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  #141  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2019, 3:51 PM
Kidphilly Kidphilly is offline
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Originally Posted by Milksteak View Post
After going to Pittsburgh for a football game, I noticed that they almost brought the city to the stadiums. The stadiums are across the river from downtown, but surrounding everything were a bunch of what looked to be quite new low and midrises with tons of bars, hotels, and I'm guessing a handful of apartments. I view the stadium complex as a blank canvass, XFinity Live is already a huge hit...pop in a casino, a few hotels, and some surrounding infill and you've got yourself an entertainment complex accessible by both subway and major highways. The potential is certainly there, and I think a new casino strengthens that argument. Besides, allow people who want to live there to go ahead and live there...but plopping a casino and stadium in the middle of center city sounds like a headache to me.

Just for reference, this is what I'm referring to:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4458...7i13312!8i6656


I wish they would line Packer and is it 11th by the CBP with mid rise apartments or something and street facing retail/rest/bars they could still leave the lots on the interior but it would change the feel dramatically, also with the station, Navy yard and people wanting to be close to the city with a hybrid apartment style it might be a draw for people to live there
     
     
  #142  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2019, 3:52 PM
Kidphilly Kidphilly is offline
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Originally Posted by McBane View Post
As much entertainment as can be fit in the stadium complex the better. I just hope that the developments stay true to the city's grid. What I'd really like to see is more development adjacent to the subway. That sports complex subway stop is not really that close to the actual stadiums and the walk itself - through a sea of parking lots - is not very pleasant. You get out of the subway stop and it's just completely barren.

Two other thoughts:

The hotel portion - is it going to be built right away? Outside of major gambling destinations, the hotel portion of a casino is not viable (wasn't SugarHouse supposed to have a sleek hotel tower? LOL). But in this case, there was a hotel already on site that I'm assuming did enough business to warrant its replacement.

On that note, I wonder if visiting sports teams or musicians ever stay at that Holiday Inn? And would sports teams stay here if the hotel is attached to a slots barn?
I actually wonder if the time for the hotel portion of the sugar house is becoming more viable

a live music venue (smaller) might also make sense down at the stadium complex
     
     
  #143  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2019, 4:03 PM
Kidphilly Kidphilly is offline
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Originally Posted by RowanGrad View Post
I've been daydreaming of a Sixers-only arena at the 8th & Market Disney Hole. I think it would really draw people to the area and organically grow it more than any other development possibly could. Also, with all the nearby subway connections (especially Patco being literally under the site), parking wouldn't be too much of an issue, imo.

I'm curious everyone's thoughts on that. Think the lot is big enough? Think the current building's on the site would be worth demoing?
build a new arena for the sixers on top of the gallery

hopefully something better for the Disney hole in my lifetime
     
     
  #144  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2019, 6:42 PM
skyscraper skyscraper is offline
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I keep hearing about the sixers wanting a new facility. what's wrong with the wells fargo center-? is it just the desire to own their facility? because it would be a long time before that would become profitable for them. they would have to rely on other tenants themselves, such as concerts and other sports teams, to make any $$, and there is a lot of competition in the city.
they might be able to do it if they built in in nj, and had some arrangement with Rutgers Camden or something like that. but not in the city.
     
     
  #145  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2019, 7:44 PM
Londonee Londonee is offline
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Originally Posted by skyscraper View Post
I keep hearing about the sixers wanting a new facility. what's wrong with the wells fargo center-? is it just the desire to own their facility? because it would be a long time before that would become profitable for them. they would have to rely on other tenants themselves, such as concerts and other sports teams, to make any $$, and there is a lot of competition in the city.
they might be able to do it if they built in in nj, and had some arrangement with Rutgers Camden or something like that. but not in the city.
They're billionaire hedge fund guys (their nice toys happen to be arenas and jets, ours are PS4s and Honda Civics) who are tenants at a building and not making a dime on almost everything that's sold in that building - including the naming rights, internal advertisements, concessions are split arrangements, etc. The building is also now 20 plus years old and feels/looks it and Spectacor is being forced now to spend hundreds of millions to upgrade it a bit. The NBA lorckerrooms - home and away - are notoriously absolute garbage. It's simply not a great bball venue for reasons I don't feel like expanding on now.

In terms of concerts, the only competition a center city arena would have for 20,000 seat events would be....Wells Fargo Center. If you're a concert promoter would you rather book an event at a venue in Center City accessible by dozens of rail lines and subways and walkable to tens of thousands of peoples homes and offices, and hundreds of nearby restaurant and nightlife options...

Or the fairly schlocky, notoriously bad acoustic building, situated next to a highway in the middle of a sea of parking lots? Lame suburban bands like Nickelback will still play WF (the folks that attend Nickelback concerts are exactly as you'd dream, it's fantastic on 40 levels), but Kendrick Lamar, etc will switch to the CC venue.

Your point on a NJ arena is valid, but I think the civic uproar (a practice facility is one thing) would be fierce and dramatic.
     
     
  #146  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2019, 8:02 PM
cardeza cardeza is online now
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Originally Posted by skyscraper View Post
I keep hearing about the sixers wanting a new facility. what's wrong with the wells fargo center-? is it just the desire to own their facility? because it would be a long time before that would become profitable for them. they would have to rely on other tenants themselves, such as concerts and other sports teams, to make any $$, and there is a lot of competition in the city.
they might be able to do it if they built in in nj, and had some arrangement with Rutgers Camden or something like that. but not in the city.
The are investing $250M into stadium- they aren't moving out anytime soon. I was down there last month, the second level mezz is completely redone with new lights, floors, bathrooms, signs and vendors. Seats are new as well.
     
     
  #147  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2019, 8:24 PM
skyscraper skyscraper is offline
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Originally Posted by cardeza View Post
The are investing $250M into stadium- they aren't moving out anytime soon. I was down there last month, the second level mezz is completely redone with new lights, floors, bathrooms, signs and vendors. Seats are new as well.
the sixers are tenants, they don't own the arena. Comcast doesn't own them anymore. they could move out whenever their lease is up.

Last edited by skyscraper; Jan 8, 2019 at 9:19 PM.
     
     
  #148  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2019, 6:46 PM
Justin7 Justin7 is offline
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Originally Posted by RowanGrad View Post
Think the current building's on the site would be worth demoing?
No. FFS.
     
     
  #149  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2019, 8:24 PM
allovertown allovertown is offline
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Originally Posted by Londonee View Post
They're billionaire hedge fund guys (their nice toys happen to be arenas and jets, ours are PS4s and Honda Civics) who are tenants at a building and not making a dime on almost everything that's sold in that building - including the naming rights, internal advertisements, concessions are split arrangements, etc. The building is also now 20 plus years old and feels/looks it and Spectacor is being forced now to spend hundreds of millions to upgrade it a bit. The NBA lorckerrooms - home and away - are notoriously absolute garbage. It's simply not a great bball venue for reasons I don't feel like expanding on now.

In terms of concerts, the only competition a center city arena would have for 20,000 seat events would be....Wells Fargo Center. If you're a concert promoter would you rather book an event at a venue in Center City accessible by dozens of rail lines and subways and walkable to tens of thousands of peoples homes and offices, and hundreds of nearby restaurant and nightlife options...

Or the fairly schlocky, notoriously bad acoustic building, situated next to a highway in the middle of a sea of parking lots? Lame suburban bands like Nickelback will still play WF (the folks that attend Nickelback concerts are exactly as you'd dream, it's fantastic on 40 levels), but Kendrick Lamar, etc will switch to the CC venue.

Your point on a NJ arena is valid, but I think the civic uproar (a practice facility is one thing) would be fierce and dramatic.
100% on all of this. I have no sources at all regarding building anything in this town. But I have a source in the sixers and this is exactly their thinking.

May even happen before their lease expires which I believe is 2032. If the sixers have some truly great in season success, it could accelerate their timeline significantly. I'm against them getting government money for a largely unnecessary move designed solely to line the owner's pockets, and they don't seem to expect they'll get much. But however much they're getting, they'll get more as the world champions of basketball.
     
     
  #150  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2019, 10:15 PM
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How would the Flyers affect a potential new Sixers arena? I think it's quite obvious that the Sixers are in a much better position than the Flyers right now. (the Flyers, as much as they are my team, suck unfathomably hard right now)
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  #151  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2019, 1:54 AM
allovertown allovertown is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr Saturn64 View Post
How would the Flyers affect a potential new Sixers arena? I think it's quite obvious that the Sixers are in a much better position than the Flyers right now. (the Flyers, as much as they are my team, suck unfathomably hard right now)
They're irrelevant. The flyers are going nowhere. The fanbase likes the location and they're putting a ton of money into rehabbing the wells Fargo center. Not to mention it makes no sense for them to become tenants in a sixers arena.

The whole point of the sixers arena is for the sixers to own and have control of a purpose built basketball facility that is more intimate in scale and in a cool urban environment.

The speculation is that Harris will sell the team after he gets the arena. It's already valued about 5 times what he paid for them, after an arena is built, somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 times what he paid for the team is very realistic.

But my friend believes he has no interest in selling in the near future. More the idea that to maximize the value of the franchise he needs an arena and it is best to strike while the iron is hot in terms of when to get one. Who knows, for a master of the universe like Harris it could just be a matter of not liking that he has the 20th or so most valuable team and would prefer to have a top 5 value.
     
     
  #152  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2019, 3:37 PM
cardeza cardeza is online now
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Originally Posted by skyscraper View Post
the sixers are tenants, they don't own the arena. Comcast doesn't own them anymore. they could move out whenever their lease is up.
Im sure that is true technically, but I can't imagine the teams were not involved in the discussions about the upgrades with the intent of keeping them as tenants. MOving to a new stadium shortly after a $250M upgrade to your current home doesn't seem likely. Renovations are becoming more and more common for cost reasons.
     
     
  #153  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2019, 3:40 PM
cardeza cardeza is online now
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Originally Posted by Londonee View Post
They're billionaire hedge fund guys (their nice toys happen to be arenas and jets, ours are PS4s and Honda Civics) who are tenants at a building and not making a dime on almost everything that's sold in that building - including the naming rights, internal advertisements, concessions are split arrangements, etc. The building is also now 20 plus years old and feels/looks it and Spectacor is being forced now to spend hundreds of millions to upgrade it a bit. The NBA lorckerrooms - home and away - are notoriously absolute garbage. It's simply not a great bball venue for reasons I don't feel like expanding on now.

In terms of concerts, the only competition a center city arena would have for 20,000 seat events would be....Wells Fargo Center. If you're a concert promoter would you rather book an event at a venue in Center City accessible by dozens of rail lines and subways and walkable to tens of thousands of peoples homes and offices, and hundreds of nearby restaurant and nightlife options...

Or the fairly schlocky, notoriously bad acoustic building, situated next to a highway in the middle of a sea of parking lots? Lame suburban bands like Nickelback will still play WF (the folks that attend Nickelback concerts are exactly as you'd dream, it's fantastic on 40 levels), but Kendrick Lamar, etc will switch to the CC venue.

Your point on a NJ arena is valid, but I think the civic uproar (a practice facility is one thing) would be fierce and dramatic.
If you read the articles about the upgrades I think it's hard to consider them minor. You make it sounds like they are repainting. New seats, wider concourses, new bathrooms, new outdoor terrace, more glass facing center city for better views, new and more concession areas, etc. From what I saw on the upper mezz level it's like a new building inside in the areas that are complete. I believe they also made improvements to the PA system, screens, and communications systems. The location of the building is one thing, but in terms of facility quality it appears post renovation its going to be competitive with anything else out there.
     
     
  #154  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2019, 3:56 PM
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mcgrath618 mcgrath618 is offline
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Originally Posted by cardeza View Post
If you read the articles about the upgrades I think it's hard to consider them minor. You make it sounds like they are repainting. New seats, wider concourses, new bathrooms, new outdoor terrace, more glass facing center city for better views, new and more concession areas, etc. From what I saw on the upper mezz level it's like a new building inside in the areas that are complete. I believe they also made improvements to the PA system, screens, and communications systems. The location of the building is one thing, but in terms of facility quality it appears post renovation its going to be competitive with anything else out there.

I was in Wells Fargo for a concert in September. I was very impressed. It was relatively easy to navigate, and nothing felt disused or shoddy. Food was pretty good too.
     
     
  #155  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2019, 4:05 PM
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^^
I'm sure a cost-benefit analysis was done prior to dropping $250MM in renovations/updating/technology. Comcast Spectacor wants the continued business. The bones of the buildings look fine. While it is not one unified structure as other buildings are attached to the main structure, it is a more than acceptable arena for the Sixers to play home games in. As people know, the arena is also home to the Flyers and other Philly Sports teams. Unless Sixer's owners want their own and can foot the bill and it makes economic sense outside of their playing season, I don't see the Sixers playing in their "own" exclusive arena.
     
     
  #156  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2019, 4:33 PM
allovertown allovertown is offline
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Originally Posted by cardeza View Post
If you read the articles about the upgrades I think it's hard to consider them minor. You make it sounds like they are repainting. New seats, wider concourses, new bathrooms, new outdoor terrace, more glass facing center city for better views, new and more concession areas, etc. From what I saw on the upper mezz level it's like a new building inside in the areas that are complete. I believe they also made improvements to the PA system, screens, and communications systems. The location of the building is one thing, but in terms of facility quality it appears post renovation its going to be competitive with anything else out there.
The renovations are basically irrelevant to the Sixers building a new arena. I'm sure they're happier they're getting done than not, but it doesn't change anything in the end.

The sixers relationship with Comcast spectator was downright contentious up until recently. There have been numerous disagreements between the ownership groups with the most public being a spat over the naming rights of the building. Comcast was insisting that the terms of the naming rights contract required the name of the building to be displayed on the sixers court, even though the sixers were not receiving a penny from wells Fargo. It got to the point where "wells Fargo center" was written in tiny white font that was barely visible on TV broadcasts and their social media posts would refer to the building only as "The Center." Things have apparently cooled off but there is still no love lost between the two groups.

The sixers have NOT been consulted in any serious way in the renovations. They are being undertaken by Comcast, the owners of the flyers and the building and largely with the flyers in mind. The sixers will apparently get a renovated locker room eventually which will be nice because it's currently among the worst in the NBA. The renovation largely won't solve the biggest issue with the locker room though, which is that it is one of the smallest home locker rooms in the NBA, so there still won't be room for many of the amenities found in other nba locker rooms or in their own practice facility for that matter.

At the end of the day, it's just an untenable situation in the long term. The sixers want their own arena so they can make more money, but also because they want more control. The sixers recently ended a 2 plus week road trip that took place over the holidays, a road trip they are forced to take every year during the holidays because every year the flyers rent out the arena to Disney on Ice, a major inconvenience to the Sixers that they receive zero compensation for.

Assuming Harris still owns the team, they'll be moving into a new arena when their lease is up, if not sooner.
     
     
  #157  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2019, 4:40 PM
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I would be very interested to see what would happen in the event that the Sixers do end up moving into Center City. A central location for a stadium would greatly alter the urban fabric wherever it goes. Where would it go? How big would it be? Would it be built in tandem with another development, like uCity Square or Schuylkill Yards? How would people get to/from the stadium?
     
     
  #158  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2019, 5:06 PM
allovertown allovertown is offline
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Originally Posted by mcgrath618 View Post
I would be very interested to see what would happen in the event that the Sixers do end up moving into Center City. A central location for a stadium would greatly alter the urban fabric wherever it goes. Where would it go? How big would it be? Would it be built in tandem with another development, like uCity Square or Schuylkill Yards? How would people get to/from the stadium?
My friend is not connected in any way to the building of the arena so he's not plugged into most of the specifics you mention if they are even decided yet which is a big if. But he's high enough up in another department that he is aware that the general plan is a downtown arena.

A Basketball arena is not a stadium. It would be a big impact in terms of the influx of around 20000 people going in and out of a building regularly at night. But it wouldn't necessarily have a huge impact on the urban fabric in the sense that it's small enough to fit on plenty of existing large blocks so it's not like they'd need to close streets or anything like that. Additionally, it's easy to line the street side with retail, to further enmesh it in its surroundings.
     
     
  #159  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2019, 7:18 PM
cardeza cardeza is online now
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Originally Posted by iheartphilly View Post
^^
I'm sure a cost-benefit analysis was done prior to dropping $250MM in renovations/updating/technology. Comcast Spectacor wants the continued business. The bones of the buildings look fine. While it is not one unified structure as other buildings are attached to the main structure, it is a more than acceptable arena for the Sixers to play home games in. As people know, the arena is also home to the Flyers and other Philly Sports teams. Unless Sixer's owners want their own and can foot the bill and it makes economic sense outside of their playing season, I don't see the Sixers playing in their "own" exclusive arena.
And unlike most cities, the stadiums have plenty of parking AND are close to mass transit. Many other cities that have relocated arenas downtown were bringing them in from suburban areas nowhere near transit or urban activity. Whether people like it or not, a huge proportion of fans coming to sixers/flyers games are from NJ and the burbs and love it's location. I heard that the Pistons attendance has dropped since they moved into their new downtown arena- apparently many loyal suburban fans have not made the transition to what they perceive as a less ideal location.
     
     
  #160  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2019, 7:56 PM
allovertown allovertown is offline
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Originally Posted by cardeza View Post
And unlike most cities, the stadiums have plenty of parking AND are close to mass transit. Many other cities that have relocated arenas downtown were bringing them in from suburban areas nowhere near transit or urban activity. Whether people like it or not, a huge proportion of fans coming to sixers/flyers games are from NJ and the burbs and love it's location. I heard that the Pistons attendance has dropped since they moved into their new downtown arena- apparently many loyal suburban fans have not made the transition to what they perceive as a less ideal location.
Center city is not downtown Detroit.

You keep ignoring the biggest reason this will happen. The sixers want it to happen and the owners can afford to make it happen. They don't want to be tenants in the flyers building for reasons I've laid out.
     
     
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