Transition areas between metros

[McBane]

Just the fact that there is a debate about where Trenton/Mercer belongs is evidence enough for me. If you can't call Mercer County a transitional area, then I don't know what that definition means.

As far as commuting goes, the reason why more residents commute to NJ or NY than to Philly/PA suburbs is because of money. Simply put, home values and taxes are lower in PA, so it wouldn't make much sense to live in NJ and work in PA but it makes a lot of sense to live in Mercer and commute to points north where the prices increase as you get closer and closer to NYC. Hence a lot of office workers in Trenton and Princeton live in Bucks County but very few are living in Mercer and commuting to PA.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by McBane

Just the fact that there is a debate about where Trenton/Mercer belongs is evidence enough for me. If you can't call Mercer County a transitional area, then I don't know what that definition means.

Exactly!

This need by some to lump certain tweener zones into one bin or the other runs 100% against what it means to be "transitional" in the first place. It is entirely possible for them to be oriented towards both.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by McBane

Just the fact that there is a debate about where Trenton/Mercer belongs is evidence enough for me. If you can't call Mercer County a transitional area, then I don't know what that definition means.

As far as commuting goes, the reason why more residents commute to NJ or NY than to Philly/PA suburbs is because of money. Simply put, home values and taxes are lower in PA, so it wouldn't make much sense to live in NJ and work in PA but it makes a lot of sense to live in Mercer and commute to points north where the prices increase as you get closer and closer to NYC. Hence a lot of office workers in Trenton and Princeton live in Bucks County but very few are living in Mercer and commuting to PA.

Well said.

On top of that, PA and NJ have tax reciprocity. Meaning (in this case, at least), you pay where you live and not where you work. So given that PA's income tax is a fraction of New Jersey's, especially as your income increases because NJ has a very progressive tax, there's actually a massive incentive to move to PA if you work in Mercer.

[Docere]

A bit dated...

Work in Manhattan

Hudson NJ 58,423 22.1%
Westchester NY 79,643 18.7%
Nassau NY 94,485 15.2%
Bergen NJ 61,253 14.3%
Rockland NY 17,029 12.9%
Putnam NY 4,416 9.2%
Essex NJ 28,076 8.6%
Monmouth NJ 22,425 7.7%
Middlesex NJ 25,765 7.1%
Union NJ 16,305 6.8%
Orange NY 9,610 6.3%
Suffolk NY 41,121 6.1%
Fairfield CT 24,831 5.9%
Pike PA 1,004 5.2%
Morris NJ 11,516 4.8%
Somerset NJ 6,243 4.1%
Passaic NJ 8,402 4%
Mercer NJ 5,654 3.5%
Dutchess NY 3,963 3.1%
Sussex NJ 949 2%
Hunterdon NJ 1,176 1.9%
Ulster NY 1,565 1.9%
Ocean NJ 2,964 1.4%
Litchfield CT 1,055 1.1%
New Haven CT 1,584 0.4%

http://demographia.com/db-nyc-employ.pdf

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Yeah. But how far? Those 5 commuters aren't going all the way to NYC.

They're either staying in Mercer or driving into Middlesex County or thereabouts. That's what's so weird about the definition. How are commuters who live and work in Mercer County counted in that metric? As commuting to the NY metro, I presume?

I agree that Mercer is unequivocally a transition county, but I don't think this proves that Mercer isn't a core NY metro county. If Philadelphia wasn't there then commuters from Mercer to Middlesex would be solid support for adding Mercer to NY Metro.

[SAN Man]

Along our south edge of SD metro, this is the transition area between a metro of 3.5 million and 2.2 million.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Docere

A bit dated...

Work in Manhattan

Hudson NJ 58,423 22.1%
Westchester NY 79,643 18.7%
Nassau NY 94,485 15.2%
Bergen NJ 61,253 14.3%
Rockland NY 17,029 12.9%
Putnam NY 4,416 9.2%
Essex NJ 28,076 8.6%
Monmouth NJ 22,425 7.7%
Middlesex NJ 25,765 7.1%
Union NJ 16,305 6.8%
Orange NY 9,610 6.3%
Suffolk NY 41,121 6.1%
Fairfield CT 24,831 5.9%
Pike PA 1,004 5.2%
Morris NJ 11,516 4.8%
Somerset NJ 6,243 4.1%
Passaic NJ 8,402 4%
Mercer NJ 5,654 3.5%
Dutchess NY 3,963 3.1%
Sussex NJ 949 2%
Hunterdon NJ 1,176 1.9%
Ulster NY 1,565 1.9%
Ocean NJ 2,964 1.4%
Litchfield CT 1,055 1.1%
New Haven CT 1,584 0.4%

http://demographia.com/db-nyc-employ.pdf

My takeaway effect is you can see the "domino effect" of adding far-flung counties based on commuting patterns. Interesting also that Fairfield (not in NYC MSA but in the CSA) has a higher share of workers in Manhattan than many counties that are (like Ocean County NJ).

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by theOGalexd

Right on the line of Comal/Hays county between San Antonio and Austin is the last of undeveloped land between the 2 metros. Can't see it being more than 5-10 years before it's completely filled because of the insane growth of New Braunfels and San Marcos.

Well, I anticipate that the major upgrades they just made on 35 between these two will lead to new commercial and master planned communities.

[Comrade]

I still don't understand how they designate metros.

There is no major transition between Salt Lake's metro and the metros north/south of the county.

This is the south transition - between Salt Lake and Utah County at a place affectionately known as Point of the Mountain:



It's probably even more egregious on the northern border heading into the Ogden metro:



idk

[Shawn]

For the Boston/Providence line, you can't really go by counties. It's on the municipal level, and it's hazy. It's probably the exact town I grew up in: Foxboro.

It comes down to accent. There are differences in the Mass and RI versions of the Boston accent: Rhode Islanders and some Southeastern Massholes balance their non-rhotic accents between front oral posture (New York) and rear oral posture (Boston). My family that lives in or near Rhode Island say "CAW-fee" and "Red Sawks" in a slightly less pronounced way than New Yorkers, while my Boston and New Hampshire family say "CAH-fee" and "Red Sahks" like you're supposed to.

[craigs]

Originally Posted by Shawn

For the Boston/Providence line, you can't really go by counties. It's on the municipal level, and it's hazy. It's probably the exact town I grew up in: Foxboro.

It comes down to accent. There are differences in the Mass and RI versions of the Boston accent: Rhode Islanders and some Southeastern Massholes balance their non-rhotic accents between front oral posture (New York) and rear oral posture (Boston). My family that lives in or near Rhode Island say "CAW-fee" and "Red Sawks" in a slightly less pronounced way than New Yorkers, while my Boston and New Hampshire family say "CAH-fee" and "Red Sahks" like you're supposed to.

Yep. I have two cousin Roberts, and I distinguished between them by using the accents they used when they said their own name: the one who grew up in Bellingham, near the RI border, was "Bwob," and the other one in NH was "Baahb."

[JManc]

I always saw Foxboro as the midway point between Providence and Boston. Where people gradually begin to sound less like Lois Griffin and more like Matt Damon in Good Will Hunting.

[Docere]

Overall is Rhode Island more similar to Massachusetts or Connecticut?

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Docere

Overall is Rhode Island more similar to Massachusetts or Connecticut?

Massachusetts by far. The RI/ CT border area is sparsely populated so very little integration comparatively. RI has Boston to the north and Fall River directly to the east.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by Docere

Overall is Rhode Island more similar to Massachusetts or Connecticut?

It's not remotely close: Massachusetts, all the way. The only difference between Southeastern Mass and Rhode Island is that RI is somehow even more Portuguese. Which is a good thing, if you've ever had the pleasure of living around your pick of Portuguese bakeries and a lot of hot mixed Irish-Portuguese ladies/men. Oh, and I guess whether you root for the Sawks or the Sahks.

RI and Southeast Mass share that last bit of blue collar, industrial Southern New England culture that is now totally absent from Connecticut. Places like Brockton, Taunton, Attleboro, Pawtucket, and East Providence. The old "Costume Jewelry Belt," where as late as the 1990s some 80% of the country's inexpensive jewelry was made. If you have a high school or university class ring, it was probably made in one of those towns. Especially Attleboro (Balfour). And then you have the the whaling ports which still share a healthy commercial fishing culture: Fall River, New Bedford, Bristol, and Newport.

You could make an argument that deep South County - Westerly and abouts - are indistinguishable from the New London area. I can buy that, but that's only around 10% of the RI's population. Everybody else lives within 15 miles of the MA border. Just like in New Hampshire.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by JManc

I always saw Foxboro as the midway point between Providence and Boston. Where people gradually begin to sound less like Lois Griffin and more like Matt Damon in Good Will Hunting.

That's exactly right. Half the women sound like Lois, half sound like Rachel Dratch or how Amy Poehler slips into whenever she's interviewed by Seth Meyers. Those two always bring out the best in each other.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by craigs

Yep. I have two cousin Roberts, and I distinguished between them by using the accents they used when they said their own name: the one who grew up in Bellingham, near the RI border, was "Bwob," and the other one in NH was "Baahb."

That sounds just right. Bellingham is about 10 minutes west of Foxboro on I-495 or 20 minutes on 140.

[craigs]

Originally Posted by Shawn

That sounds just right. Bellingham is about 10 minutes west of Foxboro on I-495 or 20 minutes on 140.

Jesus, you're right--I didn't realize how close the two towns are. Mind you, I was a small child when I lived in that area--I could swear that we went sledding down the embankment and onto the roadbed of the then-unfinished 495 in Bellingham before my family moved to California.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by Don't Be That Guy

Youngstown, OH is slightly closer to downtown Pittsburgh than it is to downtown Cleveland but isn't considered to be in Pittsburgh's orbit. I don't know if it's the outer limits of Cleveland's orbit or just its own thing.

yeah, ytown is solidly right in-between cleveland and pittsburgh.

it's generally thought of as ne ohio rather than metro cleveland or pittsburgh.

of connectivity note, ohio's only commuter rail service ran from cleveland to youngstown until it was discontinued in 1977.

[mrnyc]

akron is not part of of 'greater cleveland' aka cleveland's msa -- driving downtown to downtown they are 40min apart from each other.

however, cleveland-akron-canton is a csa.

cleveland and akron are directly separated by the cuyahoga valley national park, but there is some connected suburban sprawl on either side. it's thinner on the western side as there is another state park there -- hinckley reservation.

also, there is also a bit of rural separation to the east of this suburban cleveland-akron-canton csa and youngstown (ie., between ravenna and lordstown). it's not like cle or pitts have quite grown into greater youngstown, but they will probably eventually all be connected someday.