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  #41  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2023, 3:37 PM
dave8721 dave8721 is offline
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I don't think its necessarily the wood construction that sets the height. Here in Miami there is no wood construction at all but we still see the 5-8 story apartment buildings that go up everywhere. They are just all concrete.

See this: https://www.google.com/maps/@25.7352...7i16384!8i8192

or
https://www.google.com/maps/@25.6933...7i16384!8i8192

or https://www.google.com/maps/@26.1280...7i16384!8i8192

Here are some 7-story ones under construction so you can see the concrete structure: https://www.google.com/maps/@26.1299...7i13312!8i6656
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  #42  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2023, 3:50 PM
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Miami looks pretty nice right now.
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  #43  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2023, 4:28 PM
mhays mhays is offline
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Does Miami have height limits?

As for NJ, why are we talking about townhouses?
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  #44  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2023, 7:04 PM
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Originally Posted by strongbad635 View Post
The sameness isn't why people don't respond well to these buildings, it's the bad placemaking. Most of the problem people have with modern/postmodern architecture in an actual urban environment (as opposed to a rendering or a photo from a distance) is that modernism took the relationship between buildings and places and severed it. The movement decided that a building shouldn't have to create a place, it can just exist as an object sitting in the landscape with no context. When postmodernists came along and wanted to (on rare occasions) repair this relationship, they had difficulty doing so without the fundamentals of good placemaking, which had largely been forgotten or dismissed as oppressive traditional flim-flam.

Buildings create a good place when they mimic the patterns, syntaxes, and language of natural spaces where humans evolved to feel safety and comfort. These tended to be wooded areas and enclosed spaces where early humans could control their environment and defend against attacks from predators (and occasionally other humans). Some of these patterns included:

-Properly enclosed spaces with a defined center and defined edges
-Proportions that demonstrate a base, a middle, and a top, like a tree
-A lack of large blank spaces, which nature tends not to create and which can foster a mental state of stress because people feel exposed
-Materials that reflect a color scheme found in natural settings
-Patterns that express enough depth to give life to a surface, but not so much depth that it feels like a disruption in the spacial definition

Some basic standards that could go a long way toward making these large buildings better placemakers include:

Short setbacks are better than wide setbacks
Larger number of small buildings are better than one huge building
Simpler massing is better than complex massing (it's also cheaper, hello?)
Narrow to the frontage is better than wider to the frontage
2-5 stories is better than more than 6 stories
Vertical proportions feel better than horizontal proportions
Less articulation feels more comfortable than more articulation (also cheaper)
A differentiated ground floor is better than a continuous ground floor
Masked parking is ALWAYS better than visible parking
Materials and shapes that express tectonics are more comfortable than tectonics being ignored
Thicker wall depths are better than paper thin walls (worth spending a bit more on)
Punched windows feel MUCH better than sheet windows or glass walls (and can be cheaper to build)
Natural (or natural-feel) materials are better than composite materials
Fewer materials are better than a complex mix of many materials (and again, that's less expensive)
Bearing materials feel more comfortable than cladding materials (and don't have to cost more)
Clear glass is better than dark or mirrored glass (and cheaper)

These basic standards could go a long way toward creating streetscapes that comfort the human mind instead of inducing low levels of mental stress, as some recent studies have shown they do.

Of the two buildings below, guess which one cost more per-unit to build?

*hint: not the traditional one*




Excellent. Thanks for this!
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  #45  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2023, 10:48 PM
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This what A LOT of 'new downtown' construction has looked like along rail stations on Long Island the last dozen years or so. Some of the recent stuff is even junkier looking, with no masonry.

I really would prefer some modern designs, already.


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  #46  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2023, 11:36 PM
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Yeah that's pretty wretched. Its the culture though. Nothing about Long Island says modern to me. Even the new station investments by the LIRR are mostly retrograde ho-hum boring as hell conservative.
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  #47  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2023, 11:39 PM
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I have an inherent bias against large scale stick-frame.

I don't care how safe they say it is, I'd still never live in one of these things.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Jan 24, 2023 at 1:29 AM.
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  #48  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2023, 11:56 PM
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I would have to agree.
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  #49  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2023, 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted by 202_Cyclist View Post
I just have to say again that building in the photo above is one of the ugliest pieces of vomit I have seen. Someone at last call at a bar could design a better building.
Hahaha, I know exactly where that building is... NE corner of Palms Blvd and Motor Ave in the Palms neighborhood of LA. I used to drive by that all the time when commuting and would contemplate how a building could possibly be so ugly. Only thing going for it is the ground floor retail which is actually pretty well leased up.
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  #50  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2023, 12:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
I have an inherent bias against large scale stick-frame.

I don't care how safe they say it is, I'd never live in one of these things.
Massive fire in Houston apartment under construction, 2014.
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  #51  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2023, 1:15 AM
mhays mhays is offline
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Although most of my career has been in the concrete and steel construction world, I have to defend woodframes.

First of all, they're up to modern fire codes. Any significant fire seems to be the under-construction buildings without sprinklers or wall coverings. For completed-building fires I mostly hear about highrises.

Second, the engineering and standards have gotten a lot better. The building envelope stuff seems far better, with re-skins no longer that common. We know more about acoustics and they can be a lot quieter for moderate added cost. They deal with seismic zones just fine.

You can build a flimsy woodframe (think Office Space) but the higher-priced buildings aren't like that.

I live in a concrete highrise and plan to keep it that way, but the gap seems to be a lot closer.
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  #52  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2023, 1:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LAsam View Post
Hahaha, I know exactly where that building is... NE corner of Palms Blvd and Motor Ave in the Palms neighborhood of LA. I used to drive by that all the time when commuting and would contemplate how a building could possibly be so ugly. Only thing going for it is the ground floor retail which is actually pretty well leased up.
Yep, you're right! That building is so intriguingly ugly. It's hard for a design to look that bad.
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  #53  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2023, 4:26 AM
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
Does Miami have height limits?

As for NJ, why are we talking about townhouses?
Depends on the area. Some areas have 8-story height limits. You tend to see a lot of 8-story buildings, 12-story buildings and 16-story buildings due to height limits in certain zoning areas in different municipalities (Miami, Miami Beach. Coral Gables, Fort Lauderdale, Sunny Isles...etc all have different rules). Then there are the FAA height limits which is why you see so many 649-foot towers in Miami or the 1049-footers being proposed now and 497/8-footers in Fort Lauderdale.
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  #54  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2023, 9:49 AM
Encolpius Encolpius is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigs View Post
Yep, you're right! That building is so intriguingly ugly. It's hard for a design to look that bad.
What's wrong with you people? Mumbled, half-hearted complaining about bland banal architecture blah blah, and the one building in this thread that actually looks fun to live in, with balconies, angles, curves (and particularly the penthouse apartments with the picture windows and pitched skylights) is the one you castigate?

The faux-historicist examples upthread are embarrassing and sad. What an inauthentic way to affect a 'sense of place'. Whereas this building actually does seem to belong to Southern California. De gustibus non est disputandum, but it also seems to belong to a more optimistic and energetic cultural moment.

Besides, it's actually good urbanism for its context. Staggered massing, stepbacks, a strong corner, and good street-level engagement across its entire frontage (Google Maps shows it currently has two curbside restaurants and other active businesses, as someone commented). Yeah, the parking podium, but that gives the apartments awesome views and allows the restaurants to offer customer parking (which might be more difficult economically if parking was underground, and the building is in LA). The parking entrance is on a back alley and doesn't interrupt the street frontage. Its neighbors on this corner, btw, are gas stations and parking lots.
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  #55  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2023, 12:17 PM
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Give me a break. That building is horrible. It looks like an office building in a provincial city in Kazakhstan.
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  #56  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2023, 2:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhays View Post
Although most of my career has been in the concrete and steel construction world, I have to defend woodframes.

First of all, they're up to modern fire codes. Any significant fire seems to be the under-construction buildings without sprinklers or wall coverings. For completed-building fires I mostly hear about highrises.

Second, the engineering and standards have gotten a lot better. The building envelope stuff seems far better, with re-skins no longer that common. We know more about acoustics and they can be a lot quieter for moderate added cost. They deal with seismic zones just fine.
i understand all of that, but i still don't like stick-frame for large scale buildings.

SFHs or small-scale multi-family, fine.

but once you're over 3 floors or a dozen or so units, i'd like to see a more permanent and robust structural system employed like masonry, concrete or steel.

but that apparently no longer pencils in our disposable throw-away society.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Jan 24, 2023 at 3:14 PM.
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  #57  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2023, 3:04 PM
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I do think it's true that "sense of place" and good built form don't always align.

I mean, the "dingbat" apartment building in LA is pretty ugly, and also not pedestrian friendly. It is however a rare example of a postwar regional vernacular, something you'd absolutely not see somewhere like Boston.

In an ideal world, I would prefer to have architecture which is both beautiful and vernacular (providing a sense of place), though I will settle for one of the two. I do think there's too much danger of pushing a one-sized fits all aesthetic onto the entire country. even if it's a trade up from the postmodern crud of the previous decades. Neighborhoods full of ugly buildings can be vibrant, unique places, in spite of - and sometimes because of - that ugliness.
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  #58  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2023, 3:28 PM
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I mean, the "dingbat" apartment building in LA is pretty ugly, and also not pedestrian friendly. It is however a rare example of a postwar regional vernacular, something you'd absolutely not see somewhere like Boston.
while nowhere near as well-known or common as the LA dingbat, some outter chicago nabes/inner-ring burbs that were developed in the 50s/60s maintained the city's tradition of building masonry flats in some areas, but with very different post-war styling that makes them look quite different from the early 20th century stuff.

i don't know if that's enough to qualify as a bonafide example of "a postwar regional vernacular", but i've never seen post-war 2/3-flats like these in other cities at scale.


https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9768...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9709...7i16384!8i8192
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  #59  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2023, 3:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Encolpius View Post



What's wrong with you people? Mumbled, half-hearted complaining about bland banal architecture blah blah, and the one building in this thread that actually looks fun to live in, with balconies, angles, curves (and particularly the penthouse apartments with the picture windows and pitched skylights) is the one you castigate?

The faux-historicist examples upthread are embarrassing and sad. What an inauthentic way to affect a 'sense of place'. Whereas this building actually does seem to belong to Southern California. De gustibus non est disputandum, but it also seems to belong to a more optimistic and energetic cultural moment.

Besides, it's actually good urbanism for its context. Staggered massing, stepbacks, a strong corner, and good street-level engagement across its entire frontage (Google Maps shows it currently has two curbside restaurants and other active businesses, as someone commented). Yeah, the parking podium, but that gives the apartments awesome views and allows the restaurants to offer customer parking (which might be more difficult economically if parking was underground, and the building is in LA). The parking entrance is on a back alley and doesn't interrupt the street frontage. Its neighbors on this corner, btw, are gas stations and parking lots.
It's ugly but it's kinda fun. I could see it becoming a kitschy local landmark in 30 years. Cover the blank walls with some brightly colored murals, add some awnings and signage to the ground floor retail, add some landscaping and it could even look nice.

Just down the street from there is another 5+1 on a corner lot with ground floor retail. It's totally generic and inoffensive, as these things go, but we don't need entire neighborhoods full of these things. It's good to break up the monotony with some weird and ugly architectural one-offs. I'm not a big fan of that faux traditional crap either, especially when an entire neighborhood is developed in that style.
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  #60  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2023, 3:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
i understand all of that, but i still don't like stick-frame for large scale buildings.

SFHs or small-scale multi-family, fine.

but once you're over 3 floors or a dozen or so units, i'd like to see a more permanent and robust structural system employed like masonry, concrete or steel.

but that apparently no longer pencils in our disposable throw-away society.
Would you live in a mass timber building?
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