people in the community and offer a solution before it turns into a problem. Just saying.

To be fair, I’m not sure anyone thought people would be protesting a mural. It’s a painting. It can be moved somewhere else.

I agree with you but in this particular case I can’t blame the developers for not realizing this would become a thing.

[El Duderino]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

To be fair, I’m not sure anyone thought people would be protesting a mural. It’s a painting. It can be moved somewhere else.

I agree with you but in this particular case I can’t blame the developers for not realizing this would become a thing.

They'd have to be pretty tone deaf to the neighborhood to not think that this could ruffle some feathers. I mean, this is the exact type of thing that would/could/should have been figured out by now had neighbors been truly involved...there's a reason that meeting the RCOs is a mandatory step in this process.

I hope that this moves forward AND that the mural gets a new, prominent spot that the immediate community is happy with.

[iheartphilly]

It's not the developer's fault. It feels like certain people have to bitch about something to give themselves some value. Let them pay to move the mural to another building, preferably one that they own or have them shut up. It's this kind of nonsense that prevents forward progress from happening.

[Justin7]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Except that someone already has brought up the loading dock on 12th???

Please read the thread before making a sweeping accusation like that.

I was referring to the current discussion taking place in the thread. Not something someone posted two weeks ago.

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

what reason would anyone have for opposing this?

[mcgrath618]

-delete-

[Inquizative]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Sigh... sounds like a disaster in the making. Developer should head this off at the pass and commission the recreation of this mural elsewhere.

Exactly, I visited the facebook site and was so tempted to spread some common sense and suggest that they recreate the mural in another ideal location and make it bigger and better. However, I fear I may hurt some feelings.

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Please read the thread before making a sweeping accusation like that.

As for the structure on 12th and Chancellor, it is indeed a pretty building. However I’m willing to trade it for a 400’ apartment building if it also means that 1) said building is architecturally appealing and not just a glass box and 2) said building replaces that horrid gym building.

What sweeping accusation? I said that it was unfortunate that the drawings don't better show what I think many people won't like. Show me an attractive active loading dock in a similar situation. Maybe with enough public pressure a better solution could be figured out. That process would start with public knowledge. Otherwise this appears to be a very good building and I hope it goes up.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by City Wide

What sweeping accusation? I said that it was unfortunate that the drawings don't better show what I think many people won't like. Show me an attractive active loading dock in a similar situation. Maybe with enough public pressure a better solution could be figured out. That process would start with public knowledge. Otherwise this appears to be a very good building and I hope it goes up.

Sorry, that wasn’t directed at you. Bad formatting on my part.

[mcgrath618]

I think we all missed this, but this got zoning permission and construction permission in October:

FOR THE DEMOLITION OF ALL STRUCTURES EXCEPT "1907 BUILDING" LOCATED AT SOUTHEAST CORNER OF CAMAC AND CHANCELLEOR STREET; FOR THE ERECTION OF AN ATTACHED STRUCTURE. SIZE AND LOCATION AS SHOWN IN THE APPLICATION/PLANS

https://li.phila.gov/#details?entity...0S%2012TH%20ST

When I posted a permit at the start of the thread, it was just for demo.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by Boku

You know, maybe developers could be proactive and realize that what they're doing may upset some people in the community and offer a solution before it turns into a problem. Just saying.

It's all part of a negotiation.

I'm sure they knew this would be an issue.

But why come to the table with a solution when if you did neighbors would find something else to complain about.

If you come to the table with a perfect project, people will still complain. You have to leave something on the table to negotiate. If not, your perfect project will be ruined.

This is why developers come with buildings that might be 30 floors when they intend to only build 25. Or 50 parking spots when they're okay with 100.

It just doesn't work the way you suggest.

[Boku]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

It's all part of a negotiation.

I'm sure they knew this would be an issue.

But why come to the table with a solution when if you did neighbors would find something else to complain about.

If you come to the table with a perfect project, people will still complain. You have to leave something on the table to negotiate. If not, your perfect project will be ruined.

This is why developers come with buildings that might be 30 floors when they intend to only build 25. Or 50 parking spots when they're okay with 100.

It just doesn't work the way you suggest.

Oh, ok. Pissing off neighbors is just a savvy business move. Thanks for the explanation.

[summersm343]

Nice, permits. Build it!

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by Boku

Oh, ok. Pissing off neighbors is just a savvy business move. Thanks for the explanation.

NIMBYs are born "pissed off."

[700 Level]

Originally Posted by Boku

Oh, ok. Pissing off neighbors is just a savvy business move. Thanks for the explanation.

It is impossible to not piss someone off. Here is the mathematical proof: what if you propose the perfect project that is attractive, offers amenities, provides public space, and benefits all stakeholders? Completely bulletproof? It will be rejected by some because the improvement to the neighborhood will increase property values which will in turn lead to higher property taxes.

In the real world, no proposal can escape some level of NIMBYism. So it is not a "savvy" business move, it is a "necessary" business move.