Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

We had to 'value engineer' about 30-50mil out of our project....

Yeah I remember, I can't believe they got rid of the street retail activation. That is one of the things causing the argument at council, because almost everyone sees it as a necessity because it's the centrepiece of the Entertainment District, so it won't be cut. The contingency fund allows for an overrun of $50 million (total price tag $600 million), and the argument last night was about how to deal with it if it goes over that amount.

Originally Posted by JHikka

I'm having trouble finding anything official on what Chad is speaking to re: Calgary council, arena costs, etc.

Why would there be anything official? It's not like they're going to do a press release the very evening they have the debate.


from https://twitter.com/LiveWire_DK/
"by far the most stunning thing that I've seen in my entire time as a Councillor," - Farkas
"Revealing this confidential information could compromise the commercial interests of the city," said City solicitor, Jill Floen
'voting on the main motion. That passes. The capital projects information will stay confidential.'

Originally Posted by OutoftheIce on SRC

Council spent 5 hours behind closed doors getting a capital projects update. The CMLC was asked to be part of the closed door update which narrows things down to BMO Convention Centre, Arts Commons and the Event Centre. When Council came back into chambers Farkas said what they heard was one of the most shocking updates during his time on Council and wanted to make the information public. Diane Colley-Urquhart (big pro Flames/pro arena Councillor) used a procedural trick to block Farkas' motion from being considered and then Council voted on accepting the confidential update with Farkas, Farrell, Woolley, Chahal and Gondek voting against. One of the only times Farrell and Farkas have ever agreed was over the arena deal and the Event Centre Council Committee was chaired by Jeff Davison who is rumored to be contemplating a run for mayor so it would be in Gondek's best interest to have an arena controversy become public since he would be the one wearing most of the controversy.

To me it was enough to validate the rumours on here about a cost over run but the fact the Mayor, Keating and Carra voted in favour is enough to suggest to me it's not a major over run and there's an appetite to just get the thing built and it's better to push ahead and get it done right and not value engineer all the community benefits away to hit a budget targets.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Apparently there was quite a cerfuffle at council today about the new arena. All in all the indications are that it will be going ahead as planned, but is likely to come in significantly over budget... which is crazy since it's already the third most expensive NHL arena ever proposed. 0_o

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Why would there be anything official? It's not like they're going to do a press release the very evening they have the debate.

If you knew about it then surely it also would have been known by others at the same time. I found no evidence of such in the following day. No reporters, no bloggers, nothing. Perhaps my sleuthing needs work.

Anyway:

Calgary Flames arena deal paused over budget concerns
Drew Anderson · CBC News · Posted: Apr 14, 2021 1:35 PM MT

"The multi-million dollar arena deal between the City of Calgary and the owners of the Flames is being paused over "a difference in the current budget estimate and the program requirements for the facility."

That's according to the Calgary Municipal Land Corporation, the city-owned entity responsible for overseeing the $550 million project.

"Calgary Municipal Land Corporation (CMLC), along with our partners at the City of Calgary, provided an update to council at the April 13th closed meeting on the progress of the Event Centre," reads an emailed statement from CMLC, attributed to its president and CEO Kate Thompson.

"We started this project by developing principles and a program that would create a building that Calgarians would be proud to have in their city, and over the past several months, the team has developed a design to reach that goal."

It says the parties have agreed to pause the project to allow time to "resolve these challenges" related to the budget."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...dget-1.5987561

---

Saddledome will be the oldest arena in the NHL by 10 years when the Isles move from Nassau to their new arena next year. And before anyone gets smart, MSG and Key Arena don't really count thanks to massive renovations to both buildings.

[Coldrsx]

Par for the course.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

https://exposnation.com/wp-content/u...3/12/stade.jpg

Nice pic, and I'm all for it, as long as not a single cent of public funds are used to built it, or bring the team over.

Originally Posted by Hawrylyshyn

FIFA regulation is stadiums orient North/South to prevent advantage from one team facing the sun. Stupid but it is what it is

I never paid particular attention to that. But glancing at google earth, it is incredible to see the number of stadiums (soccer specific or not) around the world that are oriented N/S.

[blueandgoldguy]

Winnipeg's Shaw Park is oriented towards the southeast so it seem to break with the mold of other ballparks' orientation.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by JHikka

If you knew about it then surely it also would have been known by others at the same time. I found no evidence of such in the following day. No reporters, no bloggers, nothing. Perhaps my sleuthing needs work.

Anyway:

Calgary Flames arena deal paused over budget concerns
Drew Anderson · CBC News · Posted: Apr 14, 2021 1:35 PM MT

"The multi-million dollar arena deal between the City of Calgary and the owners of the Flames is being paused over "a difference in the current budget estimate and the program requirements for the facility."

That's according to the Calgary Municipal Land Corporation, the city-owned entity responsible for overseeing the $550 million project.

"Calgary Municipal Land Corporation (CMLC), along with our partners at the City of Calgary, provided an update to council at the April 13th closed meeting on the progress of the Event Centre," reads an emailed statement from CMLC, attributed to its president and CEO Kate Thompson.

"We started this project by developing principles and a program that would create a building that Calgarians would be proud to have in their city, and over the past several months, the team has developed a design to reach that goal."

It says the parties have agreed to pause the project to allow time to "resolve these challenges" related to the budget."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...dget-1.5987561

---

Saddledome will be the oldest arena in the NHL by 10 years when the Isles move from Nassau to their new arena next year. And before anyone gets smart, MSG and Key Arena don't really count thanks to massive renovations to both buildings.

Good. And who cares that the saddledome is the oldest. Better that than to see public funds go into sports/entertainment companies.

Calgary should put that $275 million to better use. If the Flames want a new stadium, they should fund it themselves or find private investors.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

Good. And who cares that the saddledome is the oldest.

Generally teams care when they are trying to acquire and entice players with state-of-the-art facilities. It was an open secret that the Islanders have had struggles for years attracting talent because Nassau was entirely outdated. It also has an effect on fans and STHs if they drive down the road to Edmonton, or elsewhere, and see that their facilities are far-and-away better than their own.

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

Calgary should put that $275 million to better use. If the Flames want a new stadium, they should fund it themselves or find private investors.

Agree with this for the most part.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

Calgary should put that $275 million to better use. If the Flames want a new stadium, they should fund it themselves or find private investors.

The perennial problem is that arenas (outside of cities with two arena filling top line franchises) are not productive assets - they don't generate a financial return, and are not worth what they cost. So if most cities want one and the opportunities they open up, gotta subsidize.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

The perennial problem is that arenas (outside of cities with two arena filling top line franchises) are not productive assets - they don't generate a financial return, and are not worth what they cost. So if most cities want one and the opportunities they open up, gotta subsidize.

Yeah but hockey arenas are better at generating revenue than stand alone soccer or football or baseball stadiums. You can often use the same hockey arena for basketball games/concerts. Etc.

Dont hockey arenas have some of the highest usage in terms of days/year?

That, and the fact they are smaller/cheaper* than those other stadiums, means your ROI will be had sooner.

*excluding those cheapish soccer specific stadiums, like saputo stadium, which is basically mostly aluminum grand stands and grass.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

The perennial problem is that arenas (outside of cities with two arena filling top line franchises) are not productive assets - they don't generate a financial return, and are not worth what they cost. So if most cities want one and the opportunities they open up, gotta subsidize.

I don't want one in Calgary and think The Flames are an offensive parasite, so why should I support paying to build it?

[JHikka]

CSEC asks for additional $70M and more land for arena deal: Sources

Michael Franklin
CTVNewsCalgary.ca Senior Digital Producer
@CTVMFranklin Contact

Published Wednesday, April 14, 2021 1:55PM MDT
Last Updated Wednesday, April 14, 2021 7:31PM MDT

"CALGARY -- Development on the city's new event centre, which is expected to be the new home of the Calgary Flames, has been paused over a discrepancy over the budget for the project, officials have confirmed to CTV News.

The Calgary Municipal Land Corporation (CMLC), along with its partners with the City of Calgary, provided an update on the progress of the project planning at a closed-door meeting of council on April 13.

At that meeting, the CMLC said "there is a difference in the current budget estimate and the program requirements for the facility."

There is no official statement about what the differences could be, but sources with direct knowledge of the negotiations, who is not permitted to speak publicly about the details, tells CTV News that the Calgary Sports and Entertainment Corporation (CSEC) requested:

An additional $70 million
The CMLC removed as a project manager
More land allocated for the project
Control over traffic around the new rink

As a result of the issue, the CMLC says it will call for a temporary stop on the planning work until it can be resolved.

...

The deal for Calgary's new event centre was signed back in December 2019, with $550-million price tag split 50/50 between the Calgary Sports and Entertainment Corporation and the City of Calgary.

The land and building will be owned by the city and the Flames’ ownership group will cover the operation and maintenance costs for 35 years.

The city will get two per cent of the ticket revenue and $250,000 per year for the first 10 years for the naming rights. Once the arena is completed and turned over to CSEC, it will pay taxes to the city, though the exact amount is redacted in the public agreements.

CMLC will get $8 million to work as the project manager for the planning and building stages of the rink."

https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/csec-asks...rces-1.5387513

[milomilo]

Cancel it and go back to the drawing board or just do something else. Fuck The Flames - Calgary owes them nothing.

[Coldrsx]

Uh huh

lolz

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

Uh huh

lolz

Any public investment in the arena is an economic loss - the city's own promotional material says so. Why should a taxpayer support a project that makes the city poorer?

[Coldrsx]

Is it an economic generator?

What's the ROI?

How does it accelerate or impact the valuation and viability of the many, many lots around it?

If you can double your money, are you walking out of the casino or doubling down?

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

Is it an economic generator?

What's the ROI?

How does it accelerate or impact the valuation and viability of the many, many lots around it?

If you can double your money, are you walking out of the casino or doubling down?

Leave the money in the hands of Calgarians to decide. Don't steal it from them to transfer to the cunts that own the flames to subsidise their business.

Look at the material Calgary "promoted" the project with. Any supposed benefit the city gains from the arena relies on incremental tax revenue in the nearby area, which is bullshit. It's just potential development that might have happened somewhere else in Calgary anyway. And it's not inflation adjusted. There's little chance an arena is creating new productive investment in Calgary.

[Coldrsx]

Read this.

https://www.uap.ualberta.ca/titles/9...934-power-play

I am featured in it

[milomilo]

I'll defer to the mountains of other research that overwhelmingly states that public dollars invested in private sports facilities are a poor investment. Since I personally don't place any value in having the flames in the city (in fact, I'd rather they fucked off since they publicly disdain Calgarians) then my vote is a hard no to paying for their circus tent.

[Coldrsx]

Generally I would agree with you, but in a few specific scenarios, cities, situations it makes sense... with Calgary being one of them.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

Generally I would agree with you, but in a few specific scenarios, cities, situations it makes sense... with Calgary being one of them.

Why? As I understand it, Calgary is a quite profitable market for NHL, but even if that wasn't the case it would hardly destroy Calgary if they left. IMO it would be a badge of honour for Calgary to say no to subsidies. What makes Calgary great is our love of the free market, and no better way to show that than to refuse subsidies for a profit making endeavour.