HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #9181  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2022, 7:42 PM
10023's Avatar
10023 10023 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London
Posts: 21,129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedestrian View Post
Sick puppy.
To make an argument that you will obviously disagree with, because of age and the very different manner in which you live your life:

There are more important things than preserving the remaining lifespan of every old and sick person. You can’t turn the whole world upside down to save grandma. And grandma should have taken more personal responsibility for her own safety (and severely curtailed her own activities) rather than all these restrictions and travel bans and expensive testing.
__________________
There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." - Isaac Asimov
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9182  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2022, 11:03 PM
SIGSEGV's Avatar
SIGSEGV SIGSEGV is offline
He/his/him. >~<, QED!
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Loop, Chicago
Posts: 5,312
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigs View Post
Hang in there and best of luck to you both (but especially her)!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
SIGSEGV, good luck to you and mama and baby!
Thanks... there's a lot of waiting around with not much happening (yay epidural?).
__________________
And here the air that I breathe isn't dead.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9183  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2022, 11:13 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is online now
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 26,848
^ I remember that game.

My wife was induced for our first kid and all told it was like a 30 hour process from when we arrived at the hospital until our baby girl was actually born.

Our son came a out A LOT quicker.

Hang in there
__________________
"every time a strip mall dies, an angel gets its wings"
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9184  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2022, 3:35 AM
homebucket homebucket is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: The Bay
Posts: 5,797
Quote:
Originally Posted by SIGSEGV View Post
In labor and delivery now (for who knows how many hours), they are definitely a bit short on nurses. We'll see how sleeping with a KN95 on goes lol. At least I'm not the one laboring...
Congrats! Hope mom and baby are healthy and doing well.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9185  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2022, 3:36 AM
homebucket homebucket is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: The Bay
Posts: 5,797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
A family member in the Chicago-area has COVID-19 and is on oxygen, but not a ventilator. He gave a ride to a friend who was sick and now all five people in his household have it, but he is the only one in the hospital. I'm guessing he is around 45-50 years old, with pre-existing conditions? Everyone in his house was careful, wearing masks and avoiding big crowds. He wasn't vaccinated and was concerned the vaccines weren't tested enough to know if they are safe. Yes, after a year! They are safe! Get vaccinated!

Others in the family are very angry at him for not getting vaccinated.
I mean...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9186  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2022, 7:15 AM
Pedestrian's Avatar
Pedestrian Pedestrian is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 24,177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
A family member in the Chicago-area has COVID-19 and is on oxygen, but not a ventilator. He gave a ride to a friend who was sick and now all five people in his household have it, but he is the only one in the hospital. I'm guessing he is around 45-50 years old, with pre-existing conditions? Everyone in his house was careful, wearing masks and avoiding big crowds. He wasn't vaccinated and was concerned the vaccines weren't tested enough to know if they are safe. Yes, after a year! They are safe! Get vaccinated!

Others in the family are very angry at him for not getting vaccinated.
So I guess he has now "tested" covid enough to know whether it is real and safe.

This is what I'll never understand. With something like 200 million Americans having now had at least one shot of vaccine (very rough math--please, no criticism on that), we'd be dropping like flies in a cloud of Black Flag if it was anything like as unsafe as covid. So just looking at the issue in relative terms, remaining unvaccinated makes even less sense than getting in a closed car with someone who is sick while you are yourself unvaccinated.
__________________
Rusiya delenda est
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9187  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2022, 7:22 AM
Pedestrian's Avatar
Pedestrian Pedestrian is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 24,177
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
To make an argument that you will obviously disagree with, because of age and the very different manner in which you live your life:

There are more important things than preserving the remaining lifespan of every old and sick person. You can’t turn the whole world upside down to save grandma. And grandma should have taken more personal responsibility for her own safety (and severely curtailed her own activities) rather than all these restrictions and travel bans and expensive testing.
This argument is so old and tired.

Absolutely nobody on this side of the Atlantic is talking about measures beyond vaccination and wearing masks in limited (mainly indoor) circumstances yet you keep bringing up "turning the world upside down" or other complete straw men.

I guess the modern term is "gaslighting". But your comments amount to pretty much nothing else.

What is turning the world upside down at the moment is the number of people sick with covid who cannot or should not work (just as if they had a bad cold except this number of people never get colds all at once). And if they were all vaccinated and wore masks when it is the sensible thing to do (and maybe, yes, limited indoor public socializing to times and places that are terribly important to them), it's likely fewer of them would be sick all at once and the world wouldn't be quite so turned upside down.
__________________
Rusiya delenda est
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9188  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2022, 11:36 AM
Trae's Avatar
Trae Trae is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Los Angeles and Houston
Posts: 4,479
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedestrian View Post
So I guess he has now "tested" covid enough to know whether it is real and safe.

This is what I'll never understand. With something like 200 million Americans having now had at least one shot of vaccine (very rough math--please, no criticism on that), we'd be dropping like flies in a cloud of Black Flag if it was anything like as unsafe as covid. So just looking at the issue in relative terms, remaining unvaccinated makes even less sense than getting in a closed car with someone who is sick while you are yourself unvaccinated.
I dont understand why people think this though. Some only have one dose because that one dose caused adverse reactions. If we all dropped like that immediately then no one would trust the vaccine, which means the vaccine manufacturers wont make any money. They know what theyre doing. Like the corrupt food industry. Remember when the "food scientists" said margarine was safer than butter? We know how that turned out. Similar thing here with natural immunity being turned into a conspiracy theory.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9189  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2022, 11:40 AM
10023's Avatar
10023 10023 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London
Posts: 21,129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedestrian View Post
This argument is so old and tired.

Absolutely nobody on this side of the Atlantic is talking about measures beyond vaccination and wearing masks in limited (mainly indoor) circumstances yet you keep bringing up "turning the world upside down" or other complete straw men.

I guess the modern term is "gaslighting". But your comments amount to pretty much nothing else.

What is turning the world upside down at the moment is the number of people sick with covid who cannot or should not work (just as if they had a bad cold except this number of people never get colds all at once). And if they were all vaccinated and wore masks when it is the sensible thing to do (and maybe, yes, limited indoor public socializing to times and places that are terribly important to them), it's likely fewer of them would be sick all at once and the world wouldn't be quite so turned upside down.
Again, the experience differed by geography. Only in Florida et al was it “vaccination and wearing masks in limited circumstances. Over here in Europe the restrictions were severe, and in some places they continue to be (curfews, etc) for absolutely no reason.

“Limiting indoor socializing” and limiting travel does turn the world upside down. You were young once, I guess. Years of youth have been stolen from people that they can’t get back. And I live in London essentially so that I can travel.

The gaslighting was done by governments and public health authorities who convinced so many people that this was a killer virus, that their children were/are at risk, that employers were basically committing murder by making their 20-something year old staff go to work, etc. But that was what they did to try to achieve some compliance with the rules, otherwise everyone under 50 or 60 would have (rightfully) decided that they didn’t really give a damn.

There is no point to masks now. Everyone is going to get Covid, unless they are extremely cautious (meaning they don’t go out). If you are still so concerned even after the vaccine, then you should stay home, order groceries, and watch Netflix. But I’m not going to keep wearing a fucking mask over my face just because a few old farts think they should be able to go to restaurants and shops and other public spaces without getting a ridiculously infectious cold. We owe you nothing.
__________________
There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." - Isaac Asimov

Last edited by 10023; Jan 16, 2022 at 11:59 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9190  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2022, 1:45 PM
montréaliste montréaliste is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Chambly, Quebec
Posts: 1,901
^^^^


There must be a reason you had to squeeze in: " And I live in London essentially so that I can travel." Out of nowhere…

Lol
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9191  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2022, 4:00 PM
someone123's Avatar
someone123 someone123 is offline
hähnchenbrüstfiletstüc
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 30,930
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
The gaslighting was done by governments and public health authorities who convinced so many people that this was a killer virus, that their children were/are at risk, that employers were basically committing murder by making their 20-something year old staff go to work, etc.
There's been gaslighting on both sides. Both with danger from the virus in most populations (e.g. vaccinated people under age 65, unvaccinated children) and on the side of the severity of public health measures. As you suggest, masking requirements, vaccine passports, travel restrictions, and rolling school closures or even curfews (which Quebec had until recently) are not minor. Yet they are applied for long periods of time with a low evidence bar and a lot of people are happy to do a 180 and support restrictions that a few months earlier they would not have imagined or said were inappropriate.

It reminds me of 9/11 where there was a real threat but it was exaggerated, and then measures to cope with that exaggerated threat were pushed far beyond a reasonable cost-benefit. I believe in the future, when the political aspect dies down and the people who made the decisions are out of the picture, this will look like a similar era of massive policy failure. Many people have a warped view right now because they are fearful or partisan (remember when the US was doing badly due to Donald Trump and Joe Biden was going to bring things back to normal? ).

I think for us to have an "off-ramp" we will need some kind of narrative for why the measures are not needed anymore (even though many did nothing or were never justified). I'm hoping the shift from omicron will provide this pretext, and maybe it just can't happen right now because of high cases. Wide availability of vaccines would have been a good point at which to dump most of the restrictions.

Last edited by someone123; Jan 16, 2022 at 4:12 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9192  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2022, 4:24 PM
10023's Avatar
10023 10023 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London
Posts: 21,129
Quote:
Originally Posted by montréaliste View Post
^^^^


There must be a reason you had to squeeze in: " And I live in London essentially so that I can travel." Out of nowhere…

Lol
The point was that travel restrictions are not minor. Travel is most of why I’m here. I don’t live in London because I want to experience England.

My sister and her husband have been in Tokyo since late 2019 and will return to Europe this summer. It was supposed to be an amazing experience, largely to travel that part of the world. Covid restrictions have ruined that, and since spring of 2021 there has been no reason for them.
__________________
There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." - Isaac Asimov
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9193  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2022, 4:28 PM
10023's Avatar
10023 10023 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London
Posts: 21,129
Quote:
Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
There's been gaslighting on both sides. Both with danger from the virus in most populations (e.g. vaccinated people under age 65, unvaccinated children) and on the side of the severity of public health measures. As you suggest, masking requirements, vaccine passports, travel restrictions, and rolling school closures or even curfews (which Quebec had until recently) are not minor. Yet they are applied for long periods of time with a low evidence bar and a lot of people are happy to do a 180 and support restrictions that a few months earlier they would not have imagined or said were inappropriate.

It reminds me of 9/11 where there was a real threat but it was exaggerated, and then measures to cope with that exaggerated threat were pushed far beyond a reasonable cost-benefit. I believe in the future, when the political aspect dies down and the people who made the decisions are out of the picture, this will look like a similar era of massive policy failure. Many people have a warped view right now because they are fearful or partisan (remember when the US was doing badly due to Donald Trump and Joe Biden was going to bring things back to normal? ).

I think for us to have an "off-ramp" we will need some kind of narrative for why the measures are not needed anymore (even though many did nothing or were never justified). I'm hoping the shift from omicron will provide this pretext, and maybe it just can't happen right now because of high cases. Wide availability of vaccines would have been a good point at which to dump most of the restrictions.
I made the comment a year ago that the travel restrictions and masks are mostly “public health theater”, in the same way that removing your shoes and liquids at airports is “security theater”. I can’t remember who coined the term but it’s been floating around since about 2003.

On the gaslighting point - a big part of why Covid was so overblown in the US is that it’s why Trump lost the White House. It’s no surprise that the NY Times and similarly inclined media went hard on the “pandemic apocalypse”/Trump-will-kill-us-all angle. You can say “both sides” are gaslighting but everyone knows Joe Rogan and his ilk are morons - it’s a shame to see the NYT become just as nonsensical, albeit in the opposite direction.
__________________
There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." - Isaac Asimov

Last edited by 10023; Jan 16, 2022 at 4:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9194  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2022, 4:40 PM
lio45 lio45 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Quebec
Posts: 36,855
Quote:
Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
or even curfews (which Quebec had until recently)
Still in force as of right now actually, but going to be lifted soon.

Not as annoying as the 8 pm one, but still having an annoying impact occasionally. I was taking care of non-urgent building repairs yesterday, and had to quit everything I was doing at 8 pm because I was two hours away from home; I had to drive faster than usual and managed to get in my driveway at 9:59 pm.

I was thinking while driving, it would be ironic if I hit a deer and ended up in the hospital because I was paying less attention to the road (I was paying a lot of attention to the clock, to calculate the time I had left and the distance I still had to drive, in order to constantly readjust my speed upwards) and driving faster.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9195  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2022, 4:57 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 7,355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trae View Post
I dont understand why people think this though. Some only have one dose because that one dose caused adverse reactions. If we all dropped like that immediately then no one would trust the vaccine, which means the vaccine manufacturers wont make any money. They know what theyre doing. Like the corrupt food industry. Remember when the "food scientists" said margarine was safer than butter? We know how that turned out. Similar thing here with natural immunity being turned into a conspiracy theory.
Over 200 million people in the U.S. are fully vaccinated. And probably billions globally. If there was something wrong with the vaccines, we'd almost certainly know it by now.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9196  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2022, 5:09 PM
someone123's Avatar
someone123 someone123 is offline
hähnchenbrüstfiletstüc
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 30,930
Quote:
Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Still in force as of right now actually, but going to be lifted soon.
I saw the announcement from the Quebec premier and if I recall correctly he said they could relax restrictions now because the peak has been hit. I doubt he will say it but this timing and rationale is an admission that these measures did nothing and/or were never needed.

All they can do is "flatten the curve" and to the extent that they flattened the curve they'd "conserve energy" for spread upon relaxation. If they had been highly effective, releasing them when there's significant prevalence just a bit below the peak would cause cases to go up again, perhaps to a new even higher peak.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9197  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2022, 5:26 PM
someone123's Avatar
someone123 someone123 is offline
hähnchenbrüstfiletstüc
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 30,930
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
You can say “both sides” are gaslighting but everyone knows Joe Rogan and his ilk are morons - it’s a shame to see the NYT become just as nonsensical, albeit in the opposite direction.
It is even more slanted in Canada and still we have people carrying on as if all our problems are due to the 5% of people who get their medical advice from Joe Rogan or whoever the evil people are. We are up to around 93% of eligible vaccinated around here and a good chunk of the 7% is 5-11 year olds. Of course a lot of Canadians mindlessly follow American media and get mad at Republicans and Donald Trump so to them if people in Mississippi are dying and Trump is saying bad things about Mexicans we must do something in Canada.

I would argue that if your public health policy requires 99% of people to carefully follow your elaborate multi-year rules and not 95%, you have bad policy, not necessarily a bad public (here in Canada we have one of the most compliant populations anywhere). Eventually we have to get a grip with reality. The vaccine rollout gets us 95%+ of the benefit for < 1% of the cost of the other stuff.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9198  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2022, 5:37 PM
lio45 lio45 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Quebec
Posts: 36,855
Quote:
Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
I doubt he will say it but this timing and rationale is an admission that these measures did nothing and/or were never needed.
Of course they weren't "needed": the jurisdictions that didn't go anywhere near as far... ALSO peaked with similar-ish timing.

Omicron's going to rip through the population quickly, curfews or not. May as well not destroy the economy gratuitously, given that it won't change much.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9199  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2022, 5:56 PM
someone123's Avatar
someone123 someone123 is offline
hähnchenbrüstfiletstüc
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 30,930
Quote:
Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Of course they weren't "needed": the jurisdictions that didn't go anywhere near as far... ALSO peaked with similar-ish timing.

Omicron's going to rip through the population quickly, curfews or not. May as well not destroy the economy gratuitously, given that it won't change much.
I agree but my point is it's even more plainly ridiculous than if they had been kept in place until "the danger had passed" and Legault argued that the measures made some kind of difference (argue there was an even worse counterfactual; Quebec would have been 4x as bad as everywhere else if not for the life-saving curfew). Lots of people believed this type of argument before, and the omicron dynamics were pretty similar to past waves except for the whole process being faster (maybe due to shorter generation time?). Turns out if you pessimistic modeling you can convinced a lot of people you saved them from something.

I do think the wheels are falling off of this a bit, and fewer and fewer people think this approach is reasonable. But I still know a lot of people who are basically in the #zerocovid camp or at least say it's "irresponsible" not to adapt behaviour a lot based on variants/cases/whatever (although TBH I notice many of these people don't behave very differently, they just say they are more concerned but do what others do).

Last edited by someone123; Jan 16, 2022 at 6:15 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9200  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2022, 7:13 PM
10023's Avatar
10023 10023 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London
Posts: 21,129
Quote:
Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
I would argue that if your public health policy requires 99% of people to carefully follow your elaborate multi-year rules and not 95%, you have bad policy, not necessarily a bad public (here in Canada we have one of the most compliant populations anywhere). Eventually we have to get a grip with reality. The vaccine rollout gets us 95%+ of the benefit for < 1% of the cost of the other stuff.
Absolutely.

I still have friends (or really acquaintances at this point) in the US who are posting things in their IG stories to the effect that the CDC “isn’t doing anything” as Omicron “ravages” the country. They live in places like Brooklyn and LA, so I know they can’t help it, but honestly. They’ve given you a very effective vaccine and you can wear a mask or not go out if you want. What the fuck do you want, to be told to stay home again? Jesus Christ.
__________________
There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." - Isaac Asimov
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 9:00 AM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.