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  #101  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2019, 4:07 PM
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Originally Posted by citybooster View Post
It's not ideal but a major improvement. Deny any more extension of the lease past 2023 for the Dolans and get MSG out of there, and things would be even better.

The more they dig in here, the least likely it is for any change. It's a horrible choice for Penn Station. But I will say this. If they move forward with this plan, then I see no problem with Vornado moving on what would be basically a larger version going up across the street, the one everyone loves to hate...

Both are horrible design choices for the area, but yes, they would still be improvements.




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  #102  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2019, 8:56 PM
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Change at Penn and MSG

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The more they dig in here, the least likely it is for any change. It's a horrible choice for Penn Station. But I will say this. If they move forward with this plan, then I see no problem with Vornado moving on what would be basically a larger version going up across the street, the one everyone loves to hate...

Both are horrible design choices for the area, but yes, they would still be improvements.




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On the subject of Madison Square Garden, I highly doubt in my humble opinion that they will be able to force the Dolans to leave the current MSG. After putting up 1 billion dollars in renovating the building, I really think they will put up a major fight through the court system preventing any forcible eviction or move after the 10 year lease is up via their lawsuits which will just delay things indefinitely plus Governor Cuomo his hinted that he won't try to persuade the Dolans to move out of MSG which leaves the City of New York and the Landmarks Commission to fight the fight. I completely understand the sympathies towards restoring Penn Station to somewhat of it's prior glory before Penn Station lost it's battle in 1963 and it is the reason that the Landmarks Commission was created in the first place, however you're never gonna bring back the Old Penn Station and as to the battle to evict the Dolans out of the current Madison Square Garden, I truly believe it ain't gonna happen. CALL ME CRAZY. WHAT'S YOUR TAKE ON THIS ??
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  #103  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2019, 9:02 PM
peteybrooklyn1959 peteybrooklyn1959 is offline
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Madison square garden and the dolans

On the subject of Madison Square Garden, I highly doubt in my humble opinion that they will be able to force the Dolans to leave the current MSG. After putting up 1 billion dollars in renovating the building, I really think they will put up a major fight through the court system preventing any forcible eviction or move after the 10 year lease is up via their lawsuits which will just delay things indefinitely plus Governor Cuomo his hinted that he won't try to persuade the Dolans to move out of MSG which leaves the City of New York and the Landmarks Commission to fight the fight. I completely understand the sympathies towards restoring Penn Station to somewhat of it's prior glory before Penn Station lost it's battle in 1963 and it is the reason that the Landmarks Commission was created in the first place, however you're never gonna bring back the Old Penn Station and as to the battle to evict the Dolans out of the current Madison Square Garden, I truly believe it ain't gonna happen. CALL ME CRAZY. WHAT'S YOUR TAKE ON THIS ??
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  #104  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2019, 9:08 PM
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Originally Posted by peteybrooklyn1959 View Post
On the subject of Madison Square Garden, I highly doubt in my humble opinion that they will be able to force the Dolans to leave the current MSG. After putting up 1 billion dollars in renovating the building, I really think they will put up a major fight through the court system preventing any forcible eviction or move after the 10 year lease is up via their lawsuits which will just delay things indefinitely plus Governor Cuomo his hinted that he won't try to persuade the Dolans to move out of MSG which leaves the City of New York and the Landmarks Commission to fight the fight. I completely understand the sympathies towards restoring Penn Station to somewhat of it's prior glory before Penn Station lost it's battle in 1963 and it is the reason that the Landmarks Commission was created in the first place, however you're never gonna bring back the Old Penn Station and as to the battle to evict the Dolans out of the current Madison Square Garden, I truly believe it ain't gonna happen. CALL ME CRAZY. WHAT'S YOUR TAKE ON THIS ??
Sure, the Dolans could try to tie things up in litigation, but what is the legal basis for a lawsuit from them? They knew the terms of the special operating permit (for defined and definite term that ends in 2023) and chose to make the renovations they did knowing the city's ability to refrain from renewing. And what forcible eviction? It ends naturally. They no longer will have a legal right to be there. Unless there were representations made that we are unaware of and some kind of arguable contract modification, I don't see how they have a legal leg to stand on. Of course, that doesn't mean they won't be placated for political reasons and to avoid litigation. Meritorious or not.
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  #105  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2019, 9:15 PM
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MSG and the 10 Year Operating Permit

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Sure, the Dolans could try to tie things up in litigation, but what is the legal basis for a lawsuit from them? They knew the terms of the special operating permit (for defined and definite term that ends in 2023) and chose to make the renovations they did knowing the city's ability to refrain from renewing. And what forcible eviction? It ends naturally. They no longer will have a legal right to be there. Unless there were representations made that we are unaware of and some kind of arguable contract modification, I don't see how they have a legal leg to stand on. Of course, that doesn't mean they won't be placated for political reasons and to avoid litigation. Meritorious or not.
Yes I agree, the 10 Operating Permit which expires in 2023 should be etched in stone...ironclad..but you know how politics plays out in the City in New York and like President Clinton once said during the Monica Lewinsky scandal... "It depends upon what the meaning of the word 'is' is. LOL !!!!
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  #106  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 12:07 AM
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^ The Dolans could be evicted if the City really wanted to move them. The problem is, is there really anywhere for them to go in the area, and does the city really want to lose it. This is the fourth version of MSG, so the building itself isn't that important, and it was basically on the verge of moving into the Farley Building in a previous incarnation of the Moynihan Station development. It could be done, if there was a will to do it. At one point there was, currently, I don't think there is.

But at the very least, 2 Penn could have been rebuilt, and idea Vornado has had. But the issue of cost is preventing any of that. One again, we have to settle.
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  #107  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 2:40 AM
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What has to be done if MSG stays is losing the theater and doing as much with the base to open up the Eighth Street side of Penn Station... I know that BIG was supposed to do something with it, is there any news on what might be done with that side should MSG stay in place there?
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  #108  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 2:34 PM
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The money is there, its the poor allocation of it that's the issue. Capital spent on things that quite frankly don't need it.

With Penn, its sad, I agree. And the issues on capacity and crowds have been known for years. Its not a problem that has suddenly popped up. Both the city, and the state have dropped the ball on Penn Station.
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  #109  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 4:15 PM
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Originally Posted by citybooster View Post
What has to be done if MSG stays is losing the theater and doing as much with the base to open up the Eighth Street side of Penn Station... I know that BIG was supposed to do something with it, is there any news on what might be done with that side should MSG stay in place there?
The MSG proposal is something the state is working on, but that would be on 8th Avenue, opposite the Farley/Moynihan/Empire Station part of the complex.

We need something on 7th Avenue to restore the sense of the grand station that Penn is and used to have there. That likely won't happen, but it would have been nice to have the station more of a component to the design.



https://www.hotelpenn.com/blog/penn-...-may-not-know/



https://www.pinterest.ca/pin/335447872239331030/




https://www.cityrealty.com/nyc/marke...redesign/23442
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  #110  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 6:07 PM
peteybrooklyn1959 peteybrooklyn1959 is offline
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No One Will Be Happy

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Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
The MSG proposal is something the state is working on, but that would be on 8th Avenue, opposite the Farley/Moynihan/Empire Station part of the complex.

We need something on 7th Avenue to restore the sense of the grand station that Penn is and used to have there. That likely won't happen, but it would have been nice to have the station more of a component to the design.



https://www.hotelpenn.com/blog/penn-...-may-not-know/



https://www.pinterest.ca/pin/335447872239331030/




https://www.cityrealty.com/nyc/marke...redesign/23442
The problem with everything that's been done around Penn Station and Madison Square Garden via Vornado, the City, and the State is that all entities have tried to please everyone and in the process they have pleased no one !!
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  #111  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 8:25 PM
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Here's what I honestly think will happen. Sometime around or after 2023, when a new controversy over the future of MSG has dragged on, some group of politicians and private investors will come to an agreement to privately finance a replacement arena somewhere else in the general area. First thing to come to mind is an expanded/reapportioned Javits Center. Recent developments in other cities suggest having all these crowd-drawing facilities in one place might be a more efficient use of space anyway. Once that happens...imagine a new arena opening sometime before 2030, the whole of the current complex can be demolished and fully redeveloped.

At that point the Moynihan portion will be open long enough that it could bear some overflow from decreased functionality at the main station. Also at that time, Hudson Yards being open for a decade and the responding redevelopment around Grand Central and the Trade Center will start to make Penn look like the obvious laggard in the transit-nodal business district crew. Tenants will have further fled to newer facilities, and it will really be better business at that time for them to rip everything out and start fresh.

So actually, let them do a basic-ass renovation now so we won't feel as bad when it all gets replaced in another decade or so.
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  #112  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2019, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by NYC2ATX View Post
Here's what I honestly think will happen. Sometime around or after 2023, when a new controversy over the future of MSG has dragged on, some group of politicians and private investors will come to an agreement to privately finance a replacement arena somewhere else in the general area. First thing to come to mind is an expanded/reapportioned Javits Center. Recent developments in other cities suggest having all these crowd-drawing facilities in one place might be a more efficient use of space anyway. Once that happens...imagine a new arena opening sometime before 2030, the whole of the current complex can be demolished and fully redeveloped.

At that point the Moynihan portion will be open long enough that it could bear some overflow from decreased functionality at the main station. Also at that time, Hudson Yards being open for a decade and the responding redevelopment around Grand Central and the Trade Center will start to make Penn look like the obvious laggard in the transit-nodal business district crew. Tenants will have further fled to newer facilities, and it will really be better business at that time for them to rip everything out and start fresh.

So actually, let them do a basic-ass renovation now so we won't feel as bad when it all gets replaced in another decade or so.
The best solution will be move the MSG on West Hudson Yards, where Related thinks of building the Hudson Yards Phase II. A new MSG can be build above the platform, surrounded by apartment buildings and public schools. At the corner between 34th street and 11th avenue and between 30th street and 11 avenue can be build two towers of 1,400+ feet tall (like to Tower Fifth) with 1 million square feet each, of offices and hotels. Related could be involved in this project.
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  #113  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2019, 2:28 AM
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The best solution will be move the MSG on West Hudson Yards, where Related thinks of building the Hudson Yards Phase II. A new MSG can be build above the platform, surrounded by apartment buildings and public schools. At the corner between 34th street and 11th avenue and between 30th street and 11 avenue can be build two towers of 1,400+ feet tall (like to Tower Fifth) with 1 million square feet each, of offices and hotels. Related could be involved in this project.
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  #114  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2019, 4:00 AM
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Originally Posted by peteybrooklyn1959 View Post
The problem with everything that's been done around Penn Station and Madison Square Garden via Vornado, the City, and the State is that all entities have tried to please everyone and in the process they have pleased no one !!
We're still waiting to see what Cuomo's overall plan for the area is. We've seen ideas, like the JDS proposal, but nothing official has come up or out.
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  #115  
Old Posted Mar 10, 2019, 5:56 PM
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More info and graphics on the 1 Penn Plaza reno can be found here...

https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/planning...cp021m-eas.pdf



Quote:
E. PURPOSE AND NEED FOR THE PROPOSED PROJECT


One Penn Plaza, designed by Kahn and Jacobs and completed in 1972, is a 57-story, 2.5 million gsf skyscraper. Set back on raised bonused plazas and entered through dark arcades on both 33rd and 34th Streets, the building was a strong form in the skyline but violated what is now known to be good urban planning principles for public space interaction with the street. The plazas, as originally designed, are separated and elevated from the sidewalk in many locations. This separation, coupled with a lack of amenities, serves to make many of these areas underutilized as passive open space for the pedestrian. Later alterations built wider and more extensive planters at the building’s perimeter, which made the plazas less accessible and the lobby entrances and retail less visible and inviting.

The Proposed Project is part of an overall building repositioning to provide a modern lobby and an improved tenant experience that will reframe how the building and the plazas provide an inviting public realm within its commercial neighborhood. The current lobby, which is set back 50 feet from the sidewalk, will be extended to within 15 feet of the street line, and the proposed 35-foot-tall, 90-foot-wide glass lobby will provide visual transparency and will better engage with the street. Pedestrian circulation and visual transparency into the public plazas and arcades will be improved and plaza areas within the property will be upgraded with new landscaping, seating, lighting, and finishes.


At least there will be a new entrance to Penn at the other end of 34th Street...






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  #116  
Old Posted Mar 10, 2019, 7:56 PM
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^Reading it now. I heard they were going to do something with the tower's facade, I wonder what that will involve?
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  #117  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2019, 10:59 PM
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I should point out that scaffolding has gone up around 1 Penn, and the new subway entrances on 34th and 33rd are open. So slowly but surely some improvements coming to the area.
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  #118  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2019, 6:39 AM
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Just how much of One Penn has been encased in scaffolding? Now I'm all curious.
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  #119  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2019, 8:17 PM
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Just how much of One Penn has been encased in scaffolding? Now I'm all curious.
Just the sidewalk and plaza area.
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  #120  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2019, 11:11 PM
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https://seekingalpha.com/article/425...all-transcript

Vornado Realty Trust (VNO) CEO Steven Roth on Q1 2019 Results - Earnings Call


Apr. 30, 2019


Quote:
Michael Franco

Let me turn now to the New York market. The New York City economy continues to be strong with sustained job growth driving strong tenant demand for office space. In the first quarter, the city added 12000 office using jobs or two-thirds of what was created all of last year and it pace well ahead -- well above I should say what's needed to absorb the new supply coming online. As a result, tenant demand remains very strong in all submarkets with more than eight million square feet of lease transactions completed during the first quarter.

......More than ever, companies are focused on new office space as a means of employee recruitment and retention. We are continuing to benefit from this theme in redeveloped midtown portfolio and this bodes very well for what we are doing at Farley and plan to do in the PENN district overall.

.....Construction of the Moynihan Train Hall in the Farley Building continues full speed ahead. Interest from both office and retail tenants is picking up despite the heavy construction nature of the site as they begin to appreciate the uniqueness of this asset.

At PENN1, the sidewalk bridges are now up as we have started the facade portion of our transformation.

.....I want to emphasize a point that Steve made in his annual letter. The net proceeds from 220 will fund the PENN distributed element plan for Farley, PENN1 and PENN2 with little or no new debt. Once completed the lease stop, these developments will be highly accretive to future earnings and value.

And earlier this month, we received the unanimous approval from the New York City Landmarks Commission for a redevelopment of 260 11th Avenue designed by the world-renowned architect Lord Richard Rogers. It is directly across the street from Starrett-Lehigh and a couple of blocks south of Hudson Yards. This approximately 350,000 square foot building will uniquely combine historic and new buildings and feature the best of Roger's signature design elements creating exactly what creative class tenants you are looking for today.
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